Not trying to take away from your perspective or personal experience, I've just had a couple of very good customer service experiences with them. The other involving feature requests and what-not.

It's good they helped you mate, but its yet another example of a product that obviously hadn't gone through a good enough quality control process. None of the above has dissuaded me from re-evaluating my arguments, I would still choose Behringer any day of the week over these cowboys but I guess this is because I have many of their products and to date all of them have been rock solid in terms of functionality and performance for me

Thanks for the chat merzky, its been a pleasure :)

Hi Glenn, nice selection (and rack name). I agree you could use some more cv mixing/manipulation. A Xaoc Samara II (offset, attenuate, invert, s&h, logic, mix) and a Frap Tools 333 (mult+mix) might be helpful. That Ladik M-174 mixer seems rather large to me. Maybe get a smaller Doepfer A138s instead? Now you should still have some space left. Which is good as there are a bunch of potentially interesting things missing (as far as I can tell), like a wavefolder, comparator, a small utility filter etc. Look into those once you're familiar with what you have.

The Ladik output modules are attentuators already. Albeit with a fixed attenuation level. You should be fine. Personally I prefer balanced outputs, but these consume more space (and money). And you'll find lots of people disputing the need for dedicated output modules anyway. So, IMO these are a good choice to start with.

Cheers, Chris

EDITED Jul 16th 2021, 12:36

Previous/Next Page Buttons

The Previous/Next Page Buttons top right on the module detail page now work more in an expected way:
If you come from the Module Finder page those buttons now follow the search results.
Before that they always advanced by the upload date of a module which mostly was pretty much useless.

Very nice track! Subtle and melodically interesting. Enjoy the nice weather when you can! It's been cloudy and raining a lot here in Indianapolis (and MotoGP is on summer break - I'm a huge fan) so I have been spending a lot more time recently playing with instruments. But I'd like the hot sunny days to come back.

Hi,

This is a build created with help from the forums from two awesome members. I changed some things up a bit. Nothing is certain yet ofc. I have a few points of concern left.

• Not enough mults/attenuators/offset generators. I have thought about:U-110 from Ladik. Also there is a M174 mixer that will join my modules soon if I can get to order it. I have some of the modules laying here while my case is getting build. My question basically is: Will I notice these are missing would I build this whole system as it stands here?

• The outputs. The main idea was first: A toppobrilo 4 channel mixer. (I hope I spelled that correct :) ) + A Ciao from Bastl. Stuff goes from the Toppobrilo to some fx and goes to the Ciao Bastl Then out to my Daw. But this is not what I want. I want to multitrack to my daw (8 channel UCX). I was thinking about some Ladik P50 4 Ch (outs).

https://www.modulargrid.net/e/ladik-p-520-4ch-out-line

Can I then just let my audio run trough the Ladik P50's. Then to my I/O and hope for the best? Or is there a better more efficient way? Maybe put some attenuators in front of those P50's? I'm overstudying this and getting lost and I would appreciate any kind of help.

Thank you very much.

Kind regards,

Glenn

Quite spiffy, yep...wonder which return is active if you only have a TS 1/4" coming back in in mono, tho...
-- Lugia

Almost certainly the left input.

Hey, Garfield, be patient. It’s a good service.
-- MichaelCrowley

Just an aside, but maybe...just MAYBE...you should take some mass-comm classes in advertising. Because, clearly, this strategy ain't workin'!

Of course, a lot of that is due to your efforts being analogous to trying to sell hamburgers in a colony of vegans, or something similarly tone-deaf. Look up "targeted marketing" sometime.

EDITED Jul 16th 2021, 01:12

I did misstate my goals for the system. The idea was to provide a "standard" instrument arrangement (e.g. bass, drums, lead, arp) in a single system, while still allowing for some wierd-sound exploration. And that's really my goal with modular - sound exploration in a non-DAW environment.
-- jtunes_ia

Ahhh...now, see, that makes much more sense. So, let's tear into this...

First up, having drums IN the cab is probably not the right way to proceed at present, given that you can get all sorts of much more capable standalone drum machines for far less than the modules needed plus the cost of the space they'll take up. You definitely want a machine that you can lock up to the DAW and modular, so that also gives some indications of how to proceed with interfacing on the modular so that everything "plays nice". This doesn't mean you can't send the machine THRU the modular, however; a good stereo input preamp + envelope following = very wild filter-swept percussives in step with the percussion itself. Or lots of other possible implementations. But this then means you'd have a bit of a different mixer complement, because you'll want a mixer that has enough stereo inputs if you're going to do that.

This is pretty much how it works. Define a need, vet whether or not it'll work, then figure out how to implement it. And once you figure THAT out, vet it again...this time with an eye toward conserving space + money. Do you HAVE TO have that set of modules? Can you do it cheaper? More effectively? Would an outboard device be better-suited to the solution? All of these should be in mind while thrashing out a build.

Now, let's see...basic voicing...so, with the bass part, you're going to want two of the same VCO. This is super-important, because you want to be able to detune between them so that the sound gets HUGE. Maybe a bit of waveshaping to get the sound more "in yer face", and then a solid 4-pole LPF...the old Moog ladder topology would be perfect.

The arpeggi/harmonic part is also pretty straightforward up to the point where you start considering how you want timing to work. Do you want just straight-up clocking? Do you want to mess with the clock signals? If so, how? Random drops? Some swing? Boolean logic funtime? This is where VCV comes in, because it's far more difficult to explain this sort of thing and much BETTER to just have at the circuitry to sort out what works for you. However, if you pull up the "clock modulator" category here, you can see there's TONS of possible methods (some making more sense than others!) for altering timing behavior. So pretty much any sort of rhythmic trickery applies here; you can even treat certain sequencers (Euclideans!) as "clock modulators" with internal stochastics.

Now, that lead part...this is actually where you'll want to throw in a LOT of different tweakable parameters in the form of modules in the "voice's" signal chain. So, waveshapers are on the table, distorters, oddball filtering, granularization (a very effective method of "accumulating" yet another multi-"voice" layer, btw), delays, phasers, all that cray shiz...BECAUSE this one voice has to be the most variable and most memorable, as it's out front lots of the time. But by having lots of modules in that signal path that you can bring in and out of the chain and constantly adjust, this will make that one voice jump right out there where it belongs. Problem is, though...what sort of aesthetic in general does this aim for? That'll make a big difference in which modules you'll want for that. For example, if you were doing something more, say, 90s Goa Trance-ish, you probably wouldn't want some Schlappi Engineering stuff in there...but if you were taking your lead voice cues from something like Black Dice, then yeah, you definitely want sound manglers like that.

And as for the users disparaging the idea of hanging onto an instrument for 15, 20 or more years...well, lessee what's in here...

Roland JP-6 (bought 1990)
Yamaha CS-80 (bought 1993)
Casio CZ-101 (bought 1992)
Fairchild Reverbertron 659 (bought 1994)
PTI Ecoplate II (bought 1994)

...and so on. And don't even get me started on the lab gear, some of which dates back to the late 1940s! Yeah, I would have some misgivings about holding onto, say, a Roland D-10 for that long (or for ANY amount of time...man, what a lousy synth!)...but none of those devices (among tons of others here) are ones that I would think you can "deplete" very quickly. That's the key...if something is USEFUL, you don't tend to let it go. And by "useful", I mean that you can dig and dig and dig at programming, and STILL not hit the end of the sonic possibilities.

So...proceed slowly, build something HUGE...and then, start paring it back. Take it down to a point at which you know you can't go any "lower" but where you've still got that sonic versatility, and that's where you might consider stopping. Or, just as likely, something in the pare-down jogs an idea loose and you're back to filling holes again, but with a tighter perspective on what goes in them. It's a process...takes time, if done right, and you'll find yourself constantly rescrambling things in the builds on here. But this is the slow but VERY rewarding process of creating a bespoke instrument based on YOUR music. It ain't simple.

Other trick: start going thru the racks on here. You'll find some builds by some pretty significant folks, and given their experience levels, those builds are great "textbooks" on construction, especially since you'll have some knowledge of what music those synthesists create. Just using the "grid" itself is cool and all, but you can get a really good education on how others have approached their music via this hardware by nosing around in the builds.

And another useful thing: do you want this to be in Eurorack? Because you don't have to...you can try builds in other formats such as the 5U Moog format, Buchla 4U, Serge 4U and so on. And all of THOSE bring interesting and different things to the table...as well as their own particular drawbacks, just like Eurorack.

Anyways, apologies for coming off as cranky as I did before...but when I see someone coming down the pike with a pile of money, noisy ambitions, and so on, it's...well, not like I'm trying to swift-kick 'em for no reason. Instead, I (and I'm sure lots of others) would rather not see yet another build with no VCAs, etc that will wind up in a closet for the next couple of decades. Instead of that, everyone here REALLY wants (I would HOPE) for newcomers to modular to do their builds right so that, rather than being turned-off by the complexity, they REALLY WILL be playing parts of that first system some 20 years down the line in what will likely be very expanded systems that started with little 2 x 84 builds. There's no reason why anyone shouldn't want that, to be honest. Might take the verbal equivalent of a good WHACK on the back by a Rinzai Zen Master (not me, mind you...Shin Buddhist here, not Zen) to get there, but as long as we all DO get there, well, hey...

Well, I put the Neutron in so I could see it alongside the modules. But the plan was to make a 4u case! You may have gathered from my module choices -- I'm doing this on a tiny budget. First case will be cardboard and gaffa tape. So, no, no plans to take the Neutron out of it's case and throw out its power supply!
Currently trying to work out where I could fit another 3u case in the office. Can't see how. Cross that bridge once I've filled the first one, I suppose…

Hi Michael and Moderator,

Michael: I am usually a very patient person however I do enormously hate spam as in such extend that I do think jail sentence should be put onto it, worldwide, to solve the ever spam problem. But let's not get started politically, that's not wanted on this forum :-) (same goes by the way for spam that's also not wanted on this forum, hence this discussion)

So you ask me to be patience, for what? I am still patiently waiting for your explanation how your link is related with modular synthesizers, though I am patient about it, I still would like to know it :-)

Moderator: If we wait a bit patiently about an answer and then either don't hear the explanation how this link is related to modular synthesizers and/or this is still related to spam, I still would like to vote for having Michael removed from this forum.

Both: Thank you very much and kind regards, Garfield.

Edit: Removed typo.

EDITED Jul 15th 2021, 20:16

@greenfly

I quite clearly got the impression that they were preying on my naivety about Eurorack and stated at one point in the discussions that a lighting bolt may have caused a momentary power surge on the 5v rail causing their modules to burn out which is really odd as none of my other modules were affected.

That def sucks.

They play the clowns as part of their marketing strategy but the reality is that is who they are and its a shame the guy from Pittsburg Modular is associating himself with them. They probably roped him into their scam to improve their credibility factor and its something they are really pushing through the shills on youtube they've recruited.

This feel a bit presumptuous and a little unfair. I will say that I also had issues with my first power board also. Bought it in June of last year. The -12v rail only provided -3v. This was the response I got 1 day later:

Hi [merzky_shoom],

Thanks for reaching out and sorry to hear about this issue.

It sounds like a component on the power supply may have failed or has been damaged. Was this happening from initial purchase or suddenly? If suddenly, please provide a little more detail ie. modules used, describe what happened when it failed, and anything else you think might prove useful.

Regardless, we can quickly send you a replacment board that can easily be installed (a nut and a screw). We will provide video instructions as well.

Please send us your shipping address and answers to the questions above so that we make sure that we're fully treating the issue.

Thanks much!

All the best,

Al

2 days later the board was shipped. I'm sorry to hear that you had a different experience. I did "upgrade" to a Behringer Eurorack GO, and it's good value for sure... but the case is almost full and I'm not 100% confident that it's the most dependable solution for the $4000 worth of modules that are sitting in it. My hope is to properly upgrade my case before end of October.

Not trying to take away from your perspective or personal experience, I've just had a couple of very good customer service experiences with them. The other involving feature requests and what-not.

And at least one of their founders was working with a previous Modular manufacturer before splitting off to create Cre8Audio, so IMO it isn't likely they just popped up out of nowhere and said, "Here's a market we can take advantage of"

EDITED Jul 15th 2021, 19:48

Just seems like an odd take to me. Especially going as far as to speak to the future readers of this thread and steer them away from a module before literally any evidence of their quality is understood, in either direction.

Just speaking from personal experience of my dealings with them when there were problems with their modules. I quite clearly got the impression that they were preying on my naivety about Eurorack and stated at one point in the discussions that a lighting bolt may have caused a momentary power surge on the 5v rail causing their modules to burn out which is really odd as none of my other modules were affected. They play the clowns as part of their marketing strategy but the reality is that is who they are and its a shame the guy from Pittsburg Modular is associating himself with them. They probably roped him into their scam to improve their credibility factor and its something they are really pushing through the shills on youtube they've recruited.

Others may have had a great experience like Andy and I'm happy for him but I can only base my assessment on first hand dealings with them. Hope that clarifies.

As for the nifty case, I have it and still use it but in hindsight, I think a Moog or Behringer skiff would have been better to create a larger more complete system than what 84hp allows. Behringer have recently been asking for some feedback on their cases and modules in terms of price and competiveness and I reckon we will see a drop in prices for cases in the near future. I recently did some calculations with power and 3 skiffs with brackets and the combined cost wasn't far off an Intellijel pallete or tip top mantis which I fed back to them. Once I can get cheaper Behringer skiffs with power, I will be getting rid of the nifty case.

I am a bit more familiar with Eurorack now given the experience I had. I learnt that companies like Noise Engineering draw power from the 12v rail for any 5v requirements but had the forethought to include a jumper on their module so users can make an informed decision about how power is being consumed. I learnt that Mutable have regulators in their older modules that take care of the 5v requirements and eventually decided to abandon use of the 5v rail altogether. Cre8audio simply didn't make similar design considerations in their modules which I guess is why they have the moniker 'cheap and cheerful'.

EDITED Jul 15th 2021, 19:32

things I learned a shitton from when I started out..
* Behringer Crave (±150euro patchable monosynth)
* Patch & Tweak book
* VCVrack
* YouTube

Thanks again!

Thank for your advice!
Maybe I will start with those Doepfer modules. After adding a filter,vca, attenuverter, would it be a usable synth voice?
I would like to learn about the signal flow, and then the modulation, effects,... Where could I read more about it? Is there any threads that will help with basic knowledge?

-- baygiooday

You might want to research "Eurorack Synth Voices". A synth voice is generally a complete compliment of VCOs, filters, VCAs, LFO, etc. Most if not all elements are normalized (internally patched) with the ability to break those normal connections and reroute them for advanced patching.

The Behringer Neutron can be considered a synth voice and at $300US is a pretty good set-up for learning on. The Intellijel Atlantis is a great synth voice. But it's more expensive and requires a case to power it.

As far as learning. There are tons of great tutorials on Youtube that take you through the very basics of modular design and use.

Do you do much swapping out of waveforms on the Piston Honda? Or have you settled on some you really like and just stick with those? Do you have favorites from the WaveEdit stockpile or do you make your own?

I would like to learn about the signal flow, and then the modulation, effects,... Where could I read more about it? Is there any threads that will help with basic knowledge?

-- baygiooday

JB's advice is on point, if you want to read on it even more, there's plethora of knowledge to be gained in the stickies here: https://modwiggler.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=16

I took a cross-country road trip a few years ago, and the journey was just as fun as the destination. Same thing applies when building your rack. Above all, have fun.

-- farkas

Nailed it. This is excellent advice for a lot of things in life, and of course especially everything art-related !

I just may be an idiot and not able to pick up on stuff as well as others, but that has been my path so far and I'm glad I'm doing it the way I am....somewhat slow and steady...you will be tempted (as I have been)...and you will see a module you want in your rack that someone has for a good price (as I have)...and you will buy it (I've done it twice now with Warps and FX Aid XL)...but try to hold back somewhat and give yourself some room to breath and learn...I haven't even plugged in my FX Aid XL into anything yet because Warps, Maths, and Quadrax have kept me up into the morning hours multiple times and I still am just scratching the surface.
-- jb61264

You come across as being very far from an idiot, don't let anyone tell you that ! You are enjoying your hobby, and you take it at a pace you can handle and enjoy, that's actually a great way to go about it IMHO. And yeah, Maths + Quadrax is also in my rack, and I'm also just scratching the surface after months of having both, I think that's fine as long as... I'm having fun. I would have been completely overwhelmed myself if I had started with these 2 together ;-)
In fact, I think "take it slow" and "enjoy" should be at the very top of modular advice, along with "buy a bigger rack than you think you'll need" and "you will probably need more VCA's and ways to combine/mess with modulation".

Everybody's advice is good to take as long as you remember you need to make it your own idea and not just copy someone else's.

Where could I read more about it? Is there any threads that will help with basic knowledge?

-- baygiooday
Chris Meyer has some great courses available here: https://learningmodular.com/

I took a cross-country road trip a few years ago, and the journey was just as fun as the destination. Same thing applies when building your rack. Above all, have fun.

-- farkas

Love that analogy and applies to what I'm doing with my modular 'journey'.

You already have a lot of good advice from members who have been doing this for a long time (at least I think most of the replies are from those who have been doing it for a long time). I could never give you anywhere near the great advice you'll get from them, only that I am in a similar spot as you in that I'm very new to modular as well.

I can definitely attest to the advice of going slow. I originally bought a Hydrasynth desktop knowing it had some modular capabilities and that I knew I wanted to dip my toes into the modular world. I spent a good 3-4 months learning the Hydrasynth (and am still learning it today) and also reading up on modular, asking questions here and finally putting a rack out on the forum and letting members provide some feedback based on my goals with the system (which are to have a 'hybrid' setup where I can extend the capability of my Hydrasynth and also use CV Tools with Ableton going forward). I got some great feedback and now I'm 'gradually' building out my Rackbrute 6U (I also bought an Arturia Minibrute 2 at the same time as I bought the Hydrasynth). My idea was to use the Minibrute 2/Rackbrute 6U as my foray into modular...and of course the Hydrasynth. I haven't even really touched the Minibrute 2 yet...and that is probably the point of my post...this stuff gets deeeeeeep quick and you will want to spend time learning each of the modules capabilities. To emphasize that point, my first purchase was Maths...that was 6 weeks ago now I think...I'm still going through a tutorial that has like 22 examples of what it can do...many times I have to go back and redo one of them to remember what it did and how it did it...I'm still learning new ways to use it. A couple weeks ago, I got Quadrax and the learning curve just went exponential with not only learning what Quadrax could do on its own but how I can use Quadrax and Maths together with my Hydrasynth to do some crazy stuff. I can't even imagine going out and buying my intended complete rack and trying to learn everything...it would be overwhelming...heck, it is overwhelming as it is...lol.

I just may be an idiot and not able to pick up on stuff as well as others, but that has been my path so far and I'm glad I'm doing it the way I am....somewhat slow and steady...you will be tempted (as I have been)...and you will see a module you want in your rack that someone has for a good price (as I have)...and you will buy it (I've done it twice now with Warps and FX Aid XL)...but try to hold back somewhat and give yourself some room to breath and learn...I haven't even plugged in my FX Aid XL into anything yet because Warps, Maths, and Quadrax have kept me up into the morning hours multiple times and I still am just scratching the surface.

I'll stop rambling now, but just wanted to add a comment from someone who is also new to the game...these guys give great advice...take it...go slow, research, download VCV rack, ask lots of questions, seriously consider what your goal(s) is/are with modular and then ask for advice on what to build. You'll be glad you did...I am.

I think Cre8Audio get a hard time over their stuff…

I fancied playing with modular and with the NiftyBundle I got a case and some OKish modules to start building on for £222

Yes, I'm going to run out of space with only 84hp, and yes I'm going to need to replace Chipz and Cellzs sooner or later but as a place to start it's been great and very cost effective

every time someone comes along with their idea of what's going to make them a SUPAH-STAAHH and I or someone else points out the deficiencies in their line of thinking. And this has been going on for a long time; I can recall an incident back in the pre-browser days on USENET where someone popped up on one of the groups, bellowing about his brand new MORPHEUS, and how this brand new MORPHEUS was going to be THE THING that was gonna take him right to the top!!!

Yeah, right.

Fact is, this argument that a given device will vault you into stardom is a load of crap. It's the inverse corollory to blaming your equipment for your own musical shortcomings. Both notions are equally false. Your musicianship depends on YOU...not a Magic Box or whatever.

Now, yeah, sure...you might BE capable of grabbing the (somewhat cursed) brass ring of getting big in music.
-- Lugia

I have never once seen anyone in this forum (beginner or veteran) suggest the idea that a modular synth is their ticket to the big time. Is that even something that people still want? I'm sure some folks have a dream of becoming an "influencer" or whatever, but I think people are smart enough to realize that an esoteric and prohibitively expensive medium and genre of music is not going to lead to adoring fans and red carpets.
This is an odd assumption about our new member. Why can't we assume that this is a fun hobby for most people? Not everyone has some Nietzschean "suffer-for-my-art-martyr-to-my-LFO" complex haunting them. Some people just want to make a 4/4 beat and dance around their room as an escape from the day job that is undoubtedly funding this hobby.

Jack (and any other new member reading this), have fun with your new hobby. Be aware that it can be very expensive, and you will find yourself scratching your head trying to figure out some tasks that are simple in a hardwired synth/drum machine, and you will likely need to do a lot of research and re-planning to get an instrument that gets you to the sound in your head. Also be aware that you CAN achieve the sound in your head with modular and it's incredibly satisfying. I took a cross-country road trip a few years ago, and the journey was just as fun as the destination. Same thing applies when building your rack. Above all, have fun.

If you would like a bit more guidance, maybe you can share some examples of the type of sounds you are hoping to create, or if you already have any other gear that you can use as a supplement to your rack. That way we can point you in the right direction.
Good luck!

Designing your own system is awesome. But that might be a bit much for someone who doesn't have any hands on experience in modular. No one starts out knowing what they are doing... only assuming that they know.

Make Noise and Roland have some nice preconfigured systems.

The 500 series from Roland is pretty much a classic modular system in Eurorack. You can't go wrong there.
Make Noise has a few contemporary preconfigured systems that incorporate digital modules.

Behringer just came out with their own preconfigured systems as well. I don't think you can go wrong there either. Behringer is notorious, though.

-- Ronin1973

Thank for your advice!
Maybe I will start with those Doepfer modules. After adding a filter,vca, attenuverter, would it be a usable synth voice?
I would like to learn about the signal flow, and then the modulation, effects,... Where could I read more about it? Is there any threads that will help with basic knowledge?

Hi Michael, and Moderator,

What the hack has this to do with modular synthesizers? To me this looks like spam... if not, please explain yourself.

Moderator, if this looks like spam to you as well, can you please remove Michael from this forum?

Thank you very much and kind regards, Garfield.
-- GarfieldModular

Hey, Garfield, be patient. It’s a good service.
-- MichaelCrowley

Poor spammers are supporting their spam manually ? LoL, I thought you'd at least have the skills to automate this kind of stuff. Low life for life, apparently

@some_dude: I don't know Timbre & Timbre (it looks & sounds pretty good for your use case though) but I do know the Tritone. I've had it in my rack for a little while and it's absolutely great for either EQ or distortion duties, sounds beautiful and having the ability to chain channels together brings a lot of depth. Happy Nerding FTW !

The idea was to provide a "standard" instrument arrangement (e.g. bass, drums, lead, arp) in a single system, while still allowing for some wierd-sound exploration. And that's really my goal with modular - sound exploration in a non-DAW environment.
-- jtunes_ia

Hello and welcome to MG !
While that sounds like an epic goal (hell, I had the same when I started), I want to offer my personal experience on the matter. Bear in mind, it's only that, advice coming from my personal experience :-)
The fact is that modular is very expensive so as Lower Rhythm very well puts it, you want the use of your hard earned money to be maximized and for the type of electronic music you refer to, any drum machine will maximize $$$ way better than any drum module. I tried - and sorta failed - to go down the road of complete groovebox when I started my journey, and eventually bought back a small MPC for the drum duties because I realized that what I was doing with drum modules was a subset of what I can do with an MPC/Digitakt/Deluge (I had extensive prior experience with that sort of groovebox device before), and that if I wanted to justify having modular drums, it would 1. require a lot more supporting modules (modulation sources, submixers, etc) which cost $$$ and 2. perhaps more importantly, require a lot of attention/time to actually handle the complexity of modular drums.
If you buy a 2nd hand drum machine, you can test drive that setup for at least a few months and not loose any cash if you decide to resell the drum machine. Same goes for most 2nd hand modules BTW, what a nice way to try things out (but the selling/buying can take some time and patience). You can then plan a very small modular setup to start getting your hands dirty (but please consider VCV first, a lot of learning there if you're ok with using computers for music), if you're inventive you could most likely use it to synthetize most of your synth sounds and even produce drum-ish sounds for your sample-based drum machine. I can almost guarantee that Digitakt/MPC+ a small well-thought-of 104HP modular can get you pretty far already, and most importantly as Wishbone Brewery said it, it will be fun for a long while.
Hope this helps ;)
D.

I think you could use this to make music, but you'd probably spend an extra 2000 on selling and switching out modules until you arrived at something you actually find usable.

You'll end up doing a lot of that anyway, but buying everything upfront is a surefire way to maximise waste.

If you're dead set on modular I'd take the VCV advice. If you haven't made electronic music before, trying using Reason or something else to find your feet and discover the joy of patching. Eurorack strikes me as a pretty treacherous place to start, unless you've got a focused vision and load of money lying around.

Also you don't need a dedicated module to do ducking, you can do this with vcas or Optomix. Part of the enjoyment for me is finding ways to make the most of simple components.

Fact is, we aren't gatekeeping people out of modular here...but we ARE trying to gatekeep people from making some really awful decisions and winding up with a generally-unplayable instrument.
-- Lugia

Here we go, this feels like starting an argument ;-)

I realise you always put the time in to write a heck of a lot, I read your first response and those of others and I just think, "way to go, disheartening another person who is interested in modular", then the response from the post originator was clearly disheartened.

I'm not a fan of this, I dare say some of the words written to me on my first post on this forum made me think WTF and Who the F***! Hardly the hi and welcome to the forum, be careful what you spend, DON'T DO MODULAR!

I feel there are more beneficial manners of helping, Blunt Critique is your best mate telling you that that thing you built is sh!t, you laugh and buy them another Pint, not a person they have never met on a forum they have just joined because of an interest in making music / sound or simply something for pure enjoyment.

So in general, I do feel there is a lot of helpful words within the responses on this forum but folks need to chill a bit.

And I'm totally fine with it if you don't think I should be pointing this out ;-)

My main driver is FUN and I'm here for the journey, and so far a Price: €6.226 Journey.

Cats are an important part :)

There's a difference between being blunt and belligerent, especially when the bluntness is being delivered along some very thin lines of opinion and some off the wall assumption. Good grief. I do not miss those personality types from my days as an engineer.

VCV rack is a good choice for starting off in modular because it's A. Free-ish, and B. Nothing ever works or interacts quite the way you're going to guess that it will. This is why people also say to start small. It's also a good idea to consider starting with some basic building blocks, because it will really help your ability to understand what's going on under the hood to have experience creating some more complex functions from those simple parts. A lot of people I know go out and buy specialized modules every time they have a problem they want to solve, rather than figuring out how to solve it with what's in front of them. Labels and panels lie! All modules do the same thing, move electricity, just in different ways. It's essential to prioritize this kind of knowledge. Down the road it will blow your mind the kinds of unexpected things you can do off-label.

I think the system you designed is primarily weak on utilities, which is not an uncommon sight. That shit may seem boring at first, but it won't later. Attenuation, inversion, offsets, CV / audio mixers, etc. are crazy powerful tools. Utilities are the bread and butter of modular. Having a goal in mind is great because it means you're in problem solving mode. Ducking important? Cool, you found a solution. When you start piecing this thing together, just remain fluid about what goes in and out of the case. Expect to buy and sell. Thankfully eurorack gear holds a lot of its value on the used market. And lord, who gives a rat's ass what you're doing in 2040? Hell, you could be dead. You don't need to reinvent the wheel, just dig in and see where it goes. Certain kinds of gear are theoretically better for certain applications, but the beauty of modular is just that -- its modular. You can tweak all sorts of modular gear to do all sorts of different kinds of things. Both you as a musician, and your machine as your toolbox, are going to change and evolve. You can't really predict where that might go, so sweating something like that is likely going to be counterproductive.

I'd consider a couple of things with where you're at:

1. How you want to pit HP against performance, and even ethics. Case in point, the MI modules. There are much smaller third party versions. Cramped as hell though, and you might not be okay with those purchases depending on how you feel about the way the open source is being used.

2. Lean more towards your melodic / drone elements, or more towards your percussion at first. There's nothing that says a system can't be a hodgepodge that does it all amorphously, but it looks to me like you want some dedicated gear. If I had X dollars, I'd try to use it to maximize what I can do in just one of those areas at a time, to make it easier to design and explore.

3. Spend more up front on a larger case, unless you're buying into a case system that's expandable (such as the Mantis stuff, which are easily joined). What it looks like you want to do is going to take more space than you're giving yourself sooner or later. It'll save you money in the long run vs. ending up like a lot of people juggling ten small cases.

4. It might be more helpful to start another thread, only from the angle of "Here are the modules I'm interested in, here is what I want to do... what's the most minimal version of this I can make to get started?" I also recommend doing so over on Modwiggler, because this place seems more prone to unhelpful narratives.

5. Don't overthink it. :) ...talking about gear is super fun, but dialog and actuality are very different. Just pull a few triggers and see what happens.

Hope some of that helps! Good luck on your journey.

@lugia I'm sorry. I misunderstood you and I overreacted. Let me try again.

I did misstate my goals for the system. The idea was to provide a "standard" instrument arrangement (e.g. bass, drums, lead, arp) in a single system, while still allowing for some wierd-sound exploration. And that's really my goal with modular - sound exploration in a non-DAW environment.

When I said "EDM", I was only referring to the ducking clichė. I now see that I don't know what the heck I'm talking about, and that I need to stop using that term. I'm sorry I confused you.

By the way, I don't really want to "get big" in music, and I never expected modular to get me there. I just like making/sharing music, and I think modular will help me have fun doing it.

Thanks for suggesting VCVRack. I'll try that first.

All the best,
Jack

EDITED Jul 15th 2021, 03:07

I mean, I don’t exactly disagree with either of you as far as other companies that make great modules. I’m just not exactly ready to write off cre8audio as a manufacturer because their very first 2 modules to hit production were not $300 quality at a $99 pricepoint. Especially since their entire point was to get people “up and running” immediately in a compact, cost-effective package. I doubt longevity is on anyone’s mind who purchases them. It certainly wasn’t an expectation of mine when I first got them. I didn’t expect them to even last this long.

Just seems like an odd take to me. Especially going as far as to speak to the future readers of this thread and steer them away from a module before literally any evidence of their quality is understood, in either direction.

Dreadbox is a great company. My first (and only, now sold) semi-modular was an NYX and it was great.

Noise Reap also. I had the swiss army mixer in my niftycase within a few weeks of getting the Nifty.

I just genuinely don’t understand why you would condemn a product or it’s producer so strongly without any concept as to the actual module in question and whether it represents an improvement in quality, no change, or a degredation. All of which are quite possible, surely.

My take on this is that if you want both "cheap" and "reliable" modules that have a good rep, you might want to have a look at Noise Reap's stuff. Ugly and functional appearance, but VERY interesting sonic capabilities. The Paradox, for example, is pretty nuts for only $120...it's pretty close to West Coast complex oscillator turf and other things that'll cost dearly, with crossmod FM and VCO self-modulation.

Yeah, that's spam alright. Looks like it's time for the MG crew to fire up the filtering...

As for the original question, though...have you thought about something like this: https://www.modulargrid.net/e/nonlinearcircuits-timbre-timbre That there is a pair of independent Buchla-style wavefolders, each with its own I/O and CV input. You could go with an EQ or some such, but something like these gives you a lot more latitude in terms of sound alteration/mangling...just a touch for a little ear candy, or go nutz to get something that would've scared Genesis P-Orridge! Even better, if you've got a stereo delay of some sort in there, you can feed some modulation signals to this module, then send the audio results on to the delay and have each repeat have a different timbral color! EQs and such are easy enough, but if you're in an environment where something of this sort can run and play, this seems like the way to go.

And Mr. Annoying here makes three! So, yeah...remove that Neutron!

Also, Jim makes a good point...the cab's way too small. When beginning a build here, always start with a case that you know is too big...because the reality of the situation is that the "too big" case is usually just the right size! Oh, and you're NOT trapped in an Intellijel case, either...you might want a peek here: https://reverb.com/brand/case-from-lake Case From Lake over in Italia, dahling can do alterations to their stock versions seen at that link, and those include tile rows in EITHER format...so you could do an Intellijel format one AND a "standard" one if you felt the need. Stonkin' power specs from 'em, too...they know what they're doing.

My take on this: if you have a problem with critique, maybe you should pick a different line of work. Amusingly, though, this seems to happen every time someone comes along with their idea of what's going to make them a SUPAH-STAAHH and I or someone else points out the deficiencies in their line of thinking. And this has been going on for a long time; I can recall an incident back in the pre-browser days on USENET where someone popped up on one of the groups, bellowing about his brand new MORPHEUS, and how this brand new MORPHEUS was going to be THE THING that was gonna take him right to the top!!!

Yeah, right.

Fact is, this argument that a given device will vault you into stardom is a load of crap. It's the inverse corollory to blaming your equipment for your own musical shortcomings. Both notions are equally false. Your musicianship depends on YOU...not a Magic Box or whatever.

Now, yeah, sure...you might BE capable of grabbing the (somewhat cursed) brass ring of getting big in music. But when you start confusing your efforts with your purchases, you're operating in a pretty screwed-up area. And the thing that it leads to (and which I and others have seen repeatedly on MG and loads of other places) is a sense of hubris that causes one to incinerate their lines of credit because they've managed to convince themselves of this sort of nonsense. And, also invariably, when they get THAT CONVINCED, any sort of query turns (in their minds) into some sort of ATTACK!@!!!!!!!$$$!1111

Very dumb. Go back and reread my post. Yeah, it's blunt; I wouldn't have survived the music industry as long as I have without being blunt. But notice the actual INFO there...what WILL you do if styles change? Is this system capable of open-ended sorts of work, or have you built a very expensive MC-303? HAVE you actually worked with any sort of modular equipment, virtual or otherwise? And of course, the meat at the heart of the post was ignored...which was this:

"A much smarter move would be to try and NOT fit the system to the music. Really, it should be the other way around."

No lie. Consider: the VERY-copied and now-goes-for-several-grand TB-303 was introduced in Roland's pre-MIDI days as an automated bass line (which is why it says that on there) for acts like bar bands, people doing demos, etc. It tanked. It was, at the time, the music instrument equivalent of the Atari 2600 "E.T." game. And it took several years for Larry Heard to pop into a Chicago pawn shop or used music gear joint, find one, and then MISUSE it for a little ditty called "Washing Machine". And what happens on that track and ALL of the subsequent acid house tracks in its wake is NOT how you're supposed to use a TB-303. But when you talk to a lot of these acid producers, they invariably say that what they do with the 303 is what seemed to them to be what fit with how the TB-303 worked. This is also why it took many years after acid blew up for Roland to warm up to reissuing AN (albeit not THE) TB-303 in some manner, because they thought people were using their synth "wrong" and still thought it was an abject failure...despite the clear and obvious evidence that they could've fired up a production line for them right then and there in the middle of the 1990s, charged several times what the original list of the TB-303 was for the same, already-developed device, and made out like bandits. What finally DID get them to revisit it, though, was all of the small companies making bank on their attempts to clone this thing.

But getting back to that point: if you've not done the research, not had the experience, and are operating on snap decisions, you're going to get severely burned. And I'm not talking about the synth here, but the music itself. Do you actually know what EDM producers use? Is this effort of yours based in any of their useful experiences? Do you often take a pile of money out in the yard and set it on fire? That last one is pretty much what happens if you ignore the two previous questions.

I would suggest getting over your severe butthurt and then actually discussing what you're trying to do, what the aims are, and so on. Fact is, we aren't gatekeeping people out of modular here...but we ARE trying to gatekeep people from making some really awful decisions and winding up with a generally-unplayable instrument. But if you can't handle blunt but well-meaning advice, well...

if someone is looking for a low-cost entryway into modular that doesn't involve the controversial and ethical trappings of Behringer's low-cost alternatives.

At least with Behringer, you are still getting the know how of Moog, Roland, Intellijel and Mutable Instruments in the modules they are putting out. Controversy and ethics aside that's still a better shout than putting your lot in with Cre8audio and a guy who is obviously not making enough money from his own brand. More fool him.

I am ok with big brands like Behringer, I buy through Amazon UK. If the module stops working, I simply raise the issue with Amazon and I have no hassle returns within the 12 month guarantee period.

Also the Doepfer oscillators and filters and better in terms of quality than Cre8audio stuff and as I mentioned before, if you want to go down a cheaper multifunctional route then Dreadbox chromatic modules are excellent. I get that some people don't like big bad Behringer but there are many other low cost alternatives out there. Ladik, takaab etc

If any newbies are reading this, my guess is one day you will want to sell your cre8audio modules and I can tell you right now your resale value will be at best half price. The brands I have mentioned above will resell quickly on the second hand market and generally do ok in terms of holding their value.

Hi Wishbonebrewery,

He, he, an interesting experimental jam! :-) I like the way you are going around 16:00 with that sequence and those kind of sample-voices on the background as well. Intriguing stuff you made here!

Yes, that's fun isn't it? Modulating the modulators/modulation? :-) I love to do that too.

He, he, and it is nice to see your cat again around 21:40+ :-) Was it trying to modulate even a bit more than you wanted? ;-) At about 26:10 it tries to change a few patch cables with its tail ;-) Nice finish of the track at the end, by the way.

Thanks a lot for sharing this with us and kind regards, Garfield.

Hi Balstergeist,

He, he, this short jam is nice too! One really can do weird things with that Board Chirper and tons of fun! :-D

Kind regards, Garfield.

Hi Michael, and Moderator,

What the hack has this to do with modular synthesizers? To me this looks like spam... if not, please explain yourself.

Moderator, if this looks like spam to you as well, can you please remove Michael from this forum?

Thank you very much and kind regards, Garfield.

Hi Mowse,

Okay that explains why we haven't heard from you, the good weather ;-) So looks like you got less good weather now then ;-)

At least it results in a nice track. I love that moment around 0:37 when that sequence kicks in, nice!

Thanks a lot for sharing this and kind regards, Garfield.

noob mistake - too small case

oh and take the neutron out - it has it's own case!

EDITED Jul 14th 2021, 21:41

This was mainly.... MakeNoise STO via DannySound Timbre into MakeNoise Mimeophon with a shed load of modulation and modulating the modulation..... then some more acid techno like bits.

I'm just going to let this play out for a while cos its weird.

Why don't you take the Neutron out of the Case to make Room for more Modules?

Dear gods, I see why they call this Eurocrack. Out of room already! Where's my Fixed Filter Bank?!

I'm with Wishbone. Keep researching and have fun experimenting. Most of the folks on this forum just don't want to see anyone waste a bunch of money and time to arrive at an unsatisfying outcome.
You can most definitely make an EDM focused system as Ronin highlighted. I don't think you have quite nailed it with this initial iteration though. Your best bet though is to start small with just a few modules, and let your needs dictate the future direction of your rack. It's fun to build these proposed dream racks, but it would be a terrible idea to sink a bunch of money into the whole thing without test driving a few of the parts first. I've mentioned in this forum many times that my first rack plan was almost completely different from my current rack. I bought a few modules to start with and just kept experimenting until I couldn't do what I wanted, and then researched the modules that would help me take that next step. Then I bought the next few modules, and so on. Repeat, repeat, repeat.
Have fun with your idea, but be prepared to go back to the planning stages often.

and I'd rather have to swallow my pride and question my own ethics rather than having a smoking hole in a rig and a related smoking hole in my wallet.

@Lugia

These modules are a collaboration with Pittsburgh Modular. I watched Richard Nicol's demo of these modules last night, and I was extremely impressed. For $99, this filter does a lot. And I doubt Richard would put his company's name on the line without extensive testing.

I understand that their initial roll-out of the Chips and Cellz has given plenty of reasons to be skeptical, but I have had both of them in my modular for over a year now and they still work as expected to this day. I don't have any need for the new Cr8/Pittsburgh modules, but I wouldn't dissuade anyone from buying them, especially if someone is looking for a low-cost entryway into modular that doesn't involve the controversial and ethical trappings of Behringer's low-cost alternatives.

EDITED Jul 14th 2021, 17:05

Thanks Garfield!

Here's a much shorter one.

yes, they send him the modules for free and then he reviews them. I think these people are called 'influencers'. I recall they did the same with the nifty case and modules and after reviewing them he spray painted over their logo and kept the case.

But don't let that put your off experimenting ;-)

I'm pretty sure I attacked starting modular from an "unpopular" angle, that has not stopped me having a load of fun in the process.
Now I find myself at the point where my Modular Rack is more about swapping one module out for another, sure I have a wish list of modules, but its relatively cash neutral at the moment as I sell things I find I don't need.

VCV confused the hell out of me to be honest, I found the hands on experimentation of having real modules in front of me to be more educational and fun! Its got to be fun!

It helps to have an idea what you want your rack to be from the start but these things evolve as you go, just start simple and small, I got a lot of mileage out of 10-12 (relatively cheap) modules in a Tiptop Happy Ending Kit case.