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Hello,
i wrote you a message but i'm not sure you saw it ?
About the hertz donuts.
Anyway let me know :)
cheers

Wowzer Lugia this was a super deep treatise on generative music and synths! I'd love to see a patch guide example to help budding self generative acolytes like myself apply this to our modular systems. My large system has plenty of LFO, VCAs, sequencers and logic modules and even a comparator now. I hope someday to see a book and video series on modular synthesis from you and I'd definitely buy it. I'm finding modules like Mutable Instruments Marbles, Acid Rain Maestro and WMD SSF Toolbox great items to help with self generative music creation on modular.

Hoot! Looking good

Yeah, as I look into it more (and now that I have my actual skiff today) I'm realizing I'm overworrying a bit. I know I'm a little out of my depth with the technical side of electronics, so I'm being super cautious in making sure I'm not overlooking something. Thanks for the link, I will indeed be bookmarking that.

Thanks @Lugia for a super interesting post above!

For others interested in this, you might check out these threads:
-- https://www.modulargrid.net/e/forum/posts/index/9673 ... see esp. middle of the post where, in response to some questions from me, Lugia posted a 9U 84HP rack and discussion of its generative capabilities
-- https://www.modulargrid.net/e/forum/posts/index/9516 ... see esp Farkas's posted video on Generative, and Lugia's larger proposed rack build with comments

I'm interested in continuing to learn about generative modular / hierarchical musical control systems SO if anyone else knows of good threads, vids etc. on this topic, please do add in Replies below.

Great question Garfield,

I would have to wear each on a scale and find out. The MDLR feels heavier as it is solid birch wood than the Doepfer monster case.
The Doepfer base/monster were expensive together cost close to $2800 but with discount cost me about $2300 and not cheap but I figure for all those expensive modules the solid power supplies and case will be worth it. Now I won't have to buy another case for a while until I fill up the 300+ HP and 140HP in the 6u case free.

Hi folks,

Here is my current "midsize rack" design. It is intended for i) EDM lead / bass tones ii) learning modular iii) fun and exploration.

This is the round 3 design, after "just ideas" in February, and an earlier build mockup in March.

The basic design logic:
-- Row 1 is "voicing" with 2 oscillators, 2 filters, a wavefolder, and a little bit of mult utilities in the middle
-- Row 2 middle is "brains" with Vector Sequencer and Scales (quantizer) to the left. I did choose to keep a quantizer (in addition to the sequencer) in the design as I wanted an independent chain to sequence pitch class sets. And I went with Scales over a couple other suggestions as Scales better fits my thinking and workflow.
-- Row 3 is CV (Stages through Batumi) followed by VCA, effects, and signal out
-- tucked in a few other places are attenuator / logic modules (4MS SISM, ADDAC Sum&Diff, Triplatt) to control / mix CV signals; Doepfer narrow mix and steroe mix to let me have a couple chains through the OSC, filters, Wavefolder; and Kinks
-- modules are selected by i) what's inspiring to me ii) what modules will complement others iii) what is in stock (vs. having to wait forever) iv) to keep some "easier to learn" modules involved (vs. having huge manuals for everything)

Regarding layout:
-- I wanted Voicing on top row, the Sequencer in a nicely centered position, effects and signal out in the lower right
-- other items are arranged thinking how I might normally patch them, and where the HP is a good fit

I'm curious:
-- what do you think of this build?
-- would you consider this a deep / fun rack? If yes, why, if not, what changes would improve it?
-- are there clear ways to improve the layout?

Thanks to anyone willing to have a look & kick around some ideas on this. And thanks for the many helpful comments on my earlier posts!

Nicholas

Hi Sacguy71 and Lugia,

Sacguy71: So which case is heaver that Doepfer PMS12 thing or the MDLR 12U?

Lugia: Indeed expensive, hence why I prefer the A-100 LMB/LMS9 set instead, better affordable, but of course doesn't look as good.

Kind regards, Garfield.

So everyone on here is a troll, got it!
-- Hellseeker

No, not really. But if you're going to post a build, and it's got clear and apparent issues, you're going to hear about it. And this one fits right in there...

For one thing, there is an excess of audio modules here. I see several possible audio chains...except for the fact that you've only got five VCAs for this entire build, and you need VCAs for both the audio AND modulation. Five won't cut it. Then there's the envelope generators...as in, there aren't any. Sure, you can use the Maths for that, but doing so is sort of like using your Ferrari Dino to pop around to the Circle-K for some jerky and a Monster tallboy. Also, I see no submixing possibilities (and I refuse to count the Erica Mix/Splits here...mixing implies control over incoming levels, not "jam everything in with no control") at all aside of the three inputs on the Fusion VCF.

Then there's all the tubes. Tubes draw more current than solid-state devices, and tend to require beefier power supplies to deliver it. So, at present this build has a "calculated" draw of 2.4A. Then, to avoid inrush (and tubes do current inrush like nothin' else!) issues affecting the power supply, you would need a supply to deliver 3.2A on the +12V rail alone. And that's going to COST...

But what's here costs already...and unnecessarily so, as well. ARE the tube modules necessary? Are they present from the idea that "tubes = loads of noise" (not really true)? Couldn't you do better (and cheaper [and with less current draw]) with some regular-ish VCOs, a PROPER submixer, and a wavefolder to deal with the distortive waveshaping? Do you have to have these large modules eating up your valuable panel space? Panel space that NEEDS to be filled with all of the various utility and modulation modules that are necessary...but not present here for the most part?

There's a term around here for the problem this build has: "Sexy Module Syndrome". This happens when someone gets all hot-n-bothered about slapping "feature" modules in, mesmerized by the blinkenlichts und tvistenknobs to the point that they neglect the fact that those "sexy" modules REQUIRE a proper complement of the "boring" ones so that they can be used to their fullest. That's what utilities DO. It's VERY easy to build a build like this...but all you get in the end is a very expensive noisemaker, and not a proper synthesizer.

I'd strongly suggest looking at the builds on here that are done by experienced synthesists. There's plenty of them here. Note how they deal with this primary issue. Then, if that's not sufficiently convincing, get a copy of VCV Rack and try putting together a mockup of the above (as best as possible in VCV...although, you can get pretty close). See what it does and doesn't do. Then apply whatever knowledge you can glean from those example builds to the VCV mockup...and you'll notice that, all of a sudden, that VCV build is really acting like a synthesizer.

Thanks @Lugia,

Yeah love having it all in one place and infinite patch options. Now I can really sink my teeth deeper into modular and not buy another module for a long time. The Doepfer rig is quite portable and has great covers/handles to take on the road. I know a guy with two monster cases who does events and he has a very impressive rig. They are expensive but I bought mine on sale and Detroit Modular has point discount program so I saved over $300 for a new monster case. For large travel case, the MDLR 12u is hard to beat. I would however get a lighter case like the Amalgamod or NONO Lander Two 104HP 9U Modular Case for less money that still gives over 200HP for mobile power.

Not too shabby...plus, plenty of "hole" in which to put M0AR!!!

Also, don't be fooled here, folks...that Doepfer rig, even with 1000+ hp, can STILL be put on a backseat of your basic car. Yes, both cabs. I wish they weren't so effin' expensive, tho...

You're not even close to a typical current overload situation. Let's look at the math involved here...

Here's a very useful page...so useful, in fact, you might want to bookmark it: https://www.rapidtables.com/calc/electric/watt-volt-amp-calculator.html All you do is enter two known values, and the calculator fills in the rest according to basic electrical physics. So, in the case of the 1 kW PC PSU, you'd enter 117 V for the voltage, 1000 watts for the consumption in watts, and you get 8.5 amps (and change).

Now, armed with that website widget, start calculating your TOTAL amperage draw for your ENTIRE music rig. Then check your breaker panel and make sure that whatever circuit you use is capable of handling the amperage load. My bet is that you're just fine; solid-state electronics such as what's in music gear doesn't tend to have much of a current draw when compared to motorized devices, devices that involve high voltage step-ups, and the like. In fact, your biggest "amp hog" is probably going to be the main monitor amplifier.

Hi Hellseeker,

Since everybody is a troll here, why did you became a member then? Or are you a troll as well? ;-)

Kind regards, Garfield (yet another lasagne-eating-troll).

Hi Lugia,

Wow, a big thank you for this great essay on generative music! Very interesting to read and very informative.

Thank you very much and kind regards, Garfield.

Kel, you really need to calm down. There's no "there" there. And eexee is 100% spot-on; the term, as I used it, is American "carny speak" for precisely the sort of person who someone pushing a $5k QMMG is looking for, just like carny barkers looking for an easy mark among the midway crowd. Nothing "xenophobic" about it.

Hi The-Erc,

If you buy nowadays a new Doepfer case, it comes with the PSU-3 and that one goes up till 2000 mA for the +12 V, that's in most cases sufficient. I agree with you that the PSU-2 with only 1200 mA for the +12 V can be challenging.

Or you could buy the PSU3 unit and replace that with your current PSU2, I do think that's possible but please check before doing so (in case you are interested).

Kind regards, Garfield.

Thanks Garfield,

I plan to keep the MDLR case next to the Doepfer monster case, and use the mostly empty 6u Doepfer case for jams and travel.
I can throw in Queen of Pentacles and Ground control in the 6u case and maybe a good mixer and some utilities and a complex oscillator and have enough to jam and do sets without killing my back carrying the MDLR case which is heavy! I do have a hand cart so could use that also for the MDLR case.

Hi Sacguy71,

Wow, that's a great nice looking and indeed large setup, the A-100PMB together with the A-100PMS12 standing on top of the PMB! So you have now 6*168 HP = 1 kHP ;-) 1008 HP nicely in one large overview :-)

The MDLR case, are you going to use that for when you are going to meet friends or when you want to move with your modules somewhere else (holiday, laying on the beach or on the hotel's room balcony, in one hand a nice drink and the other hand controlling the modules in your MDLR case)? ;-)

Looks like you got yourself a few nice guitars too! I even don't know how to hold one ;-)

Oh indeed, I agree here with Wishbonebrewery, only 300 HP left, that sounds like a serious problem, so next year you buy another PMB+PMS12 set? ;-)

Enjoy your new studio setup together with these new Doepfer cases, now comes the case-versus-module-planning... where to put which module ;-) Have fun and kind regards, Garfield.

I too wonder if this is a UK/US thing. I've never known anyone to take particular offense to the word 'rube' (in the US). Well ... at least not in any sense relating to xenophobia. And Lugia didn't even use it as an insult ... he used it to mean someone not educated or cultured enough to see through the marketing buzz and snakeoil. Which is what the word means. What would be a better word to use in this context?

EDITED Apr 12th 2021, 22:58

Pittsburgh Modular has some real beefy cases if you can make it work @the-erc, power for days. If not maybe we can get @Lugia to sign off on my Micro Zeus idea from the other day.

Thanks... not the answer I wanted, but better than fire and smoke!

Power Consumption: 963 mA +12V | 425 mA -12V
Doepfer PSU2 : Output voltages/currents: +12V DC/1200mA, -12V DC/1200mA

I still have so many hp left! Never thought uncle Dieter would let me down :(

What a post -- thanks @lugia!

Koan... I had a cracked version of that on my Win 95 PC back in the day. Never could make it do anything good :)

Welps compared to folks like @Lugia and @Garfield, and also modular friends in town, my setup is quite a bit smaller.
My friends have WALLS of modular probably 100k plus in gear. Still when one guy I know did a show he only patched a dozen or so modules out of the thousands in his collection.

It is supposed to be a dance night, but all I know about the venue is that will be "a small club". Unhelpful.

Kitting out the rack in mono will save a lot of hp. That said, unless although I add a second PSU per @troux's suggestion, I'm going to run out of juice before I run out of space!

EDITED Apr 12th 2021, 21:01

MASSIVE! and "only 300hp left" hahaha

EDITED Apr 12th 2021, 20:57

Thanks a lot :)

So everyone on here is a troll, got it!

Thanks, yeah it is huge and lot of room to expand. The great thing about Doepfer cases are that they have nice metal locking covers and handles so with a hand cart, one can transport them around fairly easily. I do have my Doepfer 6u suitcase for jams now so that can make life easier when I do jams at local clubs and friends' places. It also helps me stop G.A.S. to focus on mastering my gear and create fun tracks. Here is a quick ambient jam I made to test the case after moving modules over:

So even after moving my dozen or so modules from 6u case and base case to the monster, I still have 300+ HP left over to grow!
While I would love to get 4ms Spherical Wavetable Navigator & Spectral Multiband Resonator (SMR) plus Xaoc Devices Odessa & Belgrad and lots more, I will slow down and create patches with this monster and my MDLR case and perhaps add few modules at end of the year. I do need more long patch cables to reach between cases however. Also getting Mutable Instruments Beads/Blades would be awesome to feed into Rings and Marbles for ultimate ambient patches.

Great patch! Lot's of things going on, but it is not too busy or too long.

How is using a derogatory term, as defined by the link I sent, against a whole group of people not xenophobia?

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/xenophobia

Why am I explaining this?

Why does degree of offensiveness matter?

Why be offensive like that, even just a little bit?

Thin edge of the wedge? Once one person is accepted as being okay to throw slurs around about groups of people, who's to say it's not okay for the next person? Where to draw the line?

I say just don't do it at all!

As I say, what was being said didn't require the use of xenophobic language and it still doesn't.

Someone has to stand up against this outdated and mind-numbingly pointless behaviour, no matter how small it is...

By all means start throwing around the n-word - there are groups of people here in the UK who seem to think that is acceptable, therefore everyone else should accept it right? Er... no!

In fairness to Lugia, that's not xenophobic. Derogatory, perhaps, but not xenophobic. 'Rubes' is pretty benign in the US, maybe not in the UK?

Nice! That thing is huge. I was thinking to get a large cabinet like that, but I am still wanting to keep some level of portability. I know eventually I will get something like that, but will also rethink my studio space to accommodate it.

Gates are sent from the Beatstep pro mult'ed out to the Erica Synths Sample Drum and MI Veils.

The two outputs from Veils are mixed in the Duatt and passed to the CV 1 of Sample Drum, which would be mapped to sample selection.

This should result in each gate from the beatstep pro triggering a different sample and an additional sample when both gates are triggered.

This is the nastiest post I have read on here so far... seriously? Please consider removing the xenophobic language!
-- Kel_

??? What xenophobic language?

-- Lugia

It's hard to believe you don't know...

https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/rube

We are in the 21st Century now, we don't use offensive terms like this against whole groups of people in this way, I mean why not use the n-word? It's along those lines. Not cool.

I'd stop worrying so much if I were you

eurorack psu is similar in current draw to a laptop

you'll almost definitely be fine

My first skiff should arrive tomorrow, and while I've been doing the math to ensure I won't be overdrawing from my available onboard power, one thing I hadn't given much thought to were my surge protectors and keeping the PSU itself powered properly. I've seen uninterruptible power supplies online; is that worth considering, or are there other surge protector related tips/advice people have? I'm just getting into learning this stuff and don't have an especially technical background, so my knowledge of household electrical is pretty limited. I'll be moving into my own house soon, but currently I've got a near-always-running window AC, a high-end windows PC w 1000w psu, 3 external HD hubs (connecting 6 extra hard drives), two 2k monitors, a large Yamaha stereo receiver, a Yamaha MG10xu mixer, a Moog DFAM, Moog Werkstatt, and a few other miscellaneous 9V devices all going in the same small room, not to mention a space heater that occasionally is running (from its own outlet), and obviously a few lamps. Besides the AC/space heater, all this is pretty much connected via a trio of surge protectors across two or three outlets, I think they are pretty decent models and I've had them for years, but I don't know the specs on them offhand.

Is this something I should be thinking about more? I have an 84 hp Synthrotek 3u skiff coming tomorrow, and a double 3u in a couple weeks (though I'll be moving around then), so that's at least 2 modular PSUs added into what already feels like quite a bit of equipment for my little apartment room. Haven't had any problems thus far, I vaguely remember my landlord telling me the electrical for our place (shared multi-unit with his place) was pretty robust, but, trying to make sure I'm covering all my bases here.

EDITED Apr 12th 2021, 03:43

As for the $5k QMMG...clearly, this derp hasn't quite picked up on the fact that Make Noise's MMG is NOT discontinued
-- Lugia

Ah yes, but the CURRENTLY available ones don't have the ugly color scheme or the "good" vactrols.
-- eexee

Reminds me a bit of the snakeoil behind the idea that running a certain, specific green magic marker around the edge of your CDs will make them sound better. I tend to laugh my a$$ off when I run into someone these days who STILL believes this nonsense, especially after Wayne Green (W2NSD, the former editor of 73 Magazine and a shortlived sister high-end audio publication) finally told the story of how he and some of his other staffers cooked this total lie up to see how far everyone in the audiophile community would run with it.

EDITED Apr 12th 2021, 03:39

This keeps coming up on here, so let's dive into it...

Many people think Brian Eno came up with this type of music. Not true, however. To really look at the origins of generative composition, we need to go back quite a bit and look at "process composition" and "stochastic composition".

Process music is a form of music in which a certain set of procedures gets done, with the musical output as a result. Probably the simplest version of this that comes to mind is Steve Reich's "Pendulum Music", a work which involves using microphones swinging back and forth over speakers, with variations in feedback responses being the musical "output". Then when all speakers are emitting a steady feedback tone, you cut the amps. (see here: ) But anything that works in this way...a series of given procedures (sometimes posing as the "score"), followed by a musical result from them, is referred to as this.

Stochastic composition is also sometimes referred to as "chance-based". And that's not exactly correct, as stochastics involves the odds that ONLY certain specific outcomes will occur, with the composer grading the level of probability as part of the compositional process. Actual chance-based music refers to a music that's assembled out of random sources of audio as a result of totally random processes. But stochastic composition only involves the element of chance as far as choices between specific states and/or outcomes.

Now, generative music involves BOTH of these. The setup of a generative system is essentially identical to the "process" part in process music, and that "process" involves numerous chance potentialities with distinct and only slightly random end-results.

If we go back and look at where generative begins, we'll also be going back to the early stages of synth technology...and also, Albany, New York.

Back circa 1970, the State University of New York at Albany premiered its newest piece of music tech, the Coordinated Electronic Music System (or CEMS for short). This huge modular was co-designed by the composer Joel Chadabe and Robert Moog, and included off-the-shelf Moog modules alongside a number of custom control bus modules specific to the CEMS. And one of the very first works realized on this monster modular was Chadabe's "Ideas of Motion at Bolton Landing" ( and yes, that's part of the CEMS on the cover art), which can probably lay claim to being the first generative electronic composition. The CEMS, once programmed, was simply allowed to play itself...and the tape just ran, and recorded the result. Other than those two things, there was no human input at all. And that definitely makes this work the start-point for generative music.

But how did it work? OK...the CEMS was built up around an array of Moog 960 sequencers, plus a bunch of logic functions to manipulate them. This would then send note info to the "voicing" racks while, at the same time, the "modulation" also could play a part in some of the stochastic determinations. In essence, this is very little-changed in many present-day generative systems. But what did change between then and now was computers...

When small computer systems started to become more commonplace, you started to see various types of "automata" applications that involved aspects of generative processes...but very few of these involved the direct generation of sound. Instead, you saw MIDI applications such as "M", which applies stochastic principles to the generation of MIDI data to be sent to synthesizers. But this situation would change rather quickly, mainly due to two developments.

The first was the development of sound hardware that could act directly under the computer's control. Prior to the first DAW systems, sound cards on computers were kinda "meh". But when Digidesign first put out the Samplecell hardware and the Sound Tools software to work with it, this then opened up a new vista on how the computer could address the synthesizer. Within a couple of years, this was sort of obsoleted by Digidesign...but a new version of some IRCAM software stepped into the gap, namely Max/MSP. Max was, of course, the object-oriented sound programming language developed by Miller Puckette during his tenure at IRCAM for use originally with the 4X machine, then a further iteration was part of the ISPW (IRCAM Sound Processing Workstation). But a couple of iterations later, and Max/MSP was created to directly address the DSP in the Macintosh architecture so that you had what basically was "ISPW, the Home Version". The doors had been flung open!

Around this same time, a startup called SSEYO started to figure out how to create a music composition "system". This eventually became Koan, which was more or less the first "all-in-1" generative package. It included a SoundFont-like system for its voicing, and various stochastic methods for creating various types of musical fragments, which were then combined in a final patch to generate new pieces of music. It was around this time (early 1990s) that Brian Eno began extensive experiments and use of Koan, as part of his interest in "self-regulating systems", such as the tape delay system + sequencer rig used for "Discrete Music". The best examples of this can probably be found on Eno's "The Drop", which is a collection of ambient works primarily programmed and realized in Koan.

BUT...

One of the things that Eno noticed (along with a lot of other people) is that computers don't necessarily deal as nicely with gradual changes as do analog systems. And this can be directly attributed to the fact that computers work in discrete steps, all the way back down to the basic 1 and 0 of their binary architecture. Now, there ARE analog computers...and, interestingly, it was discovered that these "obsolete devices" were capable of dealing with chaotic systems FAR better than their digital counterparts. A digital computer, for example, really, really, REALLY doesn't like dealing with such chaotic systems as Lorenz attractors...but to an analog computer, calculating that is a snap.

Now, synthesizers have an awful lot in common with analog computers. You have certain on-off digital functions...but the "heavy lifting" in an analog computer is done by linear interaction between a set of op-amps, as these can generate voltage curves and functions with NO stepping and NO binary logic. Similarly, synthesizers involve circuits that are generating sound based on linear, non-stepped voltages plus some digital functions...not much difference, really. And this is where we go back to devices such as the CEMS.

Back when the CEMS was built, there weren't a lot of possible choices regarding modules, circuit architecture, and the like. You had Moog, Buchla, and ARP had just popped up on the scene, plus EMS was in startup mode as well. And that was about it! Nowadays...well, just LOOK!!! Choices abound! And this simply makes generative even MORE attractive.

But the problem here is that many people think generative synth programming is pretty simple. You get one or two things, set up a patch that makes them boop and bleep in a relatively even manner, and that's it...right?

Uh-uh. REAL generative systems are capable of running for HOURS (or days, weeks, months, years...) on end, very rarely repeating anything, but still staying in a certain composer-defined "lane". This goes back to another thing that Eno explored while still working with tape loops, in that he found that you could create an essentially non-repeating result by mixing several inequally-long tape loops of homogenous musical material. The most famous use of this is, of course, Eno's "Music for Airports", which were actually deployed in several airports as sonic installation pieces. But you can see how well this can work if you just do a little math; let's say we have three loops, one is 34 seconds long, the next is 55 seconds, and the third is 107 seconds. These will line up again after 200,090 seconds, or 55.58-ish hours of continuous playback. For an installation in a place such as an airport, no one will likely perceive that the music contains these looped iterations provided that the sonic material on the loops gives little to no indication of obvious cadential signals. The piece will simply seem to go on forever.

And this is the sort of thing that should be aimed for in generative modular systems.

Now, HOW to get to this has numerous possibilities. But nearly all of them involve a larger amount of modules than you'd typically find in yr.typ monosynth. And they also involve what's known as "orders of control".

Play a note on a synth. That's "1st order"...your keypress causes two control signals to be generated, one for pitch information, the other for time. Shorter press, shorter note. Higher keypress = higher note. And so on...

But with generative music, this concept basically goes batshit insane!

So...here's our synth again, waiting for notes. But THIS time, we're not using the keyboard. Instead, you've got three LFOs and three quantizers. Set each LFO to a rather long period, use different waveforms. Then feed each LFO to a quantizer, and program the quantizer so that each "step" also causes a trigger to be sent to the EG, etc. As long as you've inputted the same scale/mode for each quantizer, you'll have a three-part result that keeps repeating notes based on the CVs generated from the LFO behavior. Now we're starting into generative turf!

Three lines = boring after a while, though. So, let's now take a fourth LFO and use that to control the rates of the other three...but with a twist, in that we're going to use a multi-attenuator module (think Intellijel's QuadrATT tile here) to change the voltage behavior sent to each LFO from the fourth one. So...one gets timing LFO signals at 2/3rds of the level, the next gets 1/2, and the last is on full...but inverted! This has us at 3rd order, with the "main" LFO controlling the three others, which in turn control note generation via the quantizers. At THIS point, you're getting into "nonrepeating" territory, and you have timing variation.

Is that as far as you can go? HELL, no!!! So...let's toss a comparator into the mayhem, and set it up so that it reads the "main" LFO's output and outputs its gate when the comparator voltage level gets crossed. So then you take THAT gate and invert it, then send it to a VCA that's controlling the output level of your "third voice" in our theoretical system. Now, when the "main" LFO goes over that voltage threshold, the comparator turns "voice 3" off by dropping that VCA's CV to zero (via the inverter). 4th order, and we're just getting going here...

So...a few MORE comparators and VCAs, and we're going to drop these into crossmodulation patches between our VCOs. Now, we not only have the system self-regulating on timing and note generation, plus the "tutti rest" on voice 3, we ALSO have a similar comparator-VCA setup controlling FM aspects between the VCOs. Even better, you could just as well use envelope generators before the VCAs, key THOSE, and get gradual changes of VCO timbre. You can even affect spatialization this way, by using LFOs and EGs to control panning circuits, and those can get as complex as you want (Ambisonics, anyone?).

Sequencers get fun like this, too. This is why you want 'em to have gate and/or trigger outs on each step, because you can use those to mess with things. F'rinstance, take a trigger out from step 11 on a 16-step sequencer. Then connect that sequencer's "reset" function to a Boolean logic AND gate's output...and input two of those comparators to the inputs of the AND gate. And as for that step 11 output, send it to...oh...the "sync" on one of the three LFOs. Now THAT gets wild...the LFO waveform will only reset if and when the sequencer gets to step 11, but with the sequencer's reset keyed to the combination of two LFO waveforms (via the AND gate), this might only happen every once in a while.

And on and on and ON...

So, if you think you can cram a "generative" system into an 84 hp skiff...forget it. To get a SERIOUS generative result requires quite a few modules, because you're creating a system that has to:

1) generate several musical parts
2) have massive order of control capabilities so that you arrive at that nonrepetitive goal.

If the output sounds like something NOT made by a machine, then you win every Internet made since 1896. And you'll have succeeded at building a generative system that really, honestly, ACTUALLY operates in self-regulatory generation. But as noted, this takes space, it takes a lot of "not so typical" modules, and it takes some understanding about how chaos-based systems of this sort work as well as knowledge of modules that can work in tandem toward this result. It ain't cheap. It IS a considerable hassle. But when it comes together and you get that stream of generative sound...yeah, it's worth it.

As for the $5k QMMG...clearly, this derp hasn't quite picked up on the fact that Make Noise's MMG is NOT discontinued
-- Lugia

Ah yes, but the CURRENTLY available ones don't have the ugly color scheme or the "good" vactrols.

Very cool and I just put most of my 6u modules into my new monster case so now all my modules in one place for easy patch access. Really love the combo of Doepfer 12u monster base with 12u monster case. Tons of room on base for sequencers and mixers and have room to expand. However, now that I have a lot of modular stuff, I need to process and dig deeper into my setup! I am still learning how to make use of complex modules like Rossum Mob of Emus and Acid Rain Maestro and how to tie my sequencers together to create fun submixes and chains of patterns.

Do you really need stereo in a live show? Aren't pretty much all club sound systems mono anyway?
-- the-erc

Depends. If you're talking about a dance club, then yeah...most of those systems are summed-down to mono before hitting crossovers for the frequency division to the amps for the different driver sections, especially in the low end. However, if you're talking about a venue that primarily deals with live music, those DO tend to be stereo quite a bit of the time.

This is the nastiest post I have read on here so far... seriously? Please consider removing the xenophobic language!
-- Kel_

??? What xenophobic language?

The +12V rail is the main one that modules use. Not everything requires the -12V rail, and these days the trend with the +5V rail is for some manufacturers to put the downconversion onboard the module that needs it. But the current headroom issue is per rail, since the two 12V and 5V rails are all powered by different circuits. And you can pop the +12V by overdrawing, but leave the -12 and +5 (unless the +5 requires the +12) more or less intact. So if you've got 1500 mA on the +12V rail, and the P/S feeding the rail is rated for 2A, you're fine. But getting too much further above that 1500 mA gets a bit dicey, particularly if the build is very module-dense as each module will have SOME inrush...and adding each of those up can get you into the trouble zone pretty quickly.

EDITED Apr 12th 2021, 01:29

Thank you both, incredibly kind!

And.... I am slowly working on an album of such pieces. I've even gone so far as to get new strings for the upright for the first time in over a decade, though I've yet to install them. I'm also going to see if I can afford to pay someone to do some Peter Brötzmann/John Zorn-style sax on a few things. We shall see!

@cmb_ is right, Monday32921 is a 10 out of 10, I want an album of that!

The little less skronky one (Monday32921) is exceptional! When you first posted the original one (Free) I was a little taken aback when you referred to it as a "goof" because as I was listening, to me, it was so serious and spot on, but I completely understand where you a coming from and how "goof" is appropriate. Really nice the both of them.

Hi farkas. For output to pedals look at:
ADDAC200PI Pedal Integrator
https://www.addacsystem.com/en/products/modules/addac200-series/addac200pi
I wanted the ADDAC but it wasn't available at the time so I ended up with knob.farm Ferry which is fine.
https://knob.farm/modules/ferry

There are many other pedal interface modules which you can find here on MG including this "full-feature" module, Merge, from Adventure Audio:
https://www.adventurepedals.com/eurorack/merge

Strymon makes one as well (AA.1 Amplifier Atenuator)
https://www.strymon.net/product/aa1/

For input I use CG Products Pre:
https://www.cg-products.de/
For input you are probably all set with the Doepfer A119 (seems perfect, pre-amp, envelope follower, and comparator).
But check out some of the other modules from CG Products; the Peak + Hold, Noise VCA, Delay 1022, etc. With the Peak + Hold > Noise VCA I can get very good percussion sounds with guitar as input (or really anything as input, basically pinging the filter). I have an envelope follower from Grp.

I have done a lot of stuff with guitar and the modular but I should say I have only played around a little running guitar through the modular. The guitar has been on a separate track and I haven't really recorded anything with the guitar going through or modulating the modular. You can use the signal for FM with VCFs, VCOs, etc. and go crazy running the audio through Clouds, Arbhar, Nebula, etc. But I find I haven't utilized any of that when I record tracks, I mostly use the modular as the 'rhythm section' or I'll comp chords and let the modular do its thing. Maybe now you'll have inspired me to utilize it in this fashion, I hope so!

Let me know if you discover anything good.

Hi ModLifeCrisis,

Now that's a lovely long track! The way you play with those sounds is beautifully done, it's a pleasure to listen at it :-)

He, he, very recognisable that you sit behind the computer and reshuffle the racks with your (future) modules and indeed quite additive; I experienced that as well. I need to start doing that for my new studio setup somewhere soon as well but still hesitating because I know once I start, I barely can stop...

Thank you very much for your nice demo video and the great sound, this is how every weekend should start, very enjoyable :-) ! Kind regards, Garfield.
-- GarfieldModular

Hi Garfield, thanks for the response. I appreciate it. It is very hard to stop, once you stop. I'm now considering a mainly Mutable Instruments set up and am too afraid to start it. :)

That is a great patch and performance! Love it. The slow degradation of the repeats on the El Capistan is such a great subtle morphing effect. So many great disparate sounds brought together in a very cohesive way.

And I totally understand the ModularGrid addiction. You're not alone. I've fully embraced it and it's been a remarkably fulfilling journey so far. Modular tickles me in so many ways - the scientist part of my brain is more stimulated now than it has been in decades, the musician part of my brain has been seriously broadened, the hobbyist/collector side of me is getting satiated. I'm thrilled to have discovered this experience.

I always enjoy your videos. Please keep them coming.

Cheers
-- TumeniKnobs

Thanks. Glad you enjoyed it. And good to know I'm not alone. I love the way you're embracing it. I think that is very healthy and something I should maybe try. Cheers to you too. Regards, MLC.

That is a great patch and performance! Love it. The slow degradation of the repeats on the El Capistan is such a great subtle morphing effect. So many great disparate sounds brought together in a very cohesive way.

And I totally understand the ModularGrid addiction. You're not alone. I've fully embraced it and it's been a remarkably fulfilling journey so far. Modular tickles me in so many ways - the scientist part of my brain is more stimulated now than it has been in decades, the musician part of my brain has been seriously broadened, the hobbyist/collector side of me is getting satiated. I'm thrilled to have discovered this experience.

I always enjoy your videos. Please keep them coming.

Cheers

Thanks to @Plexusgel for a fast shipping and good packaging. Quick to answer and friendly!