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Alright, here's my take. I left your modulation sources alone for the most part and concentrated on voices and mixing. I've been researching similar rack ideas and noise sources myself.
I replaced Manis with BIA. BIA is so powerful and Manis ultimately seems a little limited and same-y to me. It's just not quite as versatile to me.
The MCO seems like a completely overlooked oscillator. It's got PWM, digital noise, and a sub-octave out in 6hp and under $200. I would use this and the Patching Panda Shuby linear feedback shift register to create your own percussion with the Patching Panda Punch v3. That could negate the need for the Crater.
You already have a PLL with the Interstellar Radio (the only module I regret selling), so the Doepfer PLL might be a bit redundant. I added the 100 Grit filter and Dark Matter feedback mixer just because they are so gnarly. You could probably eliminate the 100 Grit if you want to just use the Serge for filtering. You could probably also eliminate the 3xVCA and add a Bastl Waver for gnarly wavefolding since you have the VCAs in the Patching Panda, Befaco, and Dark Matter. Always a consideration with noise racks should be the X1L3 modules (Shard, Underwurlde, Wreckage). I've got the Shard and it's impossible to tame.
I would have a lot of fun with this rack. Let me know what you think.
Thank You Jim for your time. I will take your suggestions into consideration. Especially the Tesseract combination looks very interesting. Yes, the choice of voices is quite custom – but hey it is modular so I can change them any time ;)
I started tracking my use of knobs on each module during a performance. I want to get a better feel for balance of ergonomics versus flexibility that is really needed. Do I really need to (de)tune my drums all the time or is it just about fiddling on the decays? And can this be done via a single CV controller? I will split / ditch the sequencing probably into smaller parts or use external devices for that. That also means I will miss using accents on the Ericas. Maybe someone has experienced the same challenges? What is your take on using a B.Percall and utilities instead?
What is your opinion about great modulation sources? Is it better to have many sources or many combined? Should I focus on the Ericas modulator with great ergonomics but only two sources? What about Stages Mutable instruments or Intellijel Quadrax with more value for each hp. Or just go super small with a lot of Pico EG from Erica Synths or Doepfers? I love the richness and flexibility of PAM but in my experience this module requires a bit of menu diving and I am mostly using it for keeping the rack in sync. Speaking about utilities what is the ratio for each modulation source? Or how many LINKs and KINGs?
I shared this the other day, but was having enough fun making noise (https://stevehand.bandcamp.com/album/l-i-t) I've started thinking about a dedicated 208 rack for it, put this together, and thought I'd ask the forum what people think, what am I missing, where you'd take it.
Some quick notes on composition:
1) PNW for all sequencing, I don't especially want 1 V/Oct sequencing in a rack like this so a pitch sequencer isn't needed, but I still want to be able to create drum lines.
2) Maths + SSG for pitch and dynamics control, lots of fun possibilities there, A * B + C to expand that even further.
3) Crater seems awesome and a powerful kick is critical for this stuff.
4) Serge ResEQ for feedback patching, WMD SCLPL for end of chain EQ'ing.
5) Terci Ruina, DTM, + Let's Splosh for distortion (both audio and CV)
6) Warps for various effects, including wavefolding, which is a bit of an open question: is its wavefolder good enough?
7) Bad Idea #9 is playing the snare role.
8) Pressure Points plus Ears for a more performative touch (and for the ability to create distinct structural moments that PP provides).
Anyway, curious what people think and how they'd tackle this.
Hi @nickgreenberg. Thanks for your thoughts here. Some great things to consider.
As far as the Spotify thing, BT's thoughts and experience with AI are presented in about the last 15 minutes of that podcast. I've read through a few things about Spotify's "Creator Technology Research Lab" but there isn't a whole to of good info on what exactly their goals are with generative music. I'm not sure if there are any academic papers on the topic and with Spotify being a private company, I'm sure they are keeping data, algorithms, and strategy pretty close to the vest. In general though, it seems like Spotify is a data company masquerading as a jukebox... and they get to keep the money. I can't say that I am a big fan of BT's music, but he definitely knows what he is talking about in regards to music technology and the future.
Regarding drum modules, I have a small subsection at the bottom left dedicated to drums and drum sequencing. I also incorporate an external drum machine here. I've been working more towards synthesizing my own percussion tones with the Patching Panda Punch v3 and low pass gates, and so it makes sense for my workflow to have a drum section integrated within the larger rack. Your recommendation of waveshapers/wavefolders will come in handy here. In fact, I have switched out a few modules since I initially posted the rack image above so I can include a wavfeolder. I haven't decide if I want an Intellijel or Instruo yet. I will definitely try the audio rate switching with the Switchblade. I still have some time to tweak my remaining 104hp before I commit to anything.
And finally, your recommendation for submixers is one that is essential for everyone (and especially noobs) to consider. I have pondered that exact question quite a bit and have ultimately decided to adhere to Jim's insistence over multiple threads that I add a larger matrix mixer (as opposed to smaller submixers). I reasoned that each level of submixing that I incorporate limits the amount of control I have over single sounds at the end of the signal path. If I submix drums, what happens if I decide I want to add reverb to a single snare hit or send just hi-hats to a delay? I could probably use a few more buffered mults, but I have a considerable amount of external passive mults, so signal splitting isn't much of a problem. From a performance perspective I reasoned that a dedicated mixing section worked for me. With the Toppobrillo, Erica Fusion and Drum Mixers, and the Doepfer matrix all in one area of the rack, I can perform with a dub approach that makes sense to me. I can also use the matrix mixer along with the 3xMIA to mix CV in interesting ways, so it seems like a winner. As much as I love the WMD Performance Mixer, I had not initially planned to go this big with the rack, and so I ended up with multiple mixers. I'm actually pretty happy with the feature set and sound quality of the mixing section I've cobbled together. I do have the Moffenzeef Moffenmix (not pictured here) that I can always add back in if I find a need for more mixers.
Thanks again for your thoughts. These are all very useful ideas to ponder.
Take care and enjoy your weekend.
Thanks, that looks like a good option that would save me €€€, as an alternative to the all-Eurorack method. Although I've been eyeing some Tiptop modules that seem reasonably priced too. Still, I have no idea how they perform. I'll look into it.
And this shows you should never sell stuff, and instead put it away for future use. I had four Quadraverbs in the 90's that would come in super-handy now.
question: you said "With Spotify and other data-collection companies actively stealing (or paying fractions of pennies for) the work and ideas of artists in order to create artificially intelligent generative music that sounds like those artists..." are there a couple key articles / videos you could point me to on this topic? The Mylarmelodies vid you mentioned is ~80 minutes long. Thought I'd just ask you where the good bits of info you've seen on this topic are
reactions to your rack:
-- looks awesome! It contains a lot of my "top pick" modules I consider most interesting. Having instruments that I find exciting, inspiring, that I want to come back to over and over -- that's a big deal. A mixture of sonic appeal and depth, physical beauty, kinesthetics, ease & fun of use but also challenge and depth, to me that makes a great instrument. Your rig has a lot of that vibe to me
-- I'm also new to modular but experienced in music and synthesis. I had asked some recent questions to the forum. JimH and Lugia got back to me with loads of useful recommendations. One Jim said that sticks out to me in this instance is basically "consider separating your drum modules from others." To me that seems helpful and I thought I'd pass it along. So maybe as you evolve your rack(s) you split rhythm from other?
-- what else might be useful in your evolving rack? I haven't scrubbed your rig design module by module, but at a glance, I might suggest:
** It's a big rack, so maybe sprinkling some more "utility / submix pods" in 2-3 spots around the rig could help. This could mean mults and low-HP mono and stereo mixers. While it doesn't sound sexy on the face of it, in effect it should allow for a huge range of parallel signal paths. I know you've already got some utilities sprinkled around; IMO a few additional submix pods could be interesting.
** More waveshapers!? To me those are a very exciting part of modular, esp when driven with deep modulation and/or audio rate. Also very neat is Instruo Tain, a switching utility that can be driven at audio rate. So like the OS2 scissor you have, but able to intake anything. My jaw dropped the first time I got that working. I'm not sure if Switchblade will work at audio rate, but I know Tain will. And today I spent some good time with Rossum Linneaus; it really changes my ideas of what a filter can be. Yes it can do the normal "removes spectral content" aspect of filtering, but it can also add a lot of content in interesting ways. To me Linneaus is a really interesting waveshaper. All these modules I'm mentioning essentially fit the category "what could come after an OSC but before final FX?" that would add interesting depth and flexibility to your already formidable rig.
** syncing audio rate modulators: I just learned about this recently, when reading the manual on Rossum Trident, and I'm SOO excited about the technique. Basically, if doing audio rate modulation, syncing the modulator to the carrier gives rock-solid pitch tracking (due to the sync) while you can get a huge range of timbral variety from the audio rate modulation, and even change the modulation depth without losing pitch tracking. If you haven't already spent time with this technique, I would recommend it, as it opens up a vast added dimension of timbral variety. It's the bees knees! The Trident literature explains this technique pretty fully, and I've verified the technique works in broader usage.
I hope at least some of these ideas above are interesting / helpful / fun.
my 2 ordered LPGs ver 2 have now been underways 10 days
-- Broken-Form
They ship from Bangkok, if I remember correctly. Given the Covid situation, I'd suggest patience; while I've had a couple of things from that side of the globe get here pretty quickly, much of the things I've ordered out of China (same general shipping situation) seem to take 2-4 weeks-ish via surface shipping.
Echoing what Lugia and others are saying, why use a Eurorack rig for live hiphop instead of one of the "grooveboxes" like Tempest, Elektron Rytm, Maschine, or one of the MPC line?
A few questions I'd recommend considering (if you haven't already):
-- what's your preferred workflow for playing / programming beats? (e.g. rack sequencer, outboard sequencer, finger-drumming, etc.)? There's really a huge difference in workflow for different setups; I find some of the sonically appealing rhythm rigs have a painful (to me) workflow.
-- what are the desired core sounds? What platforms help you get those efficiently?
-- what sound polishing / fx / mixing are needed to get the final audio? Things like MPCs and Maschine are built to get you performance-ready sounds, volume leveling, bus compression etc. Other rigs, it may take more thought / work / additional modules to get the same "performance ready" sound.
IMO, MPCs are great rigs for hiphop: they're proven over decades of use, and they've really refined the platform specifically for hiphop. Maschine is also strong for that genre.
IF you're really committed to doing hiphop with Eurorack THEN I suggest really zeroing in on a sequencer you're going to love to work with. If you'll be happy working with the combo of Hermod Sampler and OP-1 (which you mentioned above) then that's cool, I just want to emphasize that the sequencer / interface will be key to having fun and getting good results. If I was building a Eurorack rig for rhythm, I would use Erica Synths Drum Sequencer, which is the best small format sequencer I've ever spent time with, OR a stand-alone sequencers to send MIDI in such as Polyend Seq 8 or Linnstrument. The standalone sequencer would give more room to work on a sequence grid AND free up HP from your rig. As far as reference Eurorack rhythm systems go, IMO Erica Synths Techno system is a very good implementation of the "groovebox" concept, BUT it retails near $5k and it voiced more towards Techno vs hiphop.
All considered, I'd urge you to see if a MPC will work for you, and if you really want to do Eurorack, focus on making sure you have a sequencer setup you'll love to work with.
@JimHowell1970
"the psu looks to be a standard meanwell power supply - great if you are only using low powered modules - but not so good if you want to use something high powered - the fact that the builder states the number of power headers, but no the available power may or may not be a cause for concern - I would at least ask before buying"
I admit this is where my lack of knowledge comes into play. I had no idea this was something to keep an eye out for - I just assumed "powered case" would be enough to power any combination of modules that fit into the case. Thank you for the advice.
that's why most cases and power supplies state their available power on each of 3 rails +/-12v and +5v and why at the bottom of your rack on modulargrid there is a sum of the power draw for each of these in the rack and a warning if there are modules that don't have power draw listed (I always allow 10mA/hp on both the +ve and -ve 12v rails for these)
make sure that the power draw of your modules is significantly less than that available from your power supply - allow at least 20-30% to allow for inrush and inaccurate power listings
"personally I prefer the mantis over either of these cases - but that may just be me, partly because the mantis power supply is clean enough for video (less ripple up to much higher frequencies) whereas by all reports the intellijel supplies are not so quiet"
I would probably already own a Mantis case if I wasn't also so picky about aesthetics (even though it's a little bit larger than I'd like)! I like making videos with my synth gear and having a good looking case that appeals to me is part of the whole package. You mention the possibility of video "noise" and some power supplies not being clean enough. Is there a proximity effect to this? i.e. Would I need to be careful about how close my camera gets to my gear if my case happens to have an "unclean" power supply?
I barely notice my cases when they are full and patched and I quite like the mantis aesthetics anyway - but I understand aversion to aesthetics - I really dislike the rackbrutes for the same reason (and the rack wart)
by I can see video noise I mean from a modular video synthesizer - my modular is both audio and video - not proximity effect from rf interference or whatever on a camera that is close to the modular - analog video is at a much higher frequency than audio and I can see artifacts on the screen when I use my frequency central power supplies to power modules that are in the actual video path (as opposed to modulation sources) but there is no noise at audio frequencies - my befaco and tiptop power supplies are great for both audio and video though
Can you speak to the power supply used in this build? The size is exactly what I'm looking for (I have decided on 6U, 84-88 hp would be more than enough for a long term build) and I really like the aesthetics of it.
looks ok - power looks ok - but I have no experience of the manufacturer and they don't advertise the manufacturer of the power supply
funnily when I clicked on your link CaseFromLake (as linked by Lugia) were in the banner ads
"not many people can afford to go out and fill a case with modules on day 1 - and it's not often recommended either - whilst most modules are relatively simple to understand, lots of them all at once is not - and those that do need a bit more time generally fail to get it when purchased in huge batches - so starting with a few modules and learning them in depth before expanding is a great idea"
Again, another great point made and something I instinctively abide by. I've been working with two Moog semi-modulars for just over a year now and still have more to explore with them. Although it's time to augment that setup with this new modular journey :)
Thank you for all of your recommendations around how to output, modulation, attenuation, etc. Definitely gives me a solid starting point and feeling a little more comfortable with my starting module choices and some ideas on how to support them with more utility.
glad to hear it!
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
That's a great composition! Adding the keyboard "touch" to it, is a nice element in this music. I feel that the keyboard could sound a bit louder though, it's a bit underwhelmed compared to all the other sounds, other than that, it's great! :-)
Thank you very much for sharing this and kind regards, Garfield.
For review reports of Eurorack modules, please refer to https://garfieldmodular.net/ for PDF formatted downloads
Yeah, that would work well...fact is, the Ranes I use here are sort of matrix-ish, as they can simultaneously split a stereo signal to several outs AND offer return channels that sum down to a stereo out. If you added a distro amp, then you could derive multiple buffered sends and fire them off to a bunch of rack devices, then sum all that back down with a Rane SM 26B, with all of that only using a stereo pair on your converter for send and another for return. The only caveat I'd make here would be to get a distro that's ONLY for stereo audio...there's quite a few on the usual used gear sites that also have video in various formats, but those aren't what you'd be looking for.
Oh when around 1:00+ those strings or drone kicks in, that sounds great and exciting! :-) Oh and then again that heavy sound around 03:00+, wow! Fantastic music for a serious good film :-)
Nice drone jam, thank you very much for sharing this and kind regards, Garfield.
For review reports of Eurorack modules, please refer to https://garfieldmodular.net/ for PDF formatted downloads
Cool...in fact, have a look here: https://www.facebook.com/casefromlake This maker turned up on here a month-ish ago, and what I see from them is impressive: built-in IEC AC outlets, great and PORTABLE designs, solid builds. That 3 x 104 case for EUR 455 (with power, busboards, all that fun stuff) is a KILLER deal, and offers tons of room for future expansion at a price that kicks the crap out of most other case makers. Check 'em out!
Looks solid to me...about the only changes I'd make at this point would be to suggest using something a tad more complex than the Erica CV processor. Frap's 321 fits the space, and offers CV/mod scrambling that's on par with the Tiptop MISO along with the functions that the Erica module has. And also, going with a Happy Nerding OUT instead of the 4ms Listen I/O would allow you to fly in another stereo pair over the top of the rest of the mix...very useful for an extra FX return for something global, like reverb.
Other than that, though...yeah, build it. It's ready.
There's goes my stimmy check! lol
-- isolatediguana
Money is transitory, but good musical instruments are forever. Even if they croak, you'll still have the work you created with 'em.
Second cab makes perfect sense, btw...you were gonna get one anyway (just like EVERYONE eventually does...there ARE reasons we call this "Eurocrack", after all), so go ahead and take the plunge. Just make sure this time out to put plenty of the "boring" stuff in there to make the "sexy" modules do everything they're capable of.
"don't skimp on case or power, especially if you find modules to be expensive - the case protects them and the power gives them life!"
This makes a lot of sense, especially when full cases can exceed several thousands of dollars. Thank you for your input.
"the psu looks to be a standard meanwell power supply - great if you are only using low powered modules - but not so good if you want to use something high powered - the fact that the builder states the number of power headers, but no the available power may or may not be a cause for concern - I would at least ask before buying"
I admit this is where my lack of knowledge comes into play. I had no idea this was something to keep an eye out for - I just assumed "powered case" would be enough to power any combination of modules that fit into the case. Thank you for the advice.
"personally I prefer the mantis over either of these cases - but that may just be me, partly because the mantis power supply is clean enough for video (less ripple up to much higher frequencies) whereas by all reports the intellijel supplies are not so quiet"
I would probably already own a Mantis case if I wasn't also so picky about aesthetics (even though it's a little bit larger than I'd like)! I like making videos with my synth gear and having a good looking case that appeals to me is part of the whole package. You mention the possibility of video "noise" and some power supplies not being clean enough. Is there a proximity effect to this? i.e. Would I need to be careful about how close my camera gets to my gear if my case happens to have an "unclean" power supply?
Can you speak to the power supply used in this build? The size is exactly what I'm looking for (I have decided on 6U, 84-88 hp would be more than enough for a long term build) and I really like the aesthetics of it.
"not many people can afford to go out and fill a case with modules on day 1 - and it's not often recommended either - whilst most modules are relatively simple to understand, lots of them all at once is not - and those that do need a bit more time generally fail to get it when purchased in huge batches - so starting with a few modules and learning them in depth before expanding is a great idea"
Again, another great point made and something I instinctively abide by. I've been working with two Moog semi-modulars for just over a year now and still have more to explore with them. Although it's time to augment that setup with this new modular journey :)
Thank you for all of your recommendations around how to output, modulation, attenuation, etc. Definitely gives me a solid starting point and feeling a little more comfortable with my starting module choices and some ideas on how to support them with more utility.
@defragmenteur
Thank you for the info about the MIDI modules.
@Lugia
Thanks, I appreciate the advice. I've decided to go with a larger case (6U, and 84-88hp) as it will allow more room for expansion and won't be too overwhelming in my studio.
looks ok - I suspect it will change as you start buying modules anyway - buy what you are missing when you are patching - keep a copy of this to compare with the actual filled rack when you get there
no personal experience with the droid - I do know there is a long thread on muffs that Mathias (der man mit der maschine) posts in - support seems good
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
@Lugia@JimHowell1970 Thanks for all the opinions/input. This is where I am today with it. (Preview is inaccurate)
Still around 2/3rds of the +12v, shaved a few off the -12v rail. Depth is doable, 2 free power connectors on the board, and some inclusions/alternatives to your suggestions that I thought most prudent.
Thoughts? Either of you have any experience with the Droid module?
THANKS JimHowell1970 and Lugia for taking the time to give me this feedback! I lurk quite a bit here and it always surprises me how generous people are with their info and expertise. I think I'm going to follow Jim's suggestion by getting another case and then start filling it with some of the modules that Lugia suggested. There's goes my stimmy check! lol
Wow thanks for the extensive and interesting info.
As you say, I was thinking about the usual reverbs and delays, but in Eurorack module format. I have a few stomp boxes for the guitars but I wasn't thinking of using those.
The setup I have in mind when I mention FX is really a simple one. My audio interface has 8 inputs, all of them with pad switches, and for now I have no problem sending audio signals directly from the Eurorack modules into it. It peaks in the region between -18 and -12 dB at unity. So what I was thinking really was just to send mult'ed copies of my audio outputs into a matrix mixer, then from the mixer outputs into the FX modules, and from them either back to a simple (sub)mixer or directly to the audio interface.
That's where I have the Doepfer matrix mixer in mind, but I wasn't sure if I would be doing/buying something unnecessary, or if instead I'm being too traditional and there are better more modern methods.
In any case, I hope this is of interest to the OP too. I'm not trying to hijack anyone's thread...
Oh, no doubt...but the key is to get a sequencer that properly emulates the TB-303's behavior, something like a Stepper Acid or similar. Beyond that, the sky's the limit as far as sound generation...and that factor is the big thing here. You can still have 303 patterns, but that 303 sequencer getting harnessed to some raw sonic power...THAT'S the point. Even if you do this in a DAW, it's still the "right thing to do" to use a 303-style sequencer to drive a very complex VSTi synth these days.
Ahhh, if only Aphex hadn't released the Most Expensive Acid Track Ever ("180db" on "Syro", which uses not one, not TWO, but THREE Korg PS3300s controlled by a 303), this would be SO much simpler...
the obvious thing especially after what you have said in your last post is a lack of modulation and utility modules
I don't think you're going to achieve your goals in 10hp though and loosing batumi seems counter productive to me
my recommendation would be to put whatever you were going to spend on that 10hp module towards a new case the same size as this one
and then fill it with some modulation and utility modules that support them well matrix mixer, mults, logic, sequential switches, waveshapers, random and one or more modules that can work like meta-controllers - ADDAC VC Transitions and the like!
Doepfer are fantastic for utilities - inexpensive and do what they say they do
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
It's not just you...you're missing some utilities.
I had a go at the build, eliminating some modules in the process. I didn't see the point of having huge distortion and stereo delay modules taking up space, so I chucked those and went with a different FX setup. I also got rid of the sequential switch (no sequencer, so...) and modified a few things, and this is what resulted:
I took a BIG cue from your frustration with the current state of capability, and tinkered with this so that it's capable of more elaborate modulation, plus I added a beefier (Pachinko...Marbles clone) random signal module to kick that up considerably.
Top row: This is ALL audio now. "Voice 1" is the Dixie2+/Red Dragon/Javelin set. Then "voice 2" has the stereo oscillators feeding the Squawk Dirty via a Happy Nerding 2x SAM, which provides two stereo inputs to one stereo out, letting you submix the stereo oscillators. Morphagene follows, then I changed the VCAs to a Veils clone (getting back 2 hp for the 2x SAM) and placed that so the VCAs can function as level controls for your mixer strips.
Bottom row: PWRchekr, then a Yarns clone (much more capable than the previous MIDI interface). Pam's is after this, then the Kinks, but after that I added a CVable Logic module, which will allow you to play a couple of timing channels from the Pam's off of each other to create some more complex clocking behavior. Marbles clone is after this, then the Batumi with the Poti expander. And keeping with that, I added a Zadar and its expander; the build now has five EGs, including the one in the Javelin. A Frap 321 provides various CV/mod alteration functions, and I added three more VCAs after that...which will allow your modulation signals some improved capability by adding CV control over modulation amplitudes. Then Maths...and the FX section is now a Happy Nerding FX Aid and a knob.farm Ferry allows two channels of FX send/return for an external FX processor (or two) which can be a much more complex rack device (and those are pretty cheap right now, thanks to VSTs). Lastly, the Befaco output module.
Again, this was done with the "self-modulation" shortcomings in mind; this build now has that dealt with, and the modulation palette is MUCH more complex with the addition of the various bottom row modules and the deletion of the 32 hp's worth of FX modules. That part was a great example of "sexy modules" gone bad, as those took up the space you really needed as modulation modules. Your voices are also now laid out more sensibly, with all audio modules except the FX and output on the top. And yes, there were deletions as I've noted...but this is definitely much more focused on creating complex sounds with considerable internal change, as you'd wanted.
I hear all that @Lugia, but as an acid fanatic I'll chime in to say that modular does open up some really interesting room to explore the acid sound, and folks are looking at the challenge you've raised re: the sequencer thoughtfully, for example the m303 has a Slide input that aims to mimic the TB-303 sound. It never hurts to go the VST route (and certainly helps the budget) but as someone who started his Eurorack journey to make ambient/drone/noise I couldn't resist making squelches once I got a rack in my hands... there's something there there.
I'm interested in this thread as I'm also thinking of slowly relieving Ableton Live from its FX duties.
-- Mazz
Well, maybe the simpler ones...there's still plenty of things that software can do that hardware can't.
As for what's needed to really integrate hardware with a software "engine," that would be a mixer that has ample sends and returns. Or you can use some spare I/O channels to establish send/returns from inside Ableton to outboard devices. I don't think it's a very good idea to try and get audio out of and then back into the modular just by adding a matrix mixer and plugging effects processors into that. For one thing, there's a big level mismatch, so you'd need extra modules to drop/raise the levels so that you weren't prone to overloading the effects or not having enough level on the return to work within the synth. That's going to cost, both in terms of $$$ and hp.
But there IS a way to make this work with a minimum of additional I/O modules, and that's by putting together a parallel mixing setup for your effects processors.
Let's say for a minute that you could do this exact thing by adding only TWO channels of I/O level shifting, but you've got a PILE of processors. So, drop in a stereo I/O...something like a Ladik A-595, for example. Now you've got what's needed to move a stereo signal out and back. Then, add a distribution amp...it's sort of the rack gear equivalent to a buffered multiple...and route your effects outputs from this as it splits your stereo Eurorack send. Then on the other side, use a small rack mixer (I prefer Rane's SM 26B for this, as it works as either a signal splitter OR a 6-input stereo submixer) to submix your processing back to the stereo Eurorack return. The fact that the Ladik module is both cheap AND small can make this work, and all you'll need "outside" would be those two devices, and maybe a 1/4" patchbay if you want to make changes to your routings easily. Alternately, you could use Ladik's P-520 to have four channels of output, and still use a stereo line return while using just the outboard submixer for FX summing; if you had four mono-in/stereo-out processors (something like certain stompboxes, or classic rack processors such as Yamaha's SPX90), one P-520 would handle that and, by using the outboard submixer, you can create a fairly elaborate AUX setup for submixing different voices. And so on...it's the sort of setup that's really only limited by imagination and $$$.
The thing about the TB-303 is that the key to its sound isn't necessarily found in the synth part of the device. The SEQUENCER is the important part; the way it handles legato, the way the "glide" function works, etc etc...all of that is where we get the "acid house" sound. It's worth noting that when users were modding their 303s back in the 1990s during the ACIIIEEED craze, those mods generally were done to expand the synthesizer, and the sequencer would be left alone for the most part.
However, I should note that I'm very much a TB-303 hater...not because I haven't used them (I have, quite some time ago), but because I could NOT see the point of dropping up to $3k for a plastic box that really only did about 7-8 things well. That, and the fact that that sound (as well as the infamous "Juno Hoover" as well as the M1 House Piano) was super-played-out unless the machine(s) were in the hands of someone who could wring something amazing out of them through adding effects, modding the synth (such as the famous "Devilfish" mod), and doing something other than yanking the batteries out to generate sequences. So I'd suggest following nickgreenberg's lead here and going with a software version...by using a VSTi version, you open up the 303 to control capabilities that the hardware sequencer in it could NEVER do, plus the sound is super-easy for a VSTi to replicate without massively upping your CPU load.
Ok, here’s the how it’s looking so far. To recap my original post: newbie interested in generative, ‘plays itself while I sort of steer’ compositions. The setup is designed to leverage VCVrack, which is why the ES-9 was the very first purchase.
Still using Lugia’s ideal state as my guide, along with some learning courses by Chris Meyer, his Patch & Tweak book (my bible) and Omri Cohen’s videos for great ideas that make the most of the VCV side.
The focus at the start was VCO + VCF. I added the Disting 4 which has been such an amazing tool to get hands on with so many functions - it’s brilliant. Diverged a little from Lugia’s setup and went with the Voltage Block for CV modulation source. I’m having so much fun plugging it into the Linnaeus every which way. Added some VCAs and the A*B+C, which I don’t fully understand but I know I can use it for more VCAs, mixer, and it gives me a degree of hands-on control over some of the VCV modules.
The new additions are the Rampage and Pam’s New Workout – I think I can also have quite a bit of fun in standalone mode, without the computer. I’m not going to buy any more modules (famous last words) until I fully understand what I have, explore in conjunction with VCV, get an idea of which aspects I want to have hands-on fun with, versus what VCV can take care of. The general approach has been to generate signals in the rack and complete their paths in VCV.
I think the next phase would be to learn how to program generative. The bottom half of Lugia’s layout I do not understand whatsoever, so I want to learn the principles/techniques behind them in VCV and eventually start building some of that into the rack (at which point it’ll surely bust out beyond the 6u case). I love the concept of creating a sequencer by connecting a few modules instead of buying one that does it all for me. The music-friendly generative modules like Marbles and Bloom sound intriguing but I wonder if it removes some of the potential learning if I get anything like that too soon… I expect it’ll take at least a year to get my head around the basics of how the brain works, how to use clocks to spawn a complex sequence etc.
I like the sounds that I'm getting now but I feel like they get monotonous unless I'm constantly tweaking. I'd like to add some more structure but I also want to be able to self-modulate or add randomness to that structure to keep things interesting. I'm still relatively noob and have been working on this for about a year now. I feel like I'm missing some utilities but maybe it's just me.
I'm interested in this thread as I'm also thinking of slowly relieving Ableton Live from its FX duties.
So adding to the OP's question, do you guys reckon a matrix mixer, such as the Doepfer A-138M, is an efficient tool for FX send/return duties?
Got some more new toys.
Picked up Pachinko (Marbles Clone), Ornament and Crime, Ochd (have a Klavis Quadigy coming)
Drums - Kick, Clap, HH samples on Blackbox, Pyramid Sequencer
Only Voice
Humble Quad Operator (This one is a beast of fm goodness)
Tons of modulation
Pachinko, an O_c, Mimemetic, Clep Diaz, Ochd, 3xMIA, Maths, FX-Aid, Bat Verb
Two tracked into DAW,
Drums Basic Sequence
Modular Live Jam
I'm also using some external drum machines, synths and drones to make space ambient and acid techno. I haven't bought the Batumi yet, but I already have the rest. Looking for some opinions on the last 10hp (or 20hp if you think I should skip the Batumi). Thanks!
On the eloquencer, if you activate a tie on a step, gate will remain open until next (non tied) gate. You should test this with chain patterns.
-- defragmenteur
I've got the chain patterns down, are you saying it's possible to have longer gates recorded as ties? That would be very cool, maybe if that's not possible at the moment it could be implemented as a software update? I'll ask Winter Modular about this, they have great support and I'd love to do everything from within the Eloquencer without having to add another module for this purpose!
-- AudioResearch
Just tried it and it work. You can have a gate tie chain on more than one pattern.
the guitar pedal ecosystem is really rich so it can be a good way to explore different sounds. personally, and ymmv of course, i found that I liked the sound that came back through them, but not the process of using them. I didn't like the pedals hanging off the rack in a separate path, or how they were less flexible in terms of signal path, or the lack of CV modulation. I ended up moving in-rack for my effects.
In terms of recommendations, Noise Engineering's Versio platform just got a lot more interesting today with the addition of a pretty wild new stereo distortion, and an update to their reverb that uses clocked repeats. Chronoblob V2 is also solid and pretty versatile as a clocked delay that can be stereo or have a feedback loop.
Hi, you may want to investigate adding a Phaser for great acid sounds. I saw a long time ago a great video by Aiyn Zahev (Sami Rabea) about getting acid sounds using a phaser. Check it out here at about 1min45sec
The core idea is having a phaser with rate=0 (no phasing sweep) and the resonant bump from the phaser gives a lot of the "juicy / rubbery" acid sound. I'm not expert on this SO you may want to investigate it more BUT I have gotten good results from this technique using vsts; I imagine it likely works in hardware too!
Other comments:
-- I agree with above posts that portmento (slew) and a style-fitting sequencer will help get an acid sound
-- there's a ton of software that can do acid well and videos online; if you haven't already, I would say view some more videos and use some software trials to see what software setups produce acid results you like. Those will give you some ideas and validation for what you might want to achieve with a hardware setup.
The levels are different, you will have a pre-distortion on the pedal and a weak level on the return. But you can use an atenuator before the pedal and something like a MI ears to adapt the return signal.
The ALM SBG do that in 4 HP.
I've been spending a ton of time working on acid racks so I spent a few minutes on this and came away with the below:
Some notes:
1) I extended to 104HP because that extra 20HP can go a long way for us here as you'll see.
2) The biggest and probably most important addition from my POV is the Make Noise Pressure Points. This lets you easily create 4 part song structures, with let's say two of the inputs going into the meloDICER and a third controlling the Bassline filter cutoff... all of a sudden you can easily change chords and dynamics across multiple parameters with one press. Not to mention it's playable, you can use pressure to drive CV changes through the top outputs, meaning you have structured control of 3 parameters and expressive control of a fourth, lots of fun.
3) I added a WMD Time Warp for gateable slew and as another envelope generator.
4) I added a Bin Seq and a Tree to get weird gate patterns going. This isn't something I've tried personally so you could take another route and add a temps_utile or an Intellijel Steppy and get good and perhaps more grokable results that way too.
5) Pip Slope as a backup envelope generator and also as an LFO.
6) FX Aid because it's got huge range and is superior to the Delay and Verb at their own game from what I can tell.
7) A Disting MK4 to fill in any number of possibilities, wavefolder, recorder, tuner, more effects, etc.
8) I left 4HP open for you to fill in with a distortion module of your choice, I couldn't pick one (though I love the Manhattan Analog DTA) but ultimately the Erica Synths one felt like it took up too much space so I cut it.
Some alternate possibilities worth considering:
1) With Metropolix coming out Metropolises will be going on sale used at a discount I bet, probably worth comparing to the melodicer, in which case you could cut the Time Warp.
2) I recently got an M303 and love it, compare it sound wise to the Bassline and throw the X0X Heart in there too to see all the voice options out there.
Hope this is helpful, and let us know what you end up with!
