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catwavez is 100% spot on. The M32 outputs BIdirectional CVs, where the vast majority of Eurorack uses UNIdirectional CV for control. This means that while the M32 is happy as a clam with negative CVs (ie: something like -1V is valid), Eurorack usually doesn't have the ability to make sense of negative CVs. So you either get fubar tunings when the M32's CV dips below 0V, or as in this case, the module simply won't respond to CVs below 0V at all. And yes, that's what the MScale is intended to correct.
Why does this exist? Simple...it's Moog. And don't EVEN get me started about their modulars' S-Trig idiocy, either!
An immediate impression: way too many "big modules". If you can make those smaller by finding more space-efficient modules with the same functions, try that FIRST. Secondly, if you're going to wind up using Mutable clones, make sure their user interface isn't so cramped with tiny knobs that you'll need a pair of tweezers to program 'em. For example, the Michigan uBraids is a good example of how that should work, but the Plaits clone next to it...not so much.
Last: you have two enormous (for this build) sampling modules. Again, there ARE smaller solutions that can fill those functions, and they're where you might want to go with those...or perhaps, just one.
Gonna mess with this for a bit...
(EDIT) OK...here's what I cooked up:
Hoo, boy...OK, there's a few changes to the original design, but now this thing is VERY OP...
TOP: Starts off with a little Doepfer ute that gives you a ring modulator, sample and hold, and a slew limiter. Then I went with a pair of Klavis Dual Waves mkii for the FOUR oscillators this now has. Those oscillators also can serve as noise sources, and the VCO architecture there is all wavetable. These feed a Veils (if you can find one...otherwise, use Codex Modulex's quad VCAs which are clones of Veils) to control/sum the VCOs pre-VCF. Then for filters, I put in a Tiptop Forbidden Planet, which is a Steiner-Parker Synthacon VCF clone...a VERY lead-line filter! And the other for BASS is a G-Storm clone of the Roland SH-101's lowpass filter...which definitely can bang. The Elements got shrunk so much, it turned into Qu-bit's physical modeller...same idea, more space-efficient. After that there's four more VCAs which you can use post-VCF for the oscillator path and still have a stereo pair left to control the Surface's amplitude. The mixer there is Toppobrillo's Minimix, which is based on Buchla designs and which gives you THREE stereo ins (one is fixed-gain) plus FOUR mono inputs, two of which have CV panners. And at the end is a Happy Nerding Isolator...the new version with the headphone preamp, but with the same good ol' transformers for isolation and, if you hit them a bit harder, warm "big iron" saturation to give the sound more "heft".
MIDDLE: Batumi/Poti for four LFOs, then Maths because...Maths. After that is the "screw with modulation" section, with a Tiptop MISO and an Antumbra dual VCA (same topology as the Veils, even). This gets followed with a Zadar (and its expander), then there's the dual ADSR. After that is an improved clone of the Mutable Clouds, a Calsynth Cell. Now, this can be put into the audio path (above...space got tight!) at a number of points by splitting your main L-R signals, sending one side to the mixer, and the other to Cell, then you can bring the Cell signal back into the Minimix on one of its dedicated stereo faders. You can make this "Y" pretty much anywhere, though; send one Twin Waves into VCA 1 and 2 and the other through 3 and 4, then take outs 2 and 4 and drop that down to the Cell before the filters. Lots of potential trouble there...
BOTTOM: Pretty much 100% control. ES-8, then the Disting XL, and the Pam's. Then I left the Nerdseq in because it felt like a very good match with Dave Rossum's Assimil8r, both functionally AND ergonomically. Note, also, that you can easily break out the Assimil8r's eight individual outs to an external mixer, or you could send its stereo output to the Minimix, in either one of the stereo faders or you could send it as a premixed signal to the Minimix's unity-gain "EXP" stereo input.
To me, this seems a lot more solid. It's now got the necessary utility modules necessary to REALLY make it into a controllable build, plus there's some definite upgrading here, especially with doubling the amount of VCOs. See what you think...
Or at the very least, switch the Shuttle Control out with a more "open-ended" MIDI module, such as Hexinverter's Mutant Brain. Smaller, too.
As for the drum modules, I'd suggest leaving them out and using a drum machine that's locked up to a clock in the modular. That way, everything stays in sync AND you save buttloads of money in the process. Also, it opens up space that you can partly use to put four exponential VCAs in front of the A-138s, which is precisely what would give you CV over mix levels.
Might be a hole/placeholder for a third sub-module. There's several Serge modules that fit really well with the DUSG and SSG, which is what's here already.
Doesn't the mother 32 have weird CV tracking or something like that? I googled "Moog mother 32 cv in issue" and there is quite a few people with mother 32 cv problems. It's why Erica Synths released that Pico MScale module, right? Does the Beatstep have different voltage settings for the CV out? Perhaps it's set to work with the mother 32 but not, uh, "normal" V/Oct?
Well, the issue is that sending the same output to v/oct on the mother works to play notes. Doesnt matter if Im sending a sequence or playing notes with the pads(which can be used as a rudimentary keyboard). I’ve tried all the octaves.
of course i realised that utilities are ace...need an extra quad att and a pamela to sync to my hermod....love sync lfo wish to get more mult to copy signal actually have 2 intellijel 4 hub...
this sounds more like user error than anything else - please describe exactly how you are patching the bsp to the rings clone...
have you read the bsp manual? pitch is set by the knobs for the pitch sequencers - have you programmed a sequence into one of the pitch sequencers and played it? the pads generally work for triggers/gates... iirc
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
You also have very little in the way of other utilities... mixers, mults, logic, switches, etc. These are the things that make modular interesting and strange.
-- Shakespeare
Yeah, I was thinking I didn't spend enough time looking at the less 'shiny' modules. I went about choosing the modules that seemed the most fun and pretty much neglected the utility. I bought Maths since it was pretty much marketed as a 'do-all' kind of module that would turn into a lot of different utility as needed.
Do have any bang-for-your-buck kind of modules that you'd recommend?
I started in modular with a Moog Mother32, then recently got a Beatstep Pro to run longer sequences and also run my volca sample. All of that setup fairly easily and runs well, the cv out of the BSP sequences the M32 just fine.
So I decided to venture into modules, got a niftycase and an Afterlater nano rings. This is where it gets a bit odd. The same CV out that works perfectly on the M32 does not seem to work at all for the Nrings. After messing around a bit, I found I could get the ring to play notes if I use the KB out from M32, but the CV out from BSP into the v/oct gives me the same note on from multiple pads at best, and then a few times it would cause the rings to hold a tone that sounded a bit like a phone dial tone, def not the normal sound of the module. Once this happened the module didn’t respond to anything else.
Does this sound like a power source issue? Is the module damaged? When I first got it, I accidentally patched VCA out of the mother into the v/oct and played a sequence for maybe 10 seconds before I realized my error. Could I have damaged it?
Sorry for all the noob questions its just clear something is off here. I’ve done my beat to verify its not a wayward patch cable, and the beatstep pro still runs the mother32 perfectly.
and I totally agree with @Shakespeare - more utilities, more utilities, more utilities... see my signature... it's a rough guide to getting a balanced, versatile modular for the least outlay...
what utilities? the ones you need, but getting more vcas, a matrix mixer, attenuverters, attenuators, logic and offset modules would be a good start...
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
they are your plumbing, they are what allow you to have more interesting patches...
take a look at my signature - it's a basic guide to getting the most versatility for the least money - then go away and think about it... and think about it some more...
it may mean you need an extra row to fit them in, it may mean that you take stuff out of this rack and replace with different modules, it may mean you don't do anything (but this generally means you haven't thought about it deeply enough)
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
First thing I notice is that you have no VCAs. They're crucial to any system. I'm not really in the "you can't have too many VCAs" camp (I probably don't have enough for my system, given its size)... but really, you can't have too many of them, and you seem to have none at all, except for the one in the Erica Pico-system.
You also have very little in the way of other utilities... mixers, mults, logic, switches, etc. These are the things that make modular interesting and strange.
Yes, thanks! I mistakenly believed that is was always the case for this forum.
I really wouldn't bother with midi... bsp is built for pitch & gate (and modulation cv) so unless you are averse to patch cables (& remember they're intrinsic to using a modular synth) - I'd dump the midi->cv module as redundant and use that space for something useful like more utility modules...
Agreed! The small convenience factor doesn't justify the space (and price). This design even started with a Hermod, but its utility didn't seem to fit particularly well with the goal, and it was taking even more space.
SO, I, probably like an infinite number of other people, am asking for advice.
I jumped into modular feet first. I spent a lot of money on modules based on what I heard from those modules on YouTube. There was 'some' planning, but I don't think I knew enough to make the right decisions. The other huge problem that I have run into is the learning curve required. I've got into synthesis and programming Arduinos. Even have delved into Supercollider programming. This is kind of a different animal.
While I think I have an appreciable amount of knowledge, it doesn't always translate well into what any specific module does or how it does it.
I have already upgraded from a 2u x 84 hp case, to a 2u x 104 hp case and have the rest of the modules I needed to fill it up. What I have here, is what will be in the case at some point this week. I've added the NerdSeq, Polivoks, and Mimeophon that are on the way.
My question... before I run on too long, is what are some opinions on what I'm lacking in utility or function? Do I have what I need? My old rack is fairly empty now. I have an instrument interface and a wogglebug in there. Mainly, I'm looking for that "Dude, how could you have forgot to get that?" kind of advice. The truth is, I really don't know any better...yet.
I will be pairing this system with the make noise shared grid. I'm wondering if my mixing/modulation/utility needs are met? I feel i may be overdoing it with the oscillators and could possibly use some more fx in here but would love to hear other opinions. Rack is for music and sound design/processing.
I really wouldn't bother with midi... bsp is built for pitch & gate (and modulation cv) so unless you are averse to patch cables (& remember they're intrinsic to using a modular synth) - I'd dump the midi->cv module as redundant and use that space for something useful like more utility modules...
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
personally I went for adding what I though was missing - and rearranging over time so that I have a more structured system - something vaguely like the layout of a 2600 - although at the moment I have a subset in the living room which I use - 3 cases (2 for audio and 1 for video) - I may shift this round soon
currently I'm at 8 cases approx 1800hp - with maybe 300hp free spread throughout - some of which is diy backlog (which I should really get round to)
but saying that I know of lots of people who set up each case as an individual instrument...
basically what works for you works for you...
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
finally fill my case last fall, really loving the freedom and capabilities of this beast...of course its not perfect but fine for the moment...how do think about a second case guys...do you build it around a full system on its own or you can add missing stuff random???
The idea behind this rack is to build a new performance techno rig that I can use as a practice instrument (and for fun). I want to dig into sound design and so use a sampler such as the Erika Sample Drum a central piece of the system. There is no plan to bring a DAW into the picture.
Some notable inspirations are Julia Bondar's standalone racks (without the heavy use of Endorphin.es modules) and some of Jeremy Blake's (aka Red Means Recording) live performance rigs.
Case
I already have a Mantis case, with which I am very satisfied!
Modules
On the top row, there are two VCO sound sources (Plaits, C&P), two filters (Forbidden Planet, QPAS), and an wavefolder. Following that is a straightforward way to add a drum track, with two Pico Drum2. Next is the Sample Drum that I'll use with both externally created samples and recordings. The A-138s mixer is there to create a stereo sound path out of the multiple sources. That can then be fed into one of the stereo effects modules, such as the FX Aid and Beads.
Bottom row is where I'm really unsure about what works well. It starts with Shuttle Control being driven by the BSP. Pamela, Batumi, Maths, and Zadar generate all the necessary triggers, LFOs, and some envelopes. Veils is the main VCA. I'm still figuring out the role of Ornament & Crime, but so far I appreciate its versatility. Shades can be used to adjust gain or CV if necessary. Finally, Prism and Viol Ruina bring some more sound manipulation. The last WMD MSCL provides compression.
Half of the modules come from a previous rack (in a tiny Cre8audio NiftyCASE), which still seem suited for this new rack:
- Mutable Plaits
- Mutable Beads
- Mutable Veils
- Mutable Shades
- Winterbloom Castor & Pollux
- ALM Pamela's NEW Workout
- Make Noise QPAS
- Tip Top Forbidden Planet
- Erika Pico Drum2 (2x)
- Doepfer A-138s
- After Later uO_C
Sequencing
I'll be doing most of the sequencing of the melodic parts and percussion on a BeatStep Pro. Although I don't plan to travel with the case, it seems more ergonomic to dispatch the signals from a MIDI-CV module such as the Shuttle Control, than to route cables from the back of the BSP.
Output and Mixing
The audio outputs are all going to be sent to a Mackie 1202 mixer. I'm concerned that it could be difficult to quickly stage or adjust the gain of the some sound paths, so I included a Mutable Shades to perform simple attenuation if needed.
A probabilistic pattern skipper/generator eurorack kit from CuteLab
A pretty simple build, though you do have to be careful around the surface mount components that come pre-installed to not heat and nudge them aside.
Useful unit when you’re done. Scope traces really show you what’s going on
Lugia : Hey thanks for the reply!!
I’ve been touring w a friend for 4 years using a FX16II and we just use the fx for a bit of reverb, enough for our needs. We bought the EFX8 as a more compact mixer we can travel with (the FX16II already got stuck at the airport ..)
I know there are some better reverbs out there that I would love to use but its already a pain to carry so much stuff (mixer / 4 drum machines and synths each / outboard delay and two outboard compressors ..) so the EFX8 allows us to gain a bit of space. There is an aux track we can use on the efx8 tho!! (For delay or comp). In the studio im using a Zoia and Boss SX700 but i will check into the SPX90 😃
Old school Yamaha gear rocks!
As an external mixer I will have a soundcraft EFX8 and a Mackie 1202 (sub mixer). Also a Delay, a stereo filter and one outboard compressor.
+1 on Soundcraft, -1 on the EFX series.
Save yourself some money and get the EPM6. Same mixer, no internal FX. Then hop over to Reverb and/or eBay and grab some rack hardware...since the EPM6 has a typical small-mixer mono-send/stereo-return setup, devices such as the venerable Yamaha SPX90 will work very nicely in that situation, and give you a lot more FX capability than a little onboard FX chip.
I’m hearing your advice on Maths as a lot of people tell it’s one of the best! Do you think it can adapt well in this setup ?
I don't even have to look, since Maths is perhaps one of the finest modulation sources devised. It works in ANY setup, as long as you've got space for its 20 hp.
Even people who grumble about Maths eventually wind up with one. No lie.
Absolutely, yes. O'scopes can handle a couple of hundred volts, depending on the model.
I'm really unclear on if I can run a patch cable directly from one of my modules into this device. I'm also not sure if this oscilloscope works with DC signals. It says the multimeter is DC, but nothing about the oscilloscope.
Because it's assumed that you know that the scope handles both DC and AC.
Tangentially: I have no multimeter and I'm thinking that would be useful for testing hardware for issues, recalibrations, and building DIY modules. But I see I can get a dedicated multimeter for a tenth the price.
And you're absolutely right...a multimeter IS more important than an oscilloscope. The only practical uses I see for a scope is for checking waveform purity, working on a module, and hunting noise in signals, plus they're quite indispensable for checking phasing when mixing. But a multimeter works on so much more that's germaine to electronic music...from troubleshooting the latest eBay find to precise CV settings, especially in harmonic additive methods that require exacting CV manipulation, to finding levels from experimental devices (like test gear!) that are appropriate for synth CVs or audio signals. Over on Hainbach's subreddit, one constantly-repeated point is that you NEED a multimeter if you're doing hardware-based electronic music. And that ain't no joke!
Hmmm...interesting module, that. It doesn't simply do trigger sequencing, but also has two channels of CV/gate under the sequencer. Doesn't look like the MIDI ports do anything beyond loading the sequencer, but I'll bet there's some sort of sneak function that might let you use them as a proper MIDI interface. It 100% syncs to the MIDI clock, though, according to their site. And while 16 hp might be a real chonk in smaller builds, it's probably the best "sequencer crammed into small module" I've seen a bit.
and yea i see miso has jumped in there. good module.
-- trigmusicnz
One of my picks, actually. I don't really see it as a "performable" module...rather, I look at it as a "modulation ganger" in addition to its other functions. For example, if you've got a single LFO being messed with via a MISO (or my other fave for tighter spaces, the Frap 321), you can change the LFO's rate and ALL derived signals will change in lockstep with that modulation source.
Instead of a "normal" VCF, use one that has an insert path...and then drop something like a delay or reverb into that. Doepfer's A-106-1 fits into 14 hp, leaving 4 hp for an effect to screw with the resonance path...HN's FX Aid could work, and there's several others that fit in that remaining space.
The 106-1, fyi, is actually a version of the MS-20's Sallen-Key filter pair...which is definitely is capable of some weird filter interactions. Plus, this idea is pretty cost-effective and fills the 18 hp hole.
-- Lugia
Hmmm....interesting...I already have FX Aid XL...but now I have to fill an 4HP hole ;)
Since I have this Youtube Channel kicking around now, I recon I might as well use it..
so here's a jam I recorded today ( little bit of mixing in PT, some verb some compression, if anyone cares about that..).
I'm far from experienced with purely electronic music, so I appreciate any Input on this.
Hope it's enjoyable.
ok planning on taking the semis out of the case in the future - you get a pass on this
maths can work well in all racks...
I wouldn't worry about filling the case all at once - personally I think a single voice - vco, filter, modulation source (possibly maths) & a decent vca (quad cascading) plus a way to play & a way to listen is a good start, then add a few utilities and then think about more voices is a better way to go
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
JimHowell1970 :
Thanks for your reply! Well it’s not a proper system of course. I already own the Swarm and I want a DFAM and Dysmetria so I can use them out of the rack later and gain space for other stuff (switches, filters, modulations etc).
I just want a full functional case where I can start learning eurorack, write music and get ideas on the next modules.
As a sequencer I will be probably be using the Oxi One connected with the Oxi Pipe (top left) of the rack.
As an external mixer I will have a soundcraft EFX8 and a Mackie 1202 (sub mixer). Also a Delay, a stereo filter and one outboard compressor.
I’m hearing your advice on Maths as a lot of people tell it’s one of the best! Do you think it can adapt well in this setup ?
I need to dig more into utility modules and their use cases too.
well it's not really a modular synth is it? it's a collection of semis in a case with a few modules to bulk it out... as a modular synth it's shit...
at least one of the semis (probably more) have their own cases and power supply - use these otherwise you are increasing the cost of them by 10-20% and taking up rack space for actual modules
the other disadvantage of these is that you are not levering the advantages of modular - use this filter with this oscillator one patch and the next use a different filter with that oscillator.. etc etc
how are you going to sequence? use the mom? ok well there may be issues there iirc mom uses slightly different pitch scaling - so you'd need something to translate - or the octatrack? does it have cv outputs, idk... oxi one? no need for the buffered mult (buffers are generally only needed for pitch)
how are you mixing your external synths - I would not bother with an eoc modular mixer in this case... I would use the external mixer - which you might need to upgrade - but it will be less expensive...
falistri - urgh - imo - bad layout etc - get a maths instead, better learning documentation is available for it - see the 'maths illustrated manual' as well as the plethora of videos on you tube
on top of this, not enough utilities, not enough modulation... see my signature for hints on how to create racks that give the most versatility for the least cash...
1u - I cannot convey how wasteful I think it is (not necessarily a popular ideology) - in terms of cases they cost the same as 3u (or so close as to be irrelevant) and an extra 2u takes up about 3" and means you can fit way more functionality in the case - if I was given the choice of an intellijel 7u case or 2 mantises, I'd always take the mantises...
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
I’m planning to build my first euro rack case.
Been playing techno live with a friend for some years already and looking into a fun and compact modular setup for a solo liveset.
I will use a SR909, a octatrack, a 303, some effect pedals, and a intellijel 7u case. Maybe I’ll also have my Oxi One with me.
Could someone give me any advices on this setup? I lack 1U modules. Probably a mini patchbay + delay + headphones out.
Also, the Vortices mixer is too large to fit top right.. Do you know any mixer I could use instead ? I was thinking of adding a Qu Bit Data Bender instead + small mixer.
I’ve also decided to add a Frap Tooks Falistri as a learning tool (slightly smaller than Maths) but not quite sure of how I will use it yet.
Thanks for your time 🙏 I’m a eurorack noob don’t hesitate to tell me if you think about something useful.
Can this be done with the Doepfer A-138o? I have only used it as an aux for modules in the past.
-- isolatediguana
I don't know if the A-138o (with the A-138p) has sufficient gain for external return. Doepfer's documentation is not very clear on this point. I suspect something like the A-119 Ext. In is needed.
I just ordered a Versio as well (Melotus, but I plan to flash Desmodus and Electus to try them out) but for more intrusive or modulated effects. If I want a quality blackhole or shimmer, I will still go to an external pedal.
-- plragde
i can tell you now its not got enough gain to do this. i had this setup, doepfer a138 p & o, with alm busy circuits external guitar pedal interface @ 4hp - SBG. that did the trick.
I sent the endorphines back for a few reasons (quality/LR balance issue/loss of signal), and I really like my FXaids but I recently have added the Timiszoara and I must admit there are a wonderful set of very cool algos, and the "classic" ones sound great too!
Hey fam, I come to you all to know your thoughts about this one sequencer ? I should get it soon or sooner to give it a bit of space on the channel, but I am very curious of what you think bout it.
