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This looks like I would have a lot of fun with that rig. One thing I see missing is a row or three of buffered mults.
-- zuggamasta

They're probably not missing. You only need buffered mults if you're splitting out a scalar CV to several VCOs, VCFs, etc, so that you can avoid detuning due to voltage sag, and even there, you can then passively mult the buffered CV signal to two or three destinations. Plus, with the advent of all of the inline passive mults, taking up space in all but the most massive systems for that function simply doesn't make sense.

Really fantastic @mowse, I always love the liveliness of your underlying rhythm lines, the accents and dynamics really seem to come out perfectly every time, I've gotta figure that out!! As always, thanks for sharing.

Enjoy!!! :)

Problem is, though, that absolutely NO ONE has come out with a poly-aftertouch keyboard that matches the feel and responsiveness of the CS-80's. I've used the Prophecy, and while it's got a lot going on, the keyboard is more like a typical synth. About the only thing that ever matched the CS-80 feel was the similarly-fussy Prophet T8, and that was only if you'd managed to get a "good" one. And there were plenty that came out of Sequential's factory that weren't "good". But as for the Prophecy, its real magic was in all of those extra expression controls; in retrospect, it's a good thing that it WAS only a monosynth, because even if you were playing the keyboard with the right hand, your left hand tended to stay camped out on those controls.

Sounds like a new module idea @Lugia, "press a button and get a random Oblique Strategy" 🤣

The Oblique Strategies is an INCREDIBLY useful mind-jogger in the studio. I was introduced to them back during my undergrad by the producer Mike Poole, when we were all at MTSU, back in the early 1980s. I definitely recommend having an offline version, though...try here: http://www.rtqe.net/ObliqueStrategies/ I also think I have a VST plug (or M4L object?) on the multitrack machine that allows you to embed them into your workflow for quickie consultations.

Got it! Thanks for the info.

It depends a lot on where you live, how big an antenna you can set up and weather conditions... YMMV never applied so profoundly as with this one :)

You will also want to dedicate an offset and one, or even two attenuators to be able to take very fine grain control over the tuning!

Nice! I've been thinking about getting one, sounds like it's pretty good?

Oh thanks that's a great suggestion, happily I already have this lovely little module!!

It's surprisingly useful as a noise source, even when there's nothing juicy to pick up :)

I think I could setup a huge SW antenna where I live now, I might look into doing that next summer when the weather is a bit better...

I also keep meaning to look into a little transmitter for it, send some sounds through the air and pick them back up again with that little dark black cauldron!

You should check out the RF Nomad if you're into short wave @Kel_

Hi Kel_,

Ah eBay okay :-) I was hoping for a dealer that I might have known already. All right, will further look and if I can't find anything I might one day consider an eBay purchase. For the moment I have enough modules on my wish list, I can buy from my regular dealers, that (could) make me bankrupt so I am good for the moment ;-)

Yes true, at least we can buy elsewhere in Europe, though you got some lovely module manufacturers in the UK. The biggest concern I have will be the prices of Instruo in 2021, they are already expensive as they are now but after the Brexit I am afraid they become even more unaffordable :-( Instruo just being one example, you got quite a few interesting manufacturers.

I am going to do soon my last few orders with some UK websites "before it's too late" ;-)

Sigh... then perhaps in 10 or 20 years again ;-)

Kind regards, Garfield.

Sure... just on eBay :)

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/193453605334

It's yet to turn up, but I have no reason to doubt it will - I can let you know if you like?

Haha... it's a load of ol' cobblers hey!

At least you will have the rest of EU to order from hehe, we here in the UK will have no trade deal with anyone, except the possibility of selling blue cheese to the Japanese, who invariably have a dairy intolerance...

Our illustrious Prime Minister thinks will save us along with a deal with Australia for Tim Tams - whoop!

I jest not:

Yeah! The old Mowse is back :-) Hinting towards your style and Moog usage that's very recognisable :-D

If this is what you call "just a random patch and jam" then keep that stuff coming, forget about the "serious" stuff, this is good enough for me!

I fully enjoyed it and thank you very much for sharing your random stuff! Kind regards, Garfield.

Hi Kel_,

Where did you found that Cuvave? I can't find it here in Germany, did you found a UK website where it can be ordered from? Till end of December I can order from the UK websites before taxes might complicate ordering stuff... :-)

Kind regards, Garfield.

I just regret the lack of stereo out, but maybe I can cheat with quad vca :)

That's what I was thinking! Your rig looks really interesting. Your rig really makes me think about 1) how much modulation is necessary (I think I might move some things around because PNW, Maths, Batumi, Stages, and Quadra seems very unnecessary), and 2) how many oscillators is a good amount.

Your rack seems like the opposite of mine.. a lot of oscillators and very little (?) modulation?

The Hexmix VCA + Quadrax/Kermit seems really interesting... Quad VCA + Quadrax might be enough for me.

Do you think Links/Kinks could help save some space and replace some functionality of the modulation sources I've got? (PNW, Maths, Batumi, Stages) I'm thinking that even without more, I'd like to get rid of the stages..

May I ask what you're using the Sequential Switch for most of the time?

This is what I'm playing with now:

Got a little bit of space, so could try to add some of the things Lugia suggested (logic, attenuverters, more VCAs), I could bring the Stages back, I could add some effects..

Always open to suggestions :)

Made a fast deal with @alibu, very nice trader with good care. Would trade again with pleasure.

I quite fancy Ripples, but I think I will run of rack before I get one :)

You're sailing very close to the wind on VCAs with this edit. You only have two now, and since the Loquelic (I think) has no amp envelope of its own, one of those will need to permanently allocated to that. This seems like not enough.

You could use Disting I guess but since you have 1hp left over (unforgivable) a better option may be to replace Mixup with a smaller mixer and a dual VCA. There are loads of options. (It would be better to choose a mixer which works for CV and audio; the Mixup is for audio only.)

Huge appreciation for websdr here too - amazing!!!

Sure, go for the VCA too, those are always useful :)

...and yeah, what Jim said re. output module! I used one in the beginning because I thought I needed one, now I just go directly to my mixer and attenuate there, there's enough headroom. Like with all signals, you should turn down the appropriate input attenuator and main fader before plugging anything in and bring the levels up slowly paying attention not to clip the inputs (although this can be fun on some analogue desks ;) )

a quad vca, such as veils, in first batch of modules is a great idea

output modules are not always needed - it really depends on what you are plugging into

unless you absolutely need balanced, then you may need nothing other than adapter cables and/or attenuators, which are useful anyway

veils will work fine as a mono unbalanced output for example

Thanks for you answer! I feel confident it's a good step! :)

I unfortunately have no iPad... Is there any equivalent as an app for macOS?

Would you think I should definitely get VCAs in the beginning?
And could give me your thoughts on the Output module? I've also checked Rosie and the Xpan as alternatives, for example. also the Intellijel options...

I googled around a bit, I'd guess it's out there somewhere @Lugia but you'd have to hunt a bit. If you're into shortwave though I check in on this site now and then (also funnily enough based in the Netherlands), plenty of weird beeps and boops. http://websdr.ewi.utwente.nl:8901/

Ahah... well in that case I say go for it.

Just don't set your heart on ending up with what you have described here, as I mentioned previously, once you get hands on you will have epiphanies that will change your perspective and outlook! Take your time and enjoy :)

As an aside, in the mean time, do you have an iPad? If so I highly recommend checking out some of the granular apps, Borderlands is outstanding and all the Apesoft granular apps, simply outstanding e.g.

http://www.apesoft.it/stria/

" I can't decide if I'm just lusting for cool oscillators because they're fun, or if I really need 4 oscillators in this system. I'm confused on how you would suggest going about this, especially with the Plaits and the BIA in the case, I feel like those are 2 sound sources that might be hard to complement... of course I could be wrong.... do you see it as simply playing the Plaits and an analog osc with the same sequence, going to the same filter and becoming 1 sound"

Yes, limit yourself to two oscillators to learn how to modulate them! I have Plaits and BIA in my small 6u system and what I do is feed them into my hex vca and modulate them with Quadrax and Kermit LFOs in random patterns for pure variety. Modulation and CV is key to modular. You can take one oscillator and split it up many ways to create a palette of tones. That is what I really enjoy doing. I modulate BIA so it has a percussion and bass sounds for a full track.

So...how would you send an inverted envelope to your Sisters VCF?

Oh, snap! No attenuverters! C'mon guys...also, I would suggest some more VCAs be added, since this thing's got ample modulation sources but there's only four VCAs in evidence that can be used for either the audio OR the modulation/CV level control.

Now, while it might be possible to take this to a two-voice paraphonic system in a space of 2 x 84, this would work loads better in a 2 x 104. Something like a Mantis might be a better pick here. With the extra space, also, you can easily add some attenuverters, a bit of logic to screw with your timing, and make two PROPER voices with two VCOs each, their own VCFs and VCAs, summing down to a proper stereo mixer. And if you were to go with an Intellijel 7U x 104, you'd then have the tile row for some of your basic functions, such as audio I/O, MIDI interfacing, etc. That's what I would recommend, tbh.
-- Lugia

Hi Lugia - Thank you for the insight! Interesting to hear your thoughts on the next steps of this rack, and on the bigger case. I wish I could find the Intellijel 7u for sales somewhere!

I'm kind of on the fence about getting a 208hp case vs the 168hp.. Since this is just the beginning, there's definitely a lot of room for things. I actually also, once this 2 voice system is complete, I'd want to make a rack for percussion/drums, so starting with this 168hp case might work down the road and just swap it for my percussion case at some point... haven't decided yet.

What I am most confused about though, is how you see the evolution of this system as a proper 2 paraphonic voice system... I can't decide if I'm just lusting for cool oscillators because they're fun, or if I really need 4 oscillators in this system. I'm confused on how you would suggest going about this, especially with the Plaits and the BIA in the case, I feel like those are 2 sound sources that might be hard to complement... of course I could be wrong.... do you see it as simply playing the Plaits and an analog osc with the same sequence, going to the same filter and becoming 1 sound? (a simplification)

I kind of like the idea of just 2 voices and then processing and making them powerful (phat) and interesting on their own... and then I just feel lame because they are 2 of the most common digital oscillators, which hurts my analog lust, but these 2 might be totally the best bang for my buck.

So as far as the case now, with Lugia's great comments, I am not a couple of steps back, which is no problem at all! I am curious how to combine another oscillator with the Plaits and BIA in a system like this.

Thanks a lot for your comments! I will be thinking/working on this and hopefully come back here for some more comment.

@Kel_
Thanks for your feedback!
My plan is in line with what you said, sorry if it's not clear!! I would eventually get to the case pictured, not in one go!! HeHe!! :)
Step 1 is, therefore, to get the Cs-L going with Maths, Wogglebug, and the 1U Interfaces Pedal I/O, the I/O in and headphones and Quadratt for extra mix+ attenuverter duties.
The 4ms Mixer+Output should come along also, cause... yeah, output and mixer! Or do you mean another kind of mixer?!

The Arbhar would be there precisely to get some ambient sound mangling, noise, different drone notes, percussion sounds, etc.. So I could create different tapestries above or under which the Cs-L can develop, change and do its magic. Does that make sense?

I'm glad I found a direction, and I'm also glad I asked you guys!! Going slowly and getting to know a couple of modules, before diving right in and be overwhelmed! Difficult, but I'm getting stronger! ;)

I agree generally with the sentiments expressed here!!

Slightly off topic, but did someone mention MPE?

I have an ASM HydraSynth... if you haven't already, check it out. Past the rather too modest presentation is one of the finest synthesisers ever made... imho! not least because it takes all the classic stuff we think we know and puts a new and musically relevant and interesting spin on it all, dismissing it as 'yet another whatever' is a huge mistake.

Oh yeah... the MPE capabilities are crazy, I would be very interested to hear how these compare with the Prophecy as I have to admit the MPE stuff there passed me by completely (not that I was ever lucky enough to own one, but you know).

Wow... that quantiser looks great!! Nice find, never heard of Kasutronics - thank you again :D

All good!!

My initial reaction that it is still too much to get in one go... I consider myself a very fast learner and have 30+ years experience of messing around with synths in one for or another and it would still take me a few weeks to get the basics on that lot!

Other folk will disagree I am sure, but I find Granular on a synth voice to be one of the most boring things ever, I much prefer a radio signal, a voice sample, a short clip from a band playing live, found sound, nature recordings, city soundscapes, industrial noise to be far more interesting.

I am not saying don't get all these things eventually, just that it would be much more prudent and would serve you much better to get one voice, sure go for the CsL (YEARS of exploration in that alone), and think right, what do I actually need to get this doing something:

Maths - always a good choice!!

Okay, maybe a mixer too!

The Pedal IO - great if you have loads of pedals and holy moly, if you have ZOIA then well... that along with those 3 or 4 modules will keep you busy for ever!!

Don't just take my word for it, will it really matter if you just get those and see what you can do for a week or two?

Check out the Maths supplementary manual to et some idea of the power you have in just the one module alone:

PDF Download of Maths Supplementary Manual

I can pretty much guarantee your perspective will change once you get hands on!

EDITED Nov 23rd 2020, 13:40

Wow !
Thank you so much for taking on your time to work on my rack. I really appreciate.
Considering your very usefull recommandations, it may be an alternative version of my terminal 3U rack, waiting for a second row :)

I replaced BIA by Loquelic, which is a more complex oscillator but can do percs too.
I consider my Pro-1 like a "normal" vco and it's semi-modular, so I can patch his vco ;)
I absolutely wanted a filter too. Hesitating between different models, I've chosen the Ripples for the moment.
Fx have been ditched. I can route the stereo out of the rack towards a Zoom ms70cdr I own (or buy later another used), which is a very versatile and good sounding pedal.
The outputs of the pedal are routed in an analog audio / usb mixer (soundcraft signature MTK)
I also ditched tiptop sampler. As I plan to get an octatrack for performing and manage samples, it will be my unique source. And disting is still there.
I hope Soleo Vero from noise engineering is OK for keeping everything in tune.

Very nice, I will definitely put that on the list of things to check out when things return to normal! Sounds fun - I can't think of anything that does this, at leas nothing I have around anyway, the closest I can think is the freeze option on the reverb on MI Elements!

I keep meaning to get into DIY for stomp boxes, there's an awful lot of these things around and a lot of them are quite simple circuits, which in turn means the are probably nice things to experiment with.

Thinking about the exact same thing. Both features would be absolutely great.

The first part should be fairly easy. Just having an additional field or table that maintain the module versions per user per rack.

The last bit, getting the new fw versions automatically available in modulargrid, will be quite challenging. depending on how willing any manufacturer wishes to cooperate. If modulargrid provides an api provides a simple api a manufacturer can itself choose to use it and publish the version.

I've no idea whether there is any development going on at all.

@Kel_
@t0b1

Thank you again for your help and sorry it took me a while to get back in here! I've been researching a lot the last couple of weeks, trying to take up as much information as I can and make sense of all the great advice I got from you guys. I also wrote Jason and got around the tutorials for lots of modules that I was (and am) eyeing! :D

With that in mind, I have now what I think will be the beginning of an auspicious project.
I'd start with a couple of elements, namely the main voice. I think the Arbhar would have to be there also, though, it's so deep..!!!
What do you guys think of this version?
Anything that pops out as a major deficit/problem?? Or suggestions that would make more sense??

I've been very often quite lost in the most basic of things, like I/O, Mixing, stereo elements!! The options are immense and so different.
One addition is the Pedal Interface, which I think will be rad since I got some very nice pedals that I use with my e-bass (including an MF 101, Meris Ottobit, and the Swiss army knife of pedals, the ZOIA!)) :)

This looks like I would have a lot of fun with that rig. One thing I see missing is a row or three of buffered mults. Or a patchbay, like you can find on the the Make Noise shared systems? https://www.makenoisemusic.com/synthesizers/black-and-gold-shared-system-plus
I have no experience with bigger Racks yet, but feel like I would get great use of routing things through a bay from point A to B sometimes.

I usually go to bed thinking about patching ideas and try them out the next day.
"Why couldn't I get that vibrato to work right?" "How could I use a switch to add interest to that patch?" etc.
I'm a big fan of Eno's "Oblique Strategies" too. If you aren't familiar, back in the 70s Brian Eno created a deck of cards with short phrases and single words that are meant to redirect artists out of their comfort zones. When you get stuck, pull a card and contemplate the phrase for a minute or two, then incorporate the idea into your music. It doesn't always lead to something cool, but it keeps you on your toes and shakes up your routine workflow. I believe he has used Oblique Strategies on many (most?) of his great productions including Bowie's "Low" and Talking Heads' "Remain in Light."
Here's a free website with random cards that you can click through:
https://www.joshharrison.net/oblique-strategies/

Here's an attempt.

The left side is your sequencing and modulation section. The combination of Pam's, Kinks, and Short Bus gives you a wealth of gate, trigger, and clocked modulation options to drive your modulation hungry voices. Stages is huge for such a small box but it does two crucial things: envelopes and sequences. I'm currently obsessed with it, so it's in the box. O/A/x2 will give some hands on control over all that modulation; some of BIA parameters are very sensitive and trying to get them right directly on Pam is a pain.

The noise out of Kinks will go to one of the Optomix channels to be percussion.

SY0.5 and BIA are your main percussive voices. Tiptop One does whatever they can't : chords, pads, ambience. And probably hihats :-/ Disting can do whatever is missing elsewhere.

The Doepfer dual VCA gives you the choice of linear and exponential response; maybe not actually needed because both Pam and Stages give you control over shape, but still handy I think. The knobs are not too tiny. With your choice of voices and the Optomix there you are more likely to use this for CV than audio.

The ergonomic disaster now begins. The idea is to use stack cables to bus the inputs of the two 2hp Mixers together. One is then your main mix and the other is your FX send to the Pico DSP. Hopefully you are not going to be tweaking too much, unless you have very small fingers! My preference would be to ditch this section entirely, mix on a real mixer and use outboard for effects. You will obviously need an external mixer for you other gear anyway.

I kept all the things you already had, but given a free choice I would have ditched the Optomix and the Tiptop One.
* Tiptop One can be replaced by Disting which is a perfectly good sample player, with lots of modes.
* Optomix is very big for what it is, and since your voices all have their own envelopes the need for an LPG is less.
With the 12 hp saved you might get :
* a FILTER. Lots of good options for 8hp or less, pick one to your taste.
* a "normal" VCO : Doepfer A-111-3 or 2hp VCO are flexible compact options, but there are plenty more.
* more utilities.
I might go for : 2hp VCO, 2hp Tune (to help Stages be melodic), Make Noise LxD, Doepfer A-121-3 Mulitmode filter.

I'm sure there is a lot of room for improvement but I think this has the potential to make a lot of fun (if minimalistic) techno, even without any other instruments.

If it's not an aimless jam -- and often it is an aimless jam -- I usually start from just one module or musical element. I often try to get a module to do something new. [...] Once I'm happy with my "experiment" I usually bring in other elements to build a piece of music around that.
-- the-erc

That's basically the same I do, I find I learn a lot more if I try to have my patch grow into something more similar to an actual track than leaving it as it is.

So far I've been practicing by forcing myself to produce full tracks from start to finish, in the last twelve months I've uploaded more than 30 'tracks' to my Soundcloud account. I wouldn't call them 'tracks' really, as they're more like practices or experiments, nothing I would publish on Bandcap or feel proud about. But hey, I'ts been tons of fun so far and I've been learning a lot.
-- Exposure

I'm debating wether to upload the results of my patching as I'm not sure it could interest anybody. I don't feel I'm producing anything valuable yet, if not for my own personal learning.

Plus, not recording things can also be a mistake, even if it's obvious that the "screwing around" in those cases is just that. But at the same time, if you have the take in your DAW...well, hell, ANYTHING'S fair game once it's on the hard drive. So it doesn't work in of itself...but what if you dubbed a few more things onto it? Or what if you used it as a layer in some other work? Or chopped it into loops?
-- Lugia

I agree, and maybe a downside of this approach of trying to make anything into a "track" is that many of the sounds I get from patching around could be useful in the future if recorded by themselves.

Just a random patch and jam. Hope you enjoy it.

Thanks Lugia, I missunderstood.
I have a couple of tiptop stackables and those splitters are perfect.

You are correct, Lugia. If a synth companies releases a good product, folks pay attention and buy it. Moog makes good stuff and they sell a lot of things. I still have and love my Moog Sub 37 that was my first hardware synth.

We'll see, I suppose. Honestly, if they were to reissue something of theirs from the past, I would hope it would be the Prophecy. No one really "got" this synth when it came out in the mid-1990s except for just a few people. One that I know of found that it was nearly perfect as a controller for their Oberheim Xpander...and given the complexity of the Xpander, that's sayin' something! Its MPE capabilities are off the chain, even for TODAY! But Korg felt it was something of a cross between an experiment and a failure (it was supposed to be a monophonic OASYS, actually...even used the MOSS synthesis implementation), so they retreated to "safe" things after that for a while. The Japanese synth companies are funny like that...when they come out with something that really needs exploration beyond what the company thought it was, they tend to think that these products "failed". The most egregious case of this was Roland's TB-303...failed mainly because Roland kept insisting that it was ONLY a bass synth, and people didn't get what it could REALLY do until 1987 and the release of Mr. Fingers' "Washing Machine". Then, even as the prices of the 303 continued on up toward the ionosphere, they kept proclaiming that "We'll NEVER reissue the TB-303"...

...until they did, in several clunky forms that weren't what people really wanted. And I'm NOT counting the MC-303 here; that device is an abortion of its OWN hideous sort! I don't think it's an issue of just "synth nerds", either; if that were the case, we wouldn't see all those people drooling over the Prophet-5/10 reissues. Players want and need things that work, that make sense, and that have loads of possibilities that require exploration, even 40 years on.

Hopefully Korg can get their act together and quit releasing hot garbage. At least with modular, the companies are smaller scale and cater more toward hardcore synth nerds and enthusiasts.

Agree that recording is worthwhile and one reason for my YT channel even if my music is not everyone cup of tea. I learn from it.

Uh oh... Lugia’s givin’ us a’scoldin’. Hahaha
I saw Maths and Samara so I didn’t think much about dedicated attenuverters. Agree with everything else. Someone should really hand out a Mantis with every first rack post.

Quantizer sounds like a doable thing, yep...and if this is DIY, check this one out: https://www.modulargrid.net/e/kassutronics-quantizer Looks like trouble...12 user-definable scales, methods for shifting scales as part of a patch, etc.

So...how would you send an inverted envelope to your Sisters VCF?

Oh, snap! No attenuverters! C'mon guys...also, I would suggest some more VCAs be added, since this thing's got ample modulation sources but there's only four VCAs in evidence that can be used for either the audio OR the modulation/CV level control.

Now, while it might be possible to take this to a two-voice paraphonic system in a space of 2 x 84, this would work loads better in a 2 x 104. Something like a Mantis might be a better pick here. With the extra space, also, you can easily add some attenuverters, a bit of logic to screw with your timing, and make two PROPER voices with two VCOs each, their own VCFs and VCAs, summing down to a proper stereo mixer. And if you were to go with an Intellijel 7U x 104, you'd then have the tile row for some of your basic functions, such as audio I/O, MIDI interfacing, etc. That's what I would recommend, tbh.

Hey, no prob...info unshared is useless to everyone! BTW, another really odd Chinese pedal that the synth crowd might like is the Aural Dream Breath Delay. This simply looks like a basic ol' analog delay...but then, there's that "NO - GH" toggle switch and what IT does. And what that is is that it puts a sustain on the feedback path of sorts, and the result is that the delay tails stay at an even level and DON'T decay. Used properly (like, with a sequencer-driven line), the effect is just stunning! It's sort of like a Palmer Timepressor, but in the Breath Delay's case the tail compression is fixed. And it's loads cheaper than the Palmer! Aural Dream has a number of very odd stompboxes like that...I also have their Super Ring, sort of a tremolo...until you crank the oscillator in it into audio range and yeeeeeeeOW!

Actually, sacguy was talking about inline mults, not ones in the cab. In a small build like this, you have to optimize your space for maximum functionality (one of the huge reasons why small builds are VERY difficult to get right), and leaving the multiples OUT is one way to recover space. Instead of those, get some of the passive, inline type, such as what you see here: https://www.perfectcircuit.com/eurorack-modular-synths/splitters-hubs.html or some stackcables.

There's only a few reasons to have mult modules: having enough destinations for your pitch CV that you see "voltage sag" that affects tuning and/or scaling (and here, you'd need a BUFFERED mult, not a passive) is one. Another is because the build is large enough to have them without robbing space from functional modules. But beyond those, there's not a lot of solid arguments for them if you simply have a few of the inline ones on hand.

EDITED Nov 23rd 2020, 03:07