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Upon further investigation I think you're right. I connected the gate from the KSP into the cv input of the VCA, output of VCO (saich) into VCA input. VCA stays open with the signal from Saich, note on and note off from the KSP works, but it's on top of the open signal from Saich. If I reverse this and connect KSP gate to VCA input, and VCO output to VCA cv input, no open signal from saich and note on works, but when I release the key note on happens again... hope that makes sense

-- TheSoundGardxn

in that case I would try to find a thread on modwiggler regarding the vca - this may be a known issue - is this the v1 or the v2?

they've been concentrating on the fenix(?) for quite a while, I think - so maybe not got round to another run of their modules

Acording to what you say here, I would need multimode filter and a utility module so I've put Instruo I-o47 and Frap Tools 321.

-- Arrus

utility modules, not a utility module!

it sounds as if the vca is not closing properly - nb I don't have any of these modules

try taking the vca out of the patch - try gate from keystep straight into the vca cv input... does that behave as expected - ie when you press a key the note starts and when you release it the note ends? remember a gate is a type of envelope that just goes fully on, sustains (whilst the key is pressed, in your case) and then off again

if this is working what happens when you ignore step 4 above and then manually trigger the envelope with the button on ceis?

no

you need something to clock the pico seq - you would then plug the v/oct from pico seq into the v/oct in of plaits and the gate out of pico seq into the trigger or level* of plaits and then plug the outputs of plaits into the mixer

I think it would be an excellent idea for you to go to the eurorack subforum of modwiggler and read through some of the stickies there - especially this thread: https://www.modwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=43964

*ideally you would first send the gate out of the pico seq to an envelope generator of some kind so that the envelope of plaits is not just on and then off and then on again

vactrols aren't massively expensive - they are compared to a lot of op amps - but not compared to 2614s that are in many vcas etc these days (mutable use them extensively for example) or to stm32 etc chips (MCUs) - there are some restrictions due to what they are made from (they're not RoHs compiant for example) but it can be done reasonably cheaply - look at the dplpg, for example - 2 vactrols and reasonably priced

one point to note is that vactrols are all (as far as I know) through hole - which does add to the cost, especially if the rest is smd based - adds more work that is probably done by hand, compared to smd which will be done by a robot!

at retail prices in uk vactrols are roughly between £3 and £8 + vat - 2164s are about £3 + vat iirc and stms can be over £10 + vat and most mutable modules (built in france) are in the £180-300 price bracket

the 200 series, which the tta/buchla modules are, never had the preset-programmability, that was only in the later 200e series - which are eye wateringly expensive and still being manufactured by BUSA

i suspect the tta/buchla modules will almost definitely be manufactured in thailand where tta are now based - so labour cost is way lower than BUSA - as I think they are actually built in USA - and I'm pretty sure they will be mostly smd based as it's quicker and cheaper for pick'n'place manufacturing - and only the vactrols, panel furniture and finishing will be done by hand

I think the buchla/tta modules are a fantastic development

great for eurorack users - add a bit of authentic buchla for not much cash!

I kept looking at the 208c - but I'm pretty sure I'll just get some of these instead - much more fun and interesting to buy a module every so often than to save up and buy a 208C - 200 is much easier to find (even repeatedly) than nearly 3k in one go!

the only people who seem to object to them are existing buchla users - and the main argument is this is not what Don wanted - true, but in his lifetime the b-company were not making cheap ass clones of everything and anything they could lay their grubby little hands on - faced with that or this I think Don would have (if he were alive today) have gone with licencing over the alternative due to it, being the lesser of 2 evils...

I don't intend getting a bigger rack
-- david23

no one intends to get a bigger rack, but at some point you realise you need one! and then the floodgates are open

I started with a 6u/72hp case (Bastl Marton) - after less than 6 months there was only 12hp left... & I wanted Maths... but wanted to keep all the modules I already had... simple solution - buy a bigger case - bought a Mantis and Maths... kept the Marton... filled the Mantis within another 6 months and started putting modules in the Marton... then I discovered DIY & Video Synthesis... now about 4 years later, I'm at approx 1500hp - with the rails, ears and 19" rack space for another 12u of 84hp... just need power for it...

I've not bought a case since the Mantis - all have been DIY - including the power supplies - I favour the Befaco Excalibus for that - not the cheapest, but excellent value and pretty resilient - reverse power protection etc

sequencers are difficult... very personal...

I have a pico seq - I find that it's not particularly easy to program and resetting the sequence is a pita - i just reload the sequence once it has stopped - it is easier than actually resetting it which involves pressing both tiny buttons - either together or one after the other I can't remember exactly - but difficult when there are other modules next to it

as with a lot of small modules the ergonomics are poor - I have a feeling this also applies to the mimetic digitalis - but that might just be me and my opinions/experiences

I much prefer modules that leave space to actually get to the controls, especially ones where I am doing a lot of effectively programming - if the pico seq was 6-8hp and had a proper reset button and preferably a cv reset and a bigger screen it would be a fantastic module for the purpose I want it for - sequencing song parts on a sinfonion - as it is it's ok - it has other things going for it - 16 memory slots etc

I'm tempted by theblack sequencer - it' s just a shame you can't individually clock the channels

Hi - the thumbnail and the actual rack differ - I suspect the actual rack is the real one you want us to look at!

the biggest problem - as so often - is the lack of utility modules

I'd add a starter utility set of kinks, shades and veils:

kinks is discontinued - maybe in stores stilll - wmd/ssf toolbox is a good substitute

shades is useful for attenuversion, offset and mixing - all of which are incredibly useful

veils - you can never have too many vcas - cascading so also a mixer, lots of gain so can add overdrive, or work as an external input (or 4) and is variable between linear and exponential so suitable for all types of signal

what is this concept of redundancy?
try thinking outside the box a bit - even if you don't use the TM for generating v/oct, it can be used as a modulation source - or as an extra v/oct source when you get another vco or for transposing another v/oct source (precision adder may be needed) etc etc etc

I think it matters. The amount of error in a hand-tweaked knob will vary over time while a decent LFO will be relatively stable over time. I think we can sense that error (if not hear it), and that error is what I think contributes to interesting sound/music. They say guitar playing is all in the fingers. Keith Richards' feel will never be as precise as Steve Vai, but I know who I'd rather listen to. Of course no one else cares, but that's what makes something interesting to me.
Barring random and chaos modules, which can be unmusical in some uses, If we all have the same precise utilities, the same LFOs, Maths, Kinks, etc., there are only so many original combinations to make an interesting sound. What ultimately differentiates any of this music then? I would say the human error is what differentiates it all. Separating into utilities-are-more-important-than-oscillators (or vice versa) "camps" sort of takes away from the OP's fun thought exercise.

-- farkas

well I do agree with you - but you can always mix in a little random or chaos with other modulation

& I'd definitely rather listen to Keith play guitar than Steve Vai or any one like that

no one type of module is more important than another - but in most cases you will get more out of fewer sound sources and a decent selection of other modules, than out of more sound sources and fewer other modules

I also think it massively depends on how big your rack is - the smaller it is the easier it is to play it manually - the bigger it is the more the need for modulation - and as I said I mainly use modulation, but I also tweak things over time - but not to the extent I have seen a lot of performers - some of whom appear to be just touching knobs as opposed to actually wiggling them

a lot of the time I have the modular running whilst I do other things - so it's difficult to tweak constantly

the modules appear to be dwarfed by the controller - almost an afterthought

if it was me bigger case, bigger modules - better ergonomics, better synth...

looks very low on mixing capability th eamix only has 3 channels and you have 5 + of drums

try refreshing the rack!

Something that is of interest to me in this discussion is the amount of cv vs. hands-on control that modules have. Is the machine doing the tweaking or is the human doing the tweaking when it comes to getting a great sound?
-- farkas
hmmm - does it really matter?

I tend to use modulation instead of wiggling knobs myself, I only have 2 hands and at the end of the day it really just comes down to taste, doesn't it? - I want to move this knob 30 degrees and back every 10 seconds - just plug in an attenuated lfo - does exactly the same thing

I have a friend who plays guitar - thinks he's good because he can play (strum) lots of different songs - and thinks that a guitar is an instrument and a synthesizer is a machine - although he does say I play guitar like a synth and synth like a guitar - I tell him that a guitar is just 6 analog oscillators and the ability to play is just a combination of muscle memory and taste

in the end it boils down to does it sound good - the harsh reality is that outside of a small group of musicians - no one cares how you make a sound, tune or indeed whole song - just whether it sounds good or not

why the constraint on size? masochism?

these maybe the modules you want but you do not have the modules you need to get the modules you want to play together nicely

you are trying to do too much in too small a space and you will probably have an unpleasant playing experience

there are at least 5 potential voices there - and no mixing - so it won't work as you expect anyway - in fact it just won't work

throw it away and strip back your requirements to the bare minimum and start again - preferably in a bigger case (Mantis is good and reasonably priced as is the lc9) so that you may actually enjoy playing your instrument

links is still 'in production' - well hasn't been 'discontinued' yet - probably will do sooner or later
kinks is discontinued but last time I looked there were some still available in stores
wmd/ssf toolbox is a good substitute for kinks if you can't find one though

Emilie is discontinuing anything that has the old aesthetic (coloured knob caps) or does not sell well

if you don't have much room for other utilities
-- troux

then your case is too small!

I don't find Falistri overcomplicated and cluttered.
-- plragde

good - my impression is just from looking at pictures of it - I'm sure it's a great module, just not for me!

some modules are selling out before the restock emails are sent out - possibly due to pre-orders - the email from Blicken stated that they had received Optomixes, but they had sold out before they sent the mail!!! so if you particularly want something just order it and have patience

it's not just make noise - everyone has been affected to some extent - and it's not over yet!!
not only is manufacturing capacity down for ICs etc, but shipping of components has been problematic and manufacture of actual modules and then shipping them and then retailers etc etc - it all adds up

as you already have the dannysound timbre - maybe patching you own complex vco is the way to go?
maybe double up on the vcos you do have - using one pair for a slightly detuned bassline and the other for a waveshaped complex oscillator with the timbre

just bought a twisted electrons octopus cv sequencer(not something i had planned)and dont know if it will be any good for Dark Ambient????
-- Broken-Form

why do you think it may not be any good for dark ambient? sequencers don't care what type of music they are making - they just do what they are told!

falistri always looks over complicated and cluttered - people complain about maths being difficult to understand, which to me is utter rubbish

there's also a really good reason for buying maths over anyother similar module - the maths illustrated supplement, which is a marvelous learning resource - even if you don't buy the module read the supplement a few times - you may then end up buying the module...

as for availability of Maths - I saw Blicken Synth in UK has received 2 shipments from Make Noise in the last few days including Maths - so they should be starting to filter into other shops soon

EDITED Sep 7th 2021, 21:59

disting is a great module - don't forget to buy an sd card though - creating a favourites list is one of the best ways of using the disting

the menu structure is actually quite shallow

most people's complaints about it are due to expectations, wanting to try everything in one go rather than using a few algorithms and getting to understand them well - other modules often do not need manuals, or not after a few sessions with them - however, as disting has 100ish algorithms, it's more like 100 modules - I would have to have all the manuals in front of me if I bought 100 modules at a time and I would be as overwhelmed as someone trying to use all 100 disting algorithms in a week - I've had one for years and 90+% of it's time has been spent as a tape delay - even now I have a magneto, it still gets used as a tape delay 50% of the time

good advice from @joesh there

but also add - read a lot of newbie posts - especially ones where they want to make similar music to you

in addition to the go to modulargrid - the best advice is to not worry about the size of the case to start with think about
- what modules do you want
- what modules do you need to support the modules you want

this almost definitely involves asking advice on forums

once you have this add 30% extra for expansion and you will have the size of the case that you need

at the bottom of the rack you will see the power requirements of the modules - for any modules that don't have power draw listed - and for expansion hp, I use 10mA/rail/hp as a rough guide for power requirements

add up all the power requirements and then add another 25-30% for overhead - this is needed otherwise you may have issues, especially when turning the modular on as some modules use significantly more when starting up than when in a normal running state (mostly digital ones)

small cases are often a false economy as they are usually very expensive per hp and fill up incredibly quickly - they are great for taking a few modules from a large rack in order to focus on them (learning a single new module for example) but are really not so great for starter racks

great ideas from @Ronin1973 there.,.
the op also mentioned generative - so I'd suggest maybe having a think about how that would fit in as well - usually want more layers of modulation - modulate the modulation.. so there is movement over time - possibly more vcas too for the sme reason

EDITED Aug 27th 2021, 18:48

Ugh! It happened again - I crafted an long, detailed response about my studio set up and my real-world example, but when I hit submit it got lost in the ether...
-- TumeniKnobs

half my posts get abandoned for this very reason!

well I wouldn't class Maths as utilities - although it is in a way a collection of utilities - it's often better seen as more of a complex modulation source / swiss army knife module and fantastic learning tool for modular patching and thinking in general - see the "maths illustratated supplement" for ideas

the mixer and mults and vcas(?) though definitely are indispensable utilities - as I am sure you will find the attenuversion and offsets in Maths so useful that you will want them as separate modules (shades, 3*mia etc) very soon - so that you can use Maths for more interesting things

I'd seriously consider adding a quad cascading vca such as veils or the equivalent from intellijel or happy nerding these are near fundamental to synthesis - for processing both audio and modulation signals

that's always how I'd thought of it - this thing!

just remember that disting can only do one (or 2, depending on model) thing at a time - you'll probably find you use it primarily for a one or 2 things after a while - replace them with dedicated modules and continue exploring the disting - I'm currently using mine as an extra vca - AR envelope for noiseout of deckards voice into rings - which is in turn fed though magneto with a wasp filter in the send return loop - sounds epic!

I always used to use mine as a tape echo - then I caved and got an fx aid xl and then magneto - heheh always more modules!

depending on what you want from a rack then a trigger sequencer like steppy may be useful immediately - if the track is predominantly percussion, for example

in a general purpose rack of this size where I would advise keeping to a single (melodic) voice, pams can adequately cover trigger sequencing - as there is not that much to trigger, as well as envelopes, unipolar lfos and looped quantized random cv for generating melodies

at some point you may want to have more control over over melody - and I would expect this to be before wanting a trigger sequencer - in which case a melodic sequencer not a trigger sequencer is what you would want

what a mess
hehehe
maybe instead of the dopefer mixer/vca - something like veils which is both at once would be more appropriate, alm, intelijel and happy nerding make decent alternatives

hmm - seems you are confusing complex oscillator with semi modular - DFAM is a semi modular - or are you talking about the drone grone?

what;s the use case for the quantizer? it would appear superfluous to me - don't the sequencers in mom, dfam and bloom have quantizers built in already? maybe not the dfam?

I've said it before and I'll say it again - more utilities!!!!

but if you don't like patching modules together maybe modular is not for you - 5 modules is a tiny patch! which is fine - but there's a reason that vcos come without filters - so you get to choose which filter (or not) is used with which vco, how many vcos are mixed before hitting a vcf, how those vcos are mixed and filtered - do you want to use an lpg instead of a vca? etc etc

doepfer are great full stop! not just when you are starting out...

I think the more you want to actually do "modular synthesis" as opposed to "just connecting some synthesizer modules together to produce some sounds", the more simple building block modules are important, and even when "just... to produce sounds" the addition of simple building blocks into especially modulation is an inexpensive way to implement complexity - and doepfer are especially good at simple building block modules that mostly do exactly what they say they do

I have quite a few doepfer modules - mostly utilities and filters - and I consider them to be as good quality as any other manufacturer - I've not got an adsr though

maybe some of their modules are a bit poorly documented (possibly lost in translation from german to english) and the odd module doesn't work how you might expect, but the same can be said for almost all manufacturers

and whilst he didn't invent modular synthesis, Dieter did start the eurorack format

@Lugia - yeah - I kind of know what you mean, but I'd call it moving basic utilities into the "expensive" row:

the cost of the 1u row is the same as that of a 3u row in terms of rails, inserts/nuts, screws

the difference in case material is generally negligible - unless possibly made from a very rare wood

hp for hp tiles are less functionally dense than 3u modules so will only cover 1/3rd the functionality or so

and all to save 3.5"...

better to get an extra row of 3u unless there is some overwhelming reason - & the only real one I can think of is overhead baggage size limits

The 1U modules are very practical and somehow space savers.

I'd disagree with this - if you can fit an extra 3u instead of a 1u then go for the 3u - I really don't see the appeal of 1u tiles - except in extremely small cases - and I rarely see the point of them, tbh

a tool like Maths or Quadra. Or maybe both?

I would get one and then think about what best complements that for you - personally I would go maths first because of the illustrated manual

sequencer (steppy?)

what are you trying to sequence?? - if it's plonk then I would just use Pams for now

why? because a single sound source can be copied and processed differently, a few simple modulation sources can be mixed and >modified to become more modulation sources that are more complex

Could you explain a little bit more on how to achieve this? The part of the copied sound source I mean. To what degree can one sound source be copied and modified ?

output of sound source -> multiple -> outputs of multiple to different filters, delays, reverbs, vcas etc etc etc

By doing this, you can then move some of your functions up into the tiles, plus the header gives you three buffered mults (usable as one HUGE buffered mult)

What's the advantage to have many buffered multipliers, is it related to previous question where you would duplicate one sound source/cv signal to multiple outputs?
-- codecks

no a simple passive mult is adequate for most signals within the modular with the exception of v/oct - this needs to be precise if you want to play in tune, especially with other people - once a v/oct signal is quantized you want to use a buffered mult to guarantee that any copy is exact when delivered to the vcos inputs - say you have three vcos and tune them to specific intervals to play chords - you want each one to receive exactly the same pitch information (the root note, usually) so that the chord is in tune - with other signals audio, modulation, gates etc a tiny variation will not make any noticeable difference

as you only have a single vco I would not worry too much about buffered mults - unless you want to modulate filter cutoff with the v/oct - in which case you would need a single buffered mult - you already have 2 on order in links

EDITED Aug 20th 2021, 21:12

I don't think you are missing anything

to mirror a positive waveform to a negative waveform a standard inverter would absolutely do

for the phase offset a short dc coupled delay would work - but if the frequency of the waveform changes the so will the phase offset - so may not be a viable solution

sound design, filtering and arrangement are the obvious ways to prevent clashing frequencies without eq

EDITED Aug 20th 2021, 09:54

guitar pedals tuners - depending on the model they are easy to read and don't take up any rack space - connect with a 3.5 -> 6.5mm cable - and they are no more expensive than modules

if you have a disting you already have a tuner built into that

Is it a case of jumpers at the back to switch between VCA/Mix modes, or is it dependent on how it's patched? If it's the former, I'd maybe be able to live with it, as that's kind of versatile.

-- ryanthegecko

I would check in the manual if I were you - they often hold the answers you are seeking - sometimes manuals can be ambiguous or confusing - so come and ask specific questions if you don't understand something

Good to see you back on MG Jim.

or go very low cost diy - beg/borrow/steal tools and an off cut of wood - there are some cheap ok diy psus out there too (frequency central for example)
and build up modules slowly over time - either diy or used or 'budget'
if you want to keep costs down don't go for expensive trendy modules (unless you can find a used bargain) go for simple building blocks - eg ladik and doepfer modules or similar in diy

initial thoughts:

2 sound sources is 1 too many for this size rack, imo

steppy is a trigger sequencer - which is great if you want to trigger percussion etc, however not great for sequencing melodies, admittedly you could use the scales as I believe that has a small v/oct sequencer in it - but - pams will do random quantized sequences that you can loop and do most of the trigger sequencing that steppy would provide

so I would initially at least drop one of the sound sources and both steppy and scales

if you are planning on using this with other instruments how are you connecting them? keeping them in sync etc? would a midi or dc-coupled audio interface make sense?

advice:
a rough guide to building a decent modular in terms of ratio of modules:

sound sources < sound modifiers < modulation sources < utilities (including anything else like sequencers, output modules, vcas, mixers, switches, logic)

it scales from tiny cases right up to 1000s of hp

why? because a single sound source can be copied and processed differently, a few simple modulation sources can be mixed and modified to become more modulation sources that are more complex

Personally I don't think that this rack is good from the point of learning modular synthesis

a good starting point for learning modular synthesis is a sound source (anything - a cheap used analog vco will do, as will plaits), a sound modifier (a low pass filter - if you want to spend more get a multi effect like fx aid too), a modulation source (I like maths as a starter modulation source - see below), a way to listen (I always suggest a quad cascading vca like veils 1st, but you have the outs) and a way to play it (pams will do fine but is a bit of a pita to program and I can't see the screen in certain lighting conditions) - really useful additions are a utility starter set (mults, unity mixers, basic logic sample and hold, a dc-coupled vca)

why maths? google the maths illustratted supplement - it is a guide to self-patching maths in 32 different ways to get it to do differnt things other than it's most basic and obvious functions - working your way through this multiple times is a fantastic primer for modular synthesis - as all the principles/thought processes learnt will transfer to bigger systems - other modules can be sustituted, but they don't have the same level of

why veils? better bet than the mixer/vca you have - it has more channels, it is dc-coupled so you can use it for cv as well as audio (which is a fundamental technique of modular synthesis) it can be split so that you can use a couple of channels as a vc mixer and still use other channels for other things, it has enough gain to be used as an input module for external instruments if needed

what starter utilities? I usually recommend links, kinks, shades and veils - but kinks is now discontinued - if you can find one buy it! wmd/ssf toolbox is a very capable replacment as it has a lot of the same functions plus a few more - the modules themselves are not important - it is what they do so substituting other modules that cover the same ground is a great idea - just do you research - read manuals etc etc

btw I wouldn't recommend stages as a first modulation source - it's great but complicated and a lot of people find it a bit confusing to use for anything other than simple envelopes despite it's myriad of other functions - including sample and hold - simpler single mode modules are probably better to start with

NB sample and hold is not random - you need to feed it a noise source or random cv signal or any other signal to get anything out of it

do you have one??

i do but I've never tried using the gates before - it definitely does something - there is audio output when both gates are low - but there is too on both gates high which is undocumented

00 does make sense to me - based on reading the manual and understanding a bit about how the underlying circuit probably works - I am playing with this now - I'd say both high and both low are LPF+VCA

think about how switches work - 3 position switches are on/off/on... and low/low is off

hi Nick

I use an es8 as an audio interface and I use an audio track with an impulse that was on the make noise site to send clock (impulse on every 16th note) and send that out to Pams (Pams is set up so that run is start/stopped by the incoming clock) - works for me

this is a very good point racking semi-modulars that cpme with cases drastically increases the cost of the semi-, but as a starting point with fewer modules actually in the case I think they can be useful in suppressing gas!

lfos are not utilities - they are modulation sources

utilities are things like (but not limited to) vcas, mixers, mults, switches, attenuators, offsets...

whilst maths does have some of these functions integrated into it, I find that it is best to see maths as it's own thing (the sum of the whole is more than the total of the parts - see the maths illustrated supplement for details) and duplicate the utility parts (attenuversion/basic mixing) as you will need them sooner or later - they are inexpensive, especially if you buy doepfer for example

there was a period when a lot of digital modules took power from the 5v, but the trend now is to convert +12v to whatever is needed by the mcu (usually 5v or 3.3v)

these modules were often quite power hungry too

most modules use comparatively little -12v (except video, argh)

if your psu has a lot of spare 5v and you have some space in the rack you could consider a usb power module (there are a few available) and charge your phone, power a led lamp etc

What Type of utility modules?
-- darksoul

if you are referring to my signature - effectively all of them - mixers of all sorts, vcas (especially cascading ones), switches, attenuverters etc etc - use for modulation and triggers as well as audio - doepfer almost always has a reasonably priced version of everything (but it looks like you know that already)

what sort of tips?

which of these modules do you own?

what sort of music are you making?

what other gear do you own?

make your rack public and cut and paste the link - helps us help you!