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Thanks for the replies. The idea of the rig is to be easily able to jam out and loop to some extent, be a great synth on its own, and a great groove box with some audio processing/coloring in the future. I dont think im into making "generative" patches but rather using Plaits more as a keyboard synth and being able to sound shape it and evolve it on demand (as opposed to programming a geerative patch that plays itself).

I mainly want to figure out how to make Plaits, and the Sample Drum "sing" better, or utilize them better, modulation wise. The disting is there solely for its microtonal quantizer because I make middle eastern music.

EDITED Jan 3rd, 07:22

a double shot of tequila please

What is the “ci” input and “co” output?

I assume that li/lo is low pass, hi/ho is high pass, and ai/ao is all pass.

id definitley hang onto pams until you run out of space an then decide if you really dislike it that much. i have two new and a pro. ive had to talk myself out of buying more when i see a good deal on one. they are so versatile. if nothing else just set them all to random and use them as random cv theough the case.

what are tou trying to donwith your rack? are you doing generative stuff or are tou trying to control it with a keyboard or midi?

What are you trying to achieve that you can't do now? What kind of music are you making?

Hi guys, I did what you all say not to do, and started out last year with an Intellijel Palette 62hp. I have outgrown it in terms of space and have been having trouble getting my setup down right. I just ordered a 6u Rackbrute today, and in this rack I've put in all the modules I own with the exception of the couple 1U modules I have.

I would love for someone to provide me with some feedback on how to make this case come alive and have everything work together.

I really dislike Pams New Workout and Rings, so I will probably get rid of those. Please let me know what I could use to make this flow and modulate better. Logic modules? VCA's? Effects? I'm really stuck on what I need to get to complete this with the main voices being Plaits and Sample Drum.

Thanks!

(edit: the preview in this thread doesn't seem to reflect the modules I put on the rack, please click on the rack to see the actual modules that I own. The modules off of the rack are just ones I like or am looking forward to acquiring.)

EDITED Jan 2nd, 23:03

Making silly joke entries on Modulargrid probably isn't the best way to go after Behringer.

true, but it is amusing - and stopping it, as opposed to calming it down, as happened, would be censorship - so really bad!!!

Informing people that they're casually antisemitic liars who partially fund their douchiness by trying to undercut and drown out beloved manufacturers/designers, however, is not a bad thing.

no, it's definitely a good thing!!!

I've owned their stuff and not all their products (or even all their ripoffs) are bad.

there are always exceptions to rules

However, once people are told what Behringer is, they cannot claim not to support them by giving them their money - you choose something, you choose the consequences if you're informed on them. "Looking down on them" is just a bad faith interpretation of holding someone accountable for their actions, which isn't even an inherently exclusionary act.

exactly

But goofy stuff just undermines the point.

Maybe, a little bit, but it is funny - and you could see it from the other side - sometimes we can get the message across by poking fun at it - tbh my involvement in the digital graffiti started and stopped at laughing very loudly - particularly at 'abacuntus'!

The throttling of market participation by big douche companies has become so traditional by now that there are people here denouncing criticism of these practices because others partake in them as well. As long as those people and the people they're talking to can trick themselves into feeling reasonable, the problem isn't going anywhere.
-- Zacksname

ah yes back to the "occlusion of cognitive dissonance"...

One thing I've found that works well is multing the envelope that opens the vca for the kick, sending it to, say, Maths ch. 2, attenuverting it ( 9 oclock dial position), taking the INV out to the vca for the basslines, to get a nice "ducking" effect.

Yes, I've done it with a basic Intelligel Quadratt as well. Works very well. Though it's worth experimenting with the envelope and whether the VCA is linear/exponential to see what the effect is. I use a compressor in my iPad for sidechaining which also gives plenty of possibilities. I like the witch house exaggerated ducking, which is hard to achieve by using the original kick envelope.

For me, there's a difference between modular synths and guitars in the same way that there's a difference between experimental and pop music. Or an outside comparison - go and chess. The former is small and the latter is big. That causes the communities of the former to be rather close-knit everybody knows one another kind of places whereas the latter are rather anonymous. So when a bully enters, the latter will shrug and go on minding their business. Whereas the former will close ranks and protest. There's more at stake than pure business. When Behringer clones current products of existing companies, they're threatening the livelihoods of well respected members of the community and, in many cases, friends.

So while I prefer having correct information on what a module does in the module's page, I consider it to be essential information as well when it's a rip-off.

I couldn't fk with this module. Extreme menu diving + time gated navigation is anti-eurorack IMO.

Making silly joke entries on Modulargrid probably isn't the best way to go after Behringer. It's not evil, but meh. Informing people that they're casually antisemitic liars who partially fund their douchiness by trying to undercut and drown out beloved manufacturers/designers, however, is not a bad thing. I've owned their stuff and not all their products (or even all their ripoffs) are bad. However, once people are told what Behringer is, they cannot claim not to support them by giving them their money - you choose something, you choose the consequences if you're informed on them. "Looking down on them" is just a bad faith interpretation of holding someone accountable for their actions, which isn't even an inherently exclusionary act. But goofy stuff just undermines the point. The throttling of market participation by big douche companies has become so traditional by now that there are people here denouncing criticism of these practices because others partake in them as well. As long as those people and the people they're talking to can trick themselves into feeling reasonable, the problem isn't going anywhere.

I've been playing around with various kick setups since this thread.

One thing I've found that works well is multing the envelope that opens the vca for the kick, sending it to, say, Maths ch. 2, attenuverting it ( 9 oclock dial position), taking the INV out to the vca for the basslines, to get a nice "ducking" effect.

Kick remains crisp in the mix, as competing bass frequencies are rolled off.

OP could achieve same with A-140 (I believe) as it has an inverse output, correct?

All versions of Happy Nerding - FX Aid seems to be capable as well:

Further Expert Sleepers - Disting MK4 has also a DJ-Filter algorithm:

the example of snap-on being the inventor of ratcheting socket wrenches is totally incorrect - the patent was filed over 50 years before snap-on was founded... the other companies are NOT copying snap-on! - if you don't believe me go to wikipedia and look at the pages for snap-on and socket wrench!! the 1864 patent is clearly mentioned on the socket wrench page and no mention of a patent is cited on the snap-on (founded 1920) page - the snap-on marketing slogan is just that - marketing! what snap-on may (or may not) have innovated with is their sales method...

beds, for example, have been around for thousands of years - the earliest known mattress is 77000 years old, bookcases have almost definitely been around since the earliest book (wikipedia says roughly 1500 years) and the concept of shelves in an open box, as a piece of furniture probably pre-date that by a long way... tables are at least 4500 years (again wikipedia)... the earliest shirt 5000 years (wikipedia) etc etc

these things are generic... but someone at some time (probably before any of these dates) must have invented them.... as I said, if you go back far enough!

behringer has been around for just over 35 years - and in that time have really only done one thing - copy other people's work - and been sued for it repeatedly - sometimes successfully, sometimes not... and for most of that time they've also had a reputation for producing some of the worst quality products in music tech - I've definitely known to, if at all possible, buy something else for at least 20 years... they've used intimidation (SLAPP lawsuits) to prevent criticism... etc etc

please show me the innovations they have made?

even Ikea and Amazon have made "innovations" - even if in at least some cases their business practices may be (extremely) questionable (especially Amazon - don't know about Ikea)

There's loads of music gear which is made in questionable overseas factories based on someone else's earlier design

but not so much in modular - until the b-company started doing it...

can we really look down on someone who sometimes purchases Behringer modules?

No and we shouldn't and I've never advocated this... I might have said that some people will - the same as some people will potentially look down on others for a myriad of reasons... but mostly what I see & comment on are newbie racks that haven't been bought yet & what I will always do in that case, is point them towards doing a bit of research and making up their own minds as to whether they want to encourage such behaviour by buying from them and pointing them towards alternatives that are similarly priced, if maybe a tiny bit more expensive - often similar functionality can be had from for, instance Doepfer, for only a few quid more!!! If their conscience says "I don't care" or their wallet says "I can't afford a conscience" then so be it... that's their problem not mine

& I might question a rack full of instro, or similar, powered by a b-compny power supply, or mixed by a b-company mixer (or quad vca) - you've a garage full of ferraris, why the lada?

Think about how many musicians got their start playing cheapo catalog-grade or low-end foreign imported guitars, horns, amps, drum kits, etc, made with rubbish materials and shoddy workmanship but designed to look just like the big names.

you're absolutely right here - and as I've stated - to some extent I think the b-company do a good job - specifically when it comes to building copies of instruments and modules that are out of production - and not going to be put into production again by the originators - even the 2600's - Korg kind of got what they deserved for that (producing way fewer than the demand for them, even at the much higher price) - the socialisation of electronic instruments - yay - big round of applause!!! but only for that - and only when it's done with some thought - big boos and thumbs down for v triggers

The companies behind those instruments didn't give a crap about traditional lutherie methods, the future serviceability of their products, or the intellectual property of those whose designs they ripped off. The half-broke teenagers who bought them probably didn't care about that either, they were just happy to get an instrument to play, and that's what set them on the path to become guitar gods later in life.

again you're comparing "mass market" to "niche market", "mass produced" to "artisanal"

& really how many 1/2 broke teenagers are actually buying modular synths - not many I suspect - if they're making electronic music then they're mostly using phones and laptops - and not hardware - especially if they had the phone/laptop bought for them as a significant number of teenagers will have had done...

and even if that's not the case then - eating ramen or cutting out starbucks or whatever they're able to do to get the money together to buy instruments isn't that much of a hardship - a lot of us did this in order to afford the instruments we own - & often less is more

and most of the teenagers that I know, admittedly very few, would rather buy used clothes than from companies utilising sweat shops, for example... they're much more likely to be green, "woke", anti-worker exploitation and anti-capitalist than most of us of the older generations were at their age, definitely more so than I was at their age - thankfully!! so maybe a little more hardship on their part, or a few less modules this month/year (as that's to some extent what we're really talking about - delayed instead of instant gratification)

given this: if you've a budget of 1000(€/£/$) you can choose between a dozen b-company modules or maybe 5 or 6 from other manufacturers - the difference being that the 5 or 6 have been built by people who've been paid properly & to a large extent care about the products and will repair them if at all possible and needed and not a faceless corporation that "exploits it's workers", doesn't really care about the products, throws failed items into landfill instead of repairing and puts money into the pockets of it's bigotted, millionaire owners - & yes I know b-company donates synths to education and claims to not make a profit (but I suspect that's after seriously big pay cheques to Uli & the other directors) - then most of those kids would prefer the fewer modules option, at least as far as I can tell

we're not talking about the same differences in price that were there when a lot of us were kids - when a knock of strat copy was 1/10th the price of a real one - Kraftwerk's 1st moog cost them the same amount of money as their, at the time brand new, Volkswagen Beetle (what's that 35k, these days?) - we're only talking 3 * the price, & probably less than that used, the equivalent of 40 starbucks coffees, or less, not 6 months or more of eating only ramen or beans on toast

even if we're talking only about modular - which to a large extent even a behringer modular is a luxury and non-essential item - there is no need for a batumi, or a maths, or a quad vca - or a clone of any of those modules - in order to build a workable modular synth - there's Doepfer (who even make a quad lfo that's less expensive, if less featured than the four play - at least according to the stated prices here) and Ladik and takaab and DIY modulues from any number of manufacturers that are in a similar ballpark cost...

BUT that's not how this thread started (but I hope this is how it ends):

it started with @drager complaining about some humourous mischief - that he tried to pass of as misinformation:

so @drager: please, stop being such a miserable twat, ffs - it's just a bit of well aimed (and possibly well meant) digital graffiti - so get a sense of humour and stop wanting to censor and subjugate others' freedom of speech - because that's what you seem to want & if you can't laugh at "abacuntus" - then what can you laugh at???

or go to another site for less amusing, censored (boo) and probably less informative information on b-company products: modwiggler - where they censoriously remove all the anti-b-company from any thread on b-company products and put them in a single (& I paraphrase for both humour and clarity) "B-company - their shitty ethics and why you shouldn't buy from these bullying, bigotted arseholes" thread - it's in the hundreds of pages - or the b-company forum - which is censored: all negative comments deleted - so about as informative and useful as a black plastic bag over your head on a safari - which may cater to you better than here...

NB no offence intended or given (as it can't be, in English) - but if you take it, well, good (or bad) for you!!!

almost everything is a knock off if you go back far enough or stretch the point far enough... the house you live in, the car you drive, the clothes you wear, the computer you surf the internet with, the tv you watch, the radio you listen to etc etc - but these things are so ubiquitous and necessary to a greater or lesser extent - so again totally different category, both, sort of, fast moving consumer goods - or at least not niche - with much much bigger markets & are much more 'generic'

That was the point I was trying to make. Ripoffs are everywhere, so it's curious why this particular example gets so much attention. In the Four Play topic FATSO asked whether we look at a Behringer module and think "hey, that looks like a so-and-so!". The answer for me is yes--their modules are often quite clearly copies of others. But that's not special or unique; I see kind of thing everywhere. A Harbor Freight Icon ratchet is a much closer knockoff of a Snap-On than a Behringer Abacus is a knockoff of a Maths, they even went so far as to copy the visual styling, not just the workings inside. Snap-On may not be a mom-and-pop operation, but there are far larger companies copying them, they sell a fraction of the volume that big box store brands do. The aforementioned Harbor Freight Icon brand is an example of just one of countless Behringers in the tool world knocking off the Make Noises. I could list many, many, more but these posts are getting long enough as it is. And on it goes for nearly everything: Shoes. Food. Apps/games. Household appliances. Electronics. Toys. There's loads of music gear which is made in questionable overseas factories based on someone else's earlier design from guitars to keyboard stands. So it makes me wonder if this standard is applied to everything, or if it's only modules that get this kind of scrutiny? Jim wrote that examples like tools or household goods are a "totally different category", but I am not sure I agree. Going back to the beginning of the post:

but what I'm usually saying is this - it's up to you - but really do you want to give your money to known bigots? do you actually want to put your money towards innovation or towards corporate greed?

I can absolutely get behind that principle, but why shouldn't it apply beyond Modules? Why does the size of the market matter here? There's nothing specific to music or modular or niche markets about that principle; it is universal. If we should avoid giving our money to corporations peddling inferior modules based on copying someone else's ideas shouldn't we be doing the same when we buy, say, socks or a bookshelf? If we admit that we must, sometimes, stray from those ideals out of financial reality why can that not apply to Modules too? If we aspire to that principle yet we sometimes shop at Amazon, Ikea, or Wal-Mart then can we really look down on someone who sometimes purchases Behringer modules?

That said, I don't to come across as complaining--I appreciate being able to read all the information about a module or modular company, this kind of thing included. I already wanted to avoid Behringer because of the quality issues I previously experienced and discussed in the other topic. Learning they are corporate assholes on top of that was good to know and further cements my position to avoid purchasing from them. But I am lucky enough that I can afford to purchase other modules, and not everybody is in that position. I can also afford to be picky about the tools I own--but there was a time, much earlier in my career, when all I could afford was knockoffs. I don't think music is any different. Think about how many musicians got their start playing cheapo catalog-grade or low-end foreign imported guitars, horns, amps, drum kits, etc, made with rubbish materials and shoddy workmanship but designed to look just like the big names. The companies behind those instruments didn't give a crap about traditional lutherie methods, the future serviceability of their products, or the intellectual property of those whose designs they ripped off. The half-broke teenagers who bought them probably didn't care about that either, they were just happy to get an instrument to play, and that's what set them on the path to become guitar gods later in life.

Thank you! Wishing all a joyful 2024. I have not bought any new modules in over a year! Been focused on mastering and producing music from my modular setup.

some of the doepfer filter modules do this in 8hp - wasp, sem etc
-- JimHowell1970

I have 2 wasp filters but the LP/HP mix knob is additional to the cutoff knob which requires to use both hands in some situations.
unfortuantely the unfiltered signal of the cutoff is on the opposite position for HP/LP (like most filters i have in my rack).
thx anyway!!

...Usually called "DJ" filters...
-- farkas

thank you!

Bit of #Jamuary / Patch from Sctatch on the Pluck & Bell

Usually called "DJ" filters. Erica Synths makes one:
https://www.modulargrid.net/e/erica-synths-black-dj-vcf

some of the doepfer filter modules do this in 8hp - wasp, sem etc

https://www.modulargrid.net/e/bastl-instruments-ikarie

Check: Bastl Ikarie
8 HP - LP/HP Filter with Stereo VCA
+ Many features in just 8 hp

Its not orginal a DJ-filter but you can do the same + far more with it

Maybe this could suit you

I like it very much

EDITED Jan 1st, 15:37

Hi
Does anyone know (preferably small) modules that acts as LP and HP filter with a single frequency knob?
noon: unfiltered
CCW: LP cutoff
CW: HP cutoff

Like endorphin.es squawk dirty to me in this mode:

or the endorphin.es - Ghost

Does this type of filter-combo has a special name?
Thank you in advance for any suggestions!

EDITED Jan 1st, 13:16

Happy New Year!!!!!

May your 2024 be Modular and bright ;-)
I probably won't have time to do much #Jamuary but its a great way to try new things doing a-patch-a-day throughout January.

Poor argumentation.

Let's take an unoffical poll: how many of us saw what ever module B had released and immediately upon seeing it thought, "Hang on?! That looks like...", then wondered here to have a closer look and get confirmation?

yeah that's what happens to me...

Of course there are very few new concepts, mostly just merging differnt combos of current building blocks, with specific UX/UI. But the fact that they haven't even tried to do anything different, layout, labels...It feels at the least provocative, if not an outright middle finger.
-- FATSO

the clones of in production modules aren't just a middle finger... they're outright corporate bullying - b-company knows they won't be sued by Arturia or Make Noise or Intellijel or Xaoc - as any such action will end up bankrupting them & probably before it gets to court...

This is repulsive just blatant theft of Intellijel intellectual property. If I saw this module in an artist's rack I'd never buy another album from that artist. Art means nothing without ethics.

-- Sedalus

Art has nothing to do with money or politics.

-- AEROCATONE

in a perfect world... we can but dream!

A random pattern generator with a number of options, also include a classic clock divider. Interestingly has no (zero) control or CV input outside of the clock trigger, wonder why?
Very easy to assemble, and not too few parts, and not too many parts, for a first or second kit.
Works exactly as described, and an interesting unit to add some random rhythm or arpeggiation to your tunes. Probably would be fun to mess with live, too.
Build

What else do you think pairs well with the Pluck?

anything that can be patched after any other sound source - filters, vcas, delays, reverbs, other resonators etc etc

Ah, Jim, I'm not surprised you showed up here. You are, after all, one of the most vocal and prominent users in the various threads where Behringer is discussed.

Maybe I am, I don't know - I don't pay that much attention, at least to statistics... but what I'm usually saying is this - it's up to you - but really do you want to give your money to known bigots? do you actually want to put your money towards innovation or towards corporate greed? do you want to buy a product that if it fails will be repaired or just replaced and the failed module end up in landfill?

remember: the misdeeds of the owners of music tech companies are not reported in the mass media - unlike, say, those of movie or rock stars... the masses don't know about them - chances are quite high that a newbie doesn't know anything about the b-company or Synthrotek - or a few other companies in the past... they just see them as another eurorack manufacturer, albeit on the cheaper end of the scale & which they may see as a good or a bad thing...

and will some people "judge you" for your choices relating to these questions? - yes of course they will - as you are for my pointing out of these facts in order to inform people so that they can make informed choices for themselves - as you will be to some extent for everything, from your car, to the clothes you wear, to how your hair is cut, to your accent etc - but how much you care about that and how you deal with it is your issue

see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil - begets evil, does it not!

I've been around long enough to know that often buying the cheapest option means buying again and again, whilst buying a more expensive (and robust) item can mean that the item is repaired and therefore lasts longer... and ends up cheaper in the long run...

And, more importantly, at least to me is that people have the right to choose where their money goes... I, personally, want as little of my money as possible going into the hands of bigots (amongst others that I won't go into here - as it strays towards both politics and religion)

if the b-company stuck to original designs, cloning out of production synths (with a little extra thought put in - v triggers ffs!!) and modules, improved their quality slightly (nuts on jacks for instance) and minded what Uli says publicly etc - then I wouldn't have a problem with them at all, in fact I'd be singing their praises... as it is though they are effectively bullies & I've never liked those...

I see you cherry-picked the low hanging fruit and chose to focus on the exaggeration part of my comment;

then don't leave low hanging fruit or exaggerate - I try my best not to...

I will admit that it is possible or even probable that there are certain relative newcomers to the world of music gear who have not yet stumbled upon any of the countless discussions about Behringer.

It's an absolute certainty - I have seen it many, many times!

My apologies, I understand that in this context, I should be more careful of my semantics and avoid any such tools as exaggeration, extrapolation or hyperbole as that will quickly be used in an attempt to invalidate the rest of my points.

Indeed - it's a shame you didn't follow your own advice for the rest of your post... especially the following paragraph!!

Clearly, some people believe that it's so important to make certain that all potential users or purchasers are "informed" that they continue to beat the dead Behringer hate horse at every opportunity - nay, not just beating, grinding said horse to powder in which they revel like bathing chinchillas. Meanwhile, the occlusion of cognitive dissonance continues.

hyperbole... and showing off your vocabulary... Keep it simple, stupid - this is an international forum and not everyone will understand what you are saying!! again - the b-company are effectively bullying smaller companies by copying their products - the small companies can't afford to defend themselves in court - the b-company would bankrupt them without a thought... so the only way to stand up to them is to point people in other directions - and for good reason - and sometimes it'll be succesful and other times it won't...

as for "the occlusion of cognitive dissonance" - this is endemic and we are all to a certain extent guilty of it, including you (& me) - because all that really means is that we choose to see and believe what we want to see and believe because it's convenient - not necessarily because we are right - remember: no one thinks they are evil - but at least some of us are!

Take, for example, a comment in the thread about Four Play: "If I saw this module in an artist's rack I'd never buy another album from that artist. Art means nothing without ethics." Does this person hold these values across the board? Do users who make such comments also refuse to own any other product (music related or otherwise) made by companies who operate in the exact same way? If a painter uses cheap acrylic paint and pre-stretched canvases marketed under store brand in mega-corporate chain craft store known for importing mediocre quality products manufactured under dubious work conditions, shall we refuse to cast our gaze upon their works and shun them as lesser artists because they should be using expensive products crafted by small, local artisans?

well... that's definitely not a quote from me... and as such, I can't speak for that person... but there are issues here...

1 the provenance of the canvas/paint is much less obvious than that of the "offending" module - even if the artist posted their workspace in a similar way to the musician - the tubes of paint and canvases are less likely to be branded or be as distinctive... and therefore not so blatantly obvious

2 there's a big difference between passive and active consumption - the act of viewing a painting is more akin to listening to a piece of music on the radio or in a bar than it is to actually buying an album, whether it is digital or physical

3 most consumers of art (in whatever medium) are not aware of or interested in the tools/processes/time etc that are used to create the art... they only experience it as a delivered artwork - those of us that are aware have a right to be more discerning, if we choose to be... the only people who will take any stock of this are those who also practice in the same art form and often not then unless they are particularly interested in how a particular piece was made...

4 a lot of people would equate great artist with professional with making money above and beyond the absolute minimum needed to survive - at which point they can afford the nicer tools (and often write them off as business expenses) - I do think this is spurious though - I don't equate popular with good, necessarily, or conversely unpopular with bad - and of course there's no accounting for tastte (mine included) - I may be able to tell that it's well executed - Adele, for example - a reasonably proficient singer - but dreary, formulaic pap for the masses with absolutely no progression and no artistry- just good marketing... sell the same thing again and again - or photo-realistic painters - great draughtsmen, but again nothing to do with actual art...

I think the original point of this thread stands. Most of us aren't here because we want to be inundated with repetitive commentary about why this company or that is evil and should be avoided. Most of us are here because we want practical and accurate information about the functionality of modules we own or are considering. Rather than focus on the debate over how many people are aware vs unaware of the Behringer controversies, why not actually discuss the more relevant points here?

No the original point does not stand at all - it is tantamount to wanting censorship and the subjugation of freedom of speeach... and even worse - the maintaining of your 'freedom of speech' over mine (& others!)... it's like turning a blind eye to poverty, whilst sipping champagne

It's cherry picking what you want others to hear/not hear based upon your world view....

or a review site that only allows positive reviews... despite the fact that some of the things being reviewed are utter crap or have incredibly poor customer service and deserve to be called out as a warning to others...

you can't have your freedom of speech, or expect to have someone defend it, without extending the same courtesy to everyone else, and defending that right - no matter whether you agree with them or not... it's the basic underlying principle of freedom (of speech) - it's a double edged sword - in order for you to have yours, I must have mine too...

otherwise you end up with Farenheit 451 or The Handmaid's Tale being a reality - oh wait a minute we already have to a lesser extent

now in this case there are places where you can have exactly what you want - Modwiggler is an excellent forum for modular synthesis (despite, in my opinion their censorious sidelining of all criticism of the b-company into a singular thread - which I intenesly dislike, but understand due to Uli having threatened to sue gearspace & it's members) - or the b-company forum (where all criticism is deleted) - it's your choice

Another example comes from the Abacus thread: "If you care about the euro community avoid this." Why?

because some of us (hopefully a majority - or at least a substantial minority) would like small companies that are more likely to innovate survive long enough to do so... the chances of the b-company coming up with anything musically (or not, for that matter) innovative are near 0

Maybe some of us could give a rat's tail about the stuck up elitism of the so-called "community" which, while incredibly helpful users are plentiful, seems to be dominated largely by jerks who would snub new users who are dipping their toes into the modular waters with low-investment, low-risk modules that make it easy to get started without spending years researching what modules they need and saving up thousands of dollars.

I've never snubbed new users & I'm definitely not elitist - far from it - but I do really advise at least some research - including the owners of the companies they are buying from & I definitely have pointed new users in other directions - used doepfer modules for instance are not that much more expensive than b-company products and are much easier to resell, I would imagine - therefore being lower risk than even b-company

I also don't recommend the nifty bundle - too small a case, with poorly implemented features and modules that haven't got a particularly good reputation, which may be outgrown almost immediately and difficult to resell - possibly even difficult to give away...

nor do I recommend intellijel cases - unless the buyer has done enough research and some forward thinking and doesn't mind being tied into buying specific modules, which may or may not be suitable 6 months down the line or be completely unnecessary - midi and output modules in particular... although these days there are other manufacturers making alternatives

nor do I recommend Synthrotek modules or DIY kits - reportedly poor customer service & poor quality modules & an owner who made rape jokes on a public forum... and is unapologetic about it...

nor do I recommend a lot of (modules from) other brands - often due to them being overly expensive for what they are

mostly I recommend Doepfer (& full size mutable clones, now mutable is gone) or used modules and having a decent roster of utiltiies and learning to patch so that you don't need to buy, for example, a panner module or a crossfader - because for the 10% of the time you'll use it - you could have just patched it up yourself & then use the modules for something else when you don't need that functionality and I do recommend tiptop mantis cases - because they're the best bang for buck - taking into account manufacturer reputation/decent power supplu/ cost/ size... and befaco power excalibus power supplies - because they are quiet and inexpensive and DIYable...

but all these are, are my opinions, suggestions and recommendations... people can take heed or not, as they choose... I'm not forcing anyone to follow them at all! nor am I judging people for their choices... nor am I forcing anyone to read them or intending to offend anyone... remember: in the English language one cannot give offence, only take it!

way before the b-company entered the eurorack & semi-modular market - there were (& still are) many budget/inexpensive options - DIY, doepfer, ladik, takaab etc but they are tiny companies (doepfer is 4 people!!!) and they have miniscule marketing budgets, so do not have adverts in the wider synthesizer or music tech press & are not run by bigots (or at least not by ones who have publicly shown themselves to be so)... they are run by enthusiasts, who care deeply about what they are doing and understand not only the market but also the actual users of their modules - as they are themselves users of their (& others) products.... ie people in the industry who deserve to be supported by us - the community - buying their modules or kits or pcb/panel sets

and yes a lot of these modules are derivations of publically available circuits, but often with some embellishments & of course there are all the clones of mutable instruments modules, sometimes with useful embelishments, often not - made from publically available open-source circuit diagrams and code - an unintended side-effect of open sourcing... but they're not overtly obvious copies of in-production modules...

as for me: a good 1/2 of my modules (& racks & power supplies for that matter) are DIY and a sizeable proportion of the rest are doepfer - a relatively inexpensive and low risk way of getting what I want...

learning to solder will take you a couple of hours... and give the builder and user of these modules much more lasting satisfaction than buying similarly priced (usually inexpensive) modules

The guitar market has plenty of high end boutique instruments, amps and effects, but they wouldn't sell very well if there was no market because we shunned anybody who bought a low cost entry level guitar and amp made by a large predatory company with Chinese labor to learn on.

there's a huge difference in market size between, for example, guitars and modular synthesizers & there always has been & quite possibly always will be... the comparison is disingenious.... and that does at least to some extent need to be taken into account - the companies (mostly Fender and Gibson and Rickenbacker) who had their instruments copied, were by the time the copying took place, big enough to actually defend their copyrights/patents (& not always successfully - hence the proliferation of strat and les paul alikes) and the companies that were making the copies were comparatively small - this is not the case with modular synthesizer manufacturers, it's the exact opposite - especially against relatively big corporations in a legal climate where often the more expensive lawyer / more money to defend their POV wins... none of the eurorack companies have the money to get into this fight with the b-company - so just have to take it on the chin and hope that enough of us actually buy their products as opposed to the knock offs so that they can continue to make a living

guitars are in a lot of ways the mass produced fast moving consumer goods of musical instruments and have been for years - the companies who make these instruments managed to get big enough before the cloning started that they could (just about) survive - both Gibson and Fender have almost gone bankrupt at least a few times... and in some part stop the smaller companies

with modular & specifically the b-company in regards to the currently in-production modules they are cloning - this is the opposite - it's a large rich corporation - potentially making higher returns on investment, due to economies of scale and actually having the ability to make their own components, and reduced labour costs and probably reduced costs of doing business, taking the work of a small company and profiteering from it - and those small companies are definintely not making huge profits (the owners may be "comfortable", but they're not rich) - and if you don't believe me go and find on youtube Tom Erbe's video on the costs of developing and manufacturing modules and then find Tony Rolando's (Make Noise founder) correction - believe me, it's "bad enough" when you just take into consideration Tom's view point, before Tony wades in with "and you forgot this, and this, and this"...

I think Replicant phrased it neatly, "Do you own a socket set? If it wasn't made by Snap-On, it's a knockoff....but I certainly can't fault the average person for buying a cheaper one.
How many of us have Ikea furniture instead of buying handmade from small designers?"

-m
-- mrcoffee883

almost everything is a knock off if you go back far enough or stretch the point far enough... the house you live in, the car you drive, the clothes you wear, the computer you surf the internet with, the tv you watch, the radio you listen to etc etc - but these things are so ubiquitous and necessary to a greater or lesser extent - so again totally different category, both, sort of, fast moving consumer goods - or at least not niche - with much much bigger markets & are much more 'generic'* - remember: all musical instruments are niche products - and much different markets - specifically with ikea: everyone needs furniture to some extent and you buy what you like within a subset of what you can afford - a bed or table is not a niche product within a niche within a niche

in the case of snap-on - like the guitar companies - it's large companies products being copied by small companies and the probability of the concept of a socket set being ruled so generic that the copyright/patent can't practically be enforced (see fender stratocaster, above) - and the originator has to rely on good customer service, reputation and marketing to charge a premium for their product - or more likely, me having just read the wikipedia articles for both snap-on and socket set, snap-on don't actually appear to have invented the socket set or patented the idea - and so the "if it wasn't made by snap-on it's a knock off" may just be an urban myth - almost definitely started and proliferated by snap-on as a marketing ruse! (this might not be the case - wikipedia is not the absolute last word - but it's usually good enough!)

& no I don't own a socket set... yes I do own some things from ikea - bookshelves, picture frames, a solid wooden table, a solid wooden stool - and definitely not an uncomfortable, poorly built sofa that is built to fall apart in a couple of years...

nor do I buy 'fast fashion' - I generally want my purchases to last and be repairable etc.. not just end up in landfill

if I had my choice in the matter - I'd much rather live in a world without money, where everyone is free to do as they like (as long as they didn't hurt others) and have whatever they wish for (can you tell I was raised on Star Trek?) and innovation happens for it's own sake and not the pursuit of money or power - unfortunately, that's not the case, at least not at the moment

What else do you think pairs well with the Pluck? What else have you used today would feel is shoes?
-- buzzsawddog

Try having several Plucks -- and a Bell, of course! -- receiving triggers and v/oct through the Mystic Circuits'
IDUM with Tree and Leaves. Lots of fun 8'). A twist of the IDUM nob and the variations are very pronounced.

Something I have done is use the Pluck (or other VCO) playing an arpeggio into the Clouds reverb then use a different sequence to play sections of the reverb chord wash. Do a google and search for 'Trance Gates' and find something like this

And this was my take on it

with 4 note polyphony, Pluck is also a useful source of chords: with Decay high and the output into a closed vca run 3 or 4 fast notes into it (trig/v-oct) and then open the vca with a short a/r envelope either alongside the last trigger (to keep a bit of the pluck sound) or shortly after (for a more classic synth stab) or maybe even a bit of both. 2hp Brst is a good partner module for this.
-- daveHFS

Amazing! I never really thought about that... But now you have me thinking. I just picked up a Mimetic Digitalis and I bet I could do something interesting along those lines. I now have an idea for today's jam session.

To be honest I have not paired with a VCA yet :). I just love the constant ring and morphing you get from the module.

with 4 note polyphony, Pluck is also a useful source of chords: with Decay high and the output into a closed vca run 3 or 4 fast notes into it (trig/v-oct) and then open the vca with a short a/r envelope either alongside the last trigger (to keep a bit of the pluck sound) or shortly after (for a more classic synth stab) or maybe even a bit of both. 2hp Brst is a good partner module for this.

Yeah small knobs big hands is an issue. I usually modulate the damp and decay so not much to do :)

I messed with the ring implementation on my disting ex a bit. it's interesting and ill have to go back and try again.

Yes! This is lovely! The 2HP pluck does indeed sound very very nice. But as WBB says, Rings is also a great option, and I'd guess a lot more playable given the size.

I have a V2, and it's great, but does need careful tweaking to get those sweet spots (do like those flute tones). I'd say trigger and drum are great as there are some lovely drum sounds available, but I'm seriously considering getting a V4 as it has more cv controls. As for the Veils clone - Veils for me ticks all the boxes for a VCA (I have 5 as you can never have enough :))

In almost all activities there are artisans and industrialists. Small structures must often distinguish themselves through quality and innovation. The larger structures work more easily in terms of volume and price. And it’s not really the same job, the same universe, the same values.

The more informed buyers or consumers are, the better. A site like ModularGrid can contribute to this, without making it a daily obsession either.

All this makes me want to read or create a good old thread about our reality which is music. Woohoo!

Happy New Year to everyone!

Fast and safe shipping with @JXOXO , higly recommanded seller!

Ah, Jim, I'm not surprised you showed up here. You are, after all, one of the most vocal and prominent users in the various threads where Behringer is discussed. I see you cherry-picked the low hanging fruit and chose to focus on the exaggeration part of my comment; I will admit that it is possible or even probable that there are certain relative newcomers to the world of music gear who have not yet stumbled upon any of the countless discussions about Behringer. My apologies, I understand that in this context, I should be more careful of my semantics and avoid any such tools as exaggeration, extrapolation or hyperbole as that will quickly be used in an attempt to invalidate the rest of my points.

Clearly, some people believe that it's so important to make certain that all potential users or purchasers are "informed" that they continue to beat the dead Behringer hate horse at every opportunity - nay, not just beating, grinding said horse to powder in which they revel like bathing chinchillas. Meanwhile, the occlusion of cognitive dissonance continues.

Take, for example, a comment in the thread about Four Play: "If I saw this module in an artist's rack I'd never buy another album from that artist. Art means nothing without ethics." Does this person hold these values across the board? Do users who make such comments also refuse to own any other product (music related or otherwise) made by companies who operate in the exact same way? If a painter uses cheap acrylic paint and pre-stretched canvases marketed under store brand in mega-corporate chain craft store known for importing mediocre quality products manufactured under dubious work conditions, shall we refuse to cast our gaze upon their works and shun them as lesser artists because they should be using expensive products crafted by small, local artisans?

I think the original point of this thread stands. Most of us aren't here because we want to be inundated with repetitive commentary about why this company or that is evil and should be avoided. Most of us are here because we want practical and accurate information about the functionality of modules we own or are considering. Rather than focus on the debate over how many people are aware vs unaware of the Behringer controversies, why not actually discuss the more relevant points here?

Another example comes from the Abacus thread: "If you care about the euro community avoid this." Why? Maybe some of us could give a rat's tail about the stuck up elitism of the so-called "community" which, while incredibly helpful users are plentiful, seems to be dominated largely by jerks who would snub new users who are dipping their toes into the modular waters with low-investment, low-risk modules that make it easy to get started without spending years researching what modules they need and saving up thousands of dollars. The guitar market has plenty of high end boutique instruments, amps and effects, but they wouldn't sell very well if there was no market because we shunned anybody who bought a low cost entry level guitar and amp made by a large predatory company with Chinese labor to learn on.

I think Replicant phrased it neatly, "Do you own a socket set? If it wasn't made by Snap-On, it's a knockoff....but I certainly can't fault the average person for buying a cheaper one. How many of us have Ikea furniture instead of buying handmade from small designers?"

-m

For awareness, the jacks are very close to the top of the module on the inside, which has prevented me from racking the Waver in any 4ms Pods.

Anybody who's been on the internet at all for more than five minutes knows exactly how some people feel about Behringer, and why.

that's quite an assumption & based on the evidence on this and other forums it is blatently incorrect...

many people have no idea of the history and practices of the b-company or the behaviour/views of the 'owners'... especially if they are coming to eurorack (or semi-modular) synths without other experience in the music tech world... same goes for Synthrotek...

it's easy to forget that the knowledge that you have is not actually common knowledge, even if a large number of the people that you interact with on the internet are also party to this knowledge

the only really stupid thing is making uninformed decisions... and those who are uninformed have a right and a need to be informed - at least here, it is, to some extent, humourous and not swept under the carpet or summarily deleted, as it is on some other forums...

it's almost impossible to completely avoid the b-company - another music tribe brand manufactures (and is the sole manufacturer of) a lot of electircal components commonly used in music tech (including by quite a few higher end brands)... some of their products are the only choice if you want some specific synthesizers or modules...

goin into '24 with a few new modules and a new layout

No, you're right, it's stupid. Anybody who's been on the internet at all for more than five minutes knows exactly how some people feel about Behringer, and why. (I'm not saying I agree or disagree, nor am I getting into the specifics of that why here, that's been re-hashed over and over in every Behringer thread EVER.) Uli lives in these mothers' heads rent free, and they in turn make the rest of us miserable with their griping and crying and often, with their insulting undertones insinuating that if you buy a Behringer product, you are somehow a lesser person and worthless as an artist. Somewhere along the way, they managed to occlude the cognitive dissonance of bashing Behringer while spending the bulk of their meager existences consuming Chinese garbage cloned from existing products and manufactured under dubious conditions by companies who are no better.

The end result is, if one looks for information about a module and Behringer's name happens to be stamped upon the faceplate, you will have to wade through countless repetitive, counterproductive, idiotic comments from the aforementioned losers in order to find any actual relevent information - all this despite the pinned "Forum Rules" insisting that we be nice, stay on topic and avoid socio-political BS.

-m

Poor argumentation.

Let's take an unoffical poll: how many of us saw what ever module B had released and immediately upon seeing it thought, "Hang on?! That looks like...", then wondered here to have a closer look and get confirmation?

Of course there are very few new concepts, mostly just merging differnt combos of current building blocks, with specific UX/UI. But the fact that they haven't even tried to do anything different, layout, labels...It feels at the least provocative, if not an outright middle finger.

Power consumption (from the user manual) is +12V: 120mA and -12V: 120mA.

There is more to the Behringer situation than just ethics. Quality is a factor too. My first exposure to Behringer was a little more than 20 years ago. At the time I was not into modular but I was into Hi-Fi. I purchased a fancy Behringer digital equalizer (19" rack mount) and straight out of the box it had an extremely annoying echo that would randomly come and go on the right channel, and the audio quality was not very good either. This EQ was supposed to use its included microphone to measure the room's response and adjust the EQ parameters accordingly--this did not work. As part of my troubleshooting process I tested the microphone by itself and found its response to be all over the place. I was able to operate the EQ manually but no matter what I did the sound quality problem and the right-channel echo persisted. Behringer's tech support was useless, luckily the dealer I bought it from was willing to take it back and give me a refund. The unit was cheaply built given the price and their customer service was essentially non-existant.
The next time I heard about Behringer was on a youtube channel focusing on vintage electronics. Things like 1950'-1980's computers, teletypes, electromechanical calculators, vintage electronic test equipment, early space communications gear, were the usual features on the channel. Then one day a modern Behringer UB1202 module shows up instead of the expected vintage NASA stuff. I didn't know what Eurorack was at the time, but I do rembember the engineer complaining as he replaced every capacitor in the module because they were bottom-of-the-barrel junk which had all failed.

On the ethics side of things, I feel their copying of other designs is reprehensible, but at the same time I think that kind of thing is tricky to talk about. I would much rather buy from innovators rather than soulless corporations mass-producing inferior copies of someone else's idea but the harsh reality is that we all have to do that kind of thing from time to time. I'd bet that many of those who would criticize others for purchasing Behringer modules out of financial necessity own plenty of products which were copied from other designs without credit, they're just things they don't notice or care about. Do you own a socket set? If it wasn't made by Snap-On, it's a knockoff....but I certainly can't fault the average person for buying a cheaper one. How many of us have Ikea furniture instead of buying handmade from small designers?

In addition to Jim's advice, I'd invest in a way to integrate with VCV, as there's a ton to discover when it comes to generative and VCV willgive you all the scopes and modules you'll ever need to figure out what modules to buy. I'd also de-prioritize trying to make everything fit neatly into a case because you don't know where you'll end up - none of us do!

I don't understand all the screaming and bashing of Behringer products.

then you haven't been buying music tech for a long time and/or haven't done a minimum level of due diligence

there's a big thread on modwiggler re the ethics of the company... I suggest you read at least some of it! it's not a new thing - they've been doing it since they started, at least 20 years ago and not just with synthesizers... cheap and shoddy knock offs of whatever music tech they think they can sell... and not treating customers or competitors or critics with any respect whatsoever...

let me correct this for you:

If you want to combine quality with design, buy Intellijel or Doepfer or others, if you want to buy inexpensively, buy

Doepfer or Ladik

Doepfer Quad-VCA is only slightly more expensive...

indeed - on a per vca price - so are veils clones or the intellijel for that matter - we're not talking about cwejman clones!

So people, make music or noise, but let each buyer make their own decision!
-- ricochet-75

but let's make sure that it's an informed decision and not based purely on price:

do you want to buy from (corporate) arseholes who only poorly copy other peoples designs or do you want to spend a few extra quid and give your money to small companies that actually design things (ok so those designs may be based on other things - but at least they put some effort in and may actually innovate from time to time)