User Posts

maybe a bit of background...

what are you going to use this with and what are you hoping to achieve?

Hi Gabe

you could try copying the rack Lugia made and then making a bare bones version that you think might work and post it back to check it will at least make sounds - possibly start with only 1 voice maybe a slightly less expensive case...

mantis case

a sound source (dust of time), 1 modulation source (Maths), 1 sound modifier (beads), a way to play (I'd go for marbles over permutation and expander), and a way to listen (the 4ms thing)

add in a bunch of almost essential utilities - not necessarily these modules, but covering the same functionality - links, kinks, shades, veils (I'd get a real one though not the clones)

play with that for a while and then think about how you want to move forwards - do you want to move towards a more complex voice, or a second voice

if by 3rd row you mean the bottom one - it is mostly modulation sources and utilities - modulation sources are needed so that you don't need to constantly tweak the knobs yourself like a deranged crackhead - you can patch these modules to do this for you - utilities increase the ways of patching so instead of patching modulation source to modulation input you patch via utilitiy modules which enable you to multiply, modify and merge them into more interesting waveforms - for example as an envelope closes an lfo is mixed into the signal to produce tremolo this is fed to the cv in of a vca and the effect is applied to the audio being sent through the vca

Hi Garfield

I see why you were shocked then!

Jim

The shop in Greece indeed still sells them but at what price...? Wow!

Hi Garfield - I just checked the synthesizer.gr link and they seem 'reasonable', how much were they before?

EDITED Apr 2nd 2021, 10:16

if you want to find the least noisy power supplies then look towards modular video synthesis - virtually all lzx modules up til this point are very susceptible to noise and up to much higher frequencies (MHz instead of KHz) - you can literaly see the noise on the video output - small blocks appear that shouldn't be there for example

the PSUs that are generally recommended for video are the Doepfer PSU3 and the TipTop studio bus - and Malekko used to do one, but have discoontinued it I think

of the power supplies I have:

The PSU in the Mantis is very similar to the studio bus and works perfectly well for video

The Befaco Excalibus also appears to do a great job

Frequency Central PSUs introduce noise - for me - horrible - but are perfectly fine for audio

Haven't tried the meanwell in my Bastl Marton case for video - may give it a quick go next time I re-arrange things - which could be within the next couple of months

From all accounts the Intellijel ones are not suitable for video

Regarding outputs - I live in europe so don't bother with one - the only reason I would get one is if I needed balanced ouputs - which I don't - and I use an es8 as an audio interface anyway - current output patch is master out of tex-mix into streams for compression into 2 multiples - each one patched to es8 (usb to iphone), a unity mixer (to create a mono mix for sensory translator) and attenuators to go to speakers (so I can reduce the volume without impacting the audio reactivity)

for now i have ditched the ES-9(might add it again though)but i ordered a blood cells d.o.mixx https://bloodcellsaudio.com/products/domixx

that should give my multitrack recording.also ordered the acid rain navigator,next thing on my order list is the tetra and tete
-- Broken-Form

what are you using as an audio interface?

don't over look the mutable trio though - of links, kinks and shades! and don't worry if there's a bit of overlap - some things are good to have two of

I like matrix mixers and vcas a lot for mixing copies of modulation sources together and producing more complex ones - both are obviously also useful for other tasks - creating send/returns and feedback mixing for example

for a function generator I like maths - it's ergonomic and it's not overly complicated - also the illustrated manual is a fantastic learning tool - 32 patch programming examples - which hopefully also give you further ideas for patching other modules

I've not used others though to be honest though - rampage in vcv rack is the closest I've come - falistiri (or whatever it's called) just seems too cramped and all over the place - DUSG looks like a great idea - simple and workman like and AI are just releasing a single channel function generator - which might be a good buy - or a pip slope or 2 - add some utilities and you have similar functionality

unicorns can go bigger - 342hp

I would suggest just starting with a big rack (168hp by 4 rows is more than big enough) and work out what modules you want and what modules you need to support them, then get that checked by experienced modular users - by starting a thread with the url of your public rack for example (I think you can just comment on it) - this often takes several iterations and then once that is done, add a bit of space and power headroom for future expansion - add a further 30% to the power and then find a case or cases that satisfy both the power draw and the hp requirements

this way you can ignore the constraints of the case and power and concentrate on what you actually want to get from the modular and what you need to actually achieve it - it also stops you buying too small a case and then having to go and buy another one in 3 months when you realise that you "need" Maths (for example) and you only have 12hp left

good starter sizes for eurorack cases are 9u * 84hp (Doepfer), 6u * 104p (Tiptop Mantis) or 6 * 140hp (b-company go)

the doepfer and tiptop cases have been around for quite a while and have proven themselves to be solid and reliable cases and power supplies - the b-company one seems popular - I think it's a bit under-powered for the size personally

I've replaced the LIP with a few useful utilities - alternatively the matrix mixer, links and a wmd/ssf toolbox would also work well

personally I would consider either an extra row almost exclusively for utilities and maybe a bit more modulation - a function generator or 2 perhaps or reducing the size of some of the modules by replacing with similar smaller modules - the mixer and the attenuator perhaps seem a little on the large size as does the sequencer (which could go into a control skiff)

a decent selection of utilities will massively open up the capabilities of your synthesizer, they are the inexpensive dull polish that makes the expensive shiny modules actually shine and stops them tarnishing

chromagnons still haven't shipped - that's just a place holder - sometime this summer would be nice

Clones make sense to me...but only from a space standpoint. For example, if you're putting together a build in a 2 x 84 hp cab, it's probably not the best idea to go with a full-sized version...space is at a premium, and you need to maximize functionality over space requirements. But if the build in question is huge, then you can either choose the bigger (and usually original) versions, or stick with the formula above and have more space for...well, more.

to some extent yes - but let's face it it's better to start with the modules and then find a case based on the modules than the other way round

could be - maybe it's time to contact ACL support see what they have to say!

maybe sound sources at the top, modulation and utility in the middle and sequencers, mixing output on the bottom row, from left to right - but this is your modular - arrange it how you want it

seriously you have so few modules and so much space it doesn't matter at all - stop worrying about it and play with it - if you find that you want to patch x module to y module constantly consider moving them next to each other - no 3m cables needed - no panic!

have you tried taking everything else out of the case - except minimal modules you need to test the sinfonion with?

just to double check - when you 'checked' the power - you checked that the power cable was correctly made as well as inserted correctly at both ends

what case/power is it?

what else have you in the case? - post link to public rack url

same here

I don't much see the argument for buying clones in order to save money - you're not going to save that much from what I can see - especially in terms of the total cost of the modular (1 or 2%) - maybe a night in the pub or something similar - maybe it means that you have to wait an extra month to get the module - is that such a big deal - 1/2 the time you have to wait because there are none available anyway

I'm not american, but I do see it as similar to going into a restaurant in the US and when paying the bill shaking the waiters hand and thanking them very much for their service - but not leaving a tip - and not accidentally like a european who expects that person to be paid properly and not need the tip - but deliberately and knowingly

BUT that's just my opinion and I bear no ill will to anyone making clones - and I believe that at least some of them have offered money and had it turned down

space is also similar to a large extent - not enough space in the case - get another - you were saving your pennies (piggy bank for next case) when buying modules for the last case weren't you?

ergonomics is another factor - the number one rule of cloning seems too be make it smaller - well imo they are small enough already - the only clone that appears to have done this in any way that maintains the ergonomics is pachinko - and not having seen one in the flesh or played with one - I don't know but to me Marbles seems about the right size for Marbles, etc etc

there are ways to find reliable builders - muffwiggler's Music Tech DIY subforum Stickies

it's not that difficult to learn to solder - especially as there are online workshops - such as the Music Thing Modular Control build that Thonk hosted at the weekend - not perfect if you have to buy tools up front too - but actual events may start up again at some point in the future - I learnt at Dutch Modular Festival 2018 (i think) I bought a 50€ kit and built it there had a quick lesson and checked etc - I've now built about 60 modules - DIY does not save money - it means more modules for the same money, eventually

re: FR4 panels - they're not that bad really not got any big ones but small ones seem fine - and I wouldn't see that as a show stopper - it's actually a decent way of shaving a few quid off the costs - aluminium panels are not cheap!

in terms of quality of components - 99% of the time it will be the exact component as described in the bom or the nearest available (mostly identical) part from a major supplier most of the time - because that's what's in the BOM freely available and almost always selected as the cheapest part that will do the job properly - there are some end of lifed components - but most of these have similarly priced alternatives - the big area where worse quality components are substituted (and this is debatable to some extent) is the move from pots to trimmers - generally pots are bolted to the panel and soldered to the pcb - which massively helps in terms of structural integrity - trimmers can only be soldered and not bolted - but saying that I have a fair few reasonably high end modules that have pots and no bolts - but then there are almost always screws holding the panel to the pcb in order to compensate - but trimmers also often reflects a reduction in size which then makes the modules horrible to use... but it massively reduces the cost - from memory a trimmer is roughly a third of the price of a pot and knob

The only module that I have where I have 'issues' is Maths - neither channel 1 nor channel 4 function outs like being patched to non-buffered inputs (apparently all make noise modules have buffered inputs) - but not a biggie! like the issues with the 6hp endorphin.es modules - it may be power related...

doepfer - a little bit more expensive but built like a tank - there will be people with ones that are over 20 years old still going strong

mutable instruments links - about 3 times the price but not only do you get 2 buffered mults and a mixer, one of the mults can also be used as a pecision adder and a mixer - very very useful module

or just take a gamble on this one - it's 30quid! do you have anything to check it with?

https://www.modulargrid.net/e/other-unknown-store-o-rack-by-cereal-instruments

EDITED Mar 29th 2021, 21:00

regarding vcos - it's something that you have to work out yourself - listen to as many examples as possible of the ones you are interested in

I'd be tempted to buy your favourite pair of the 2 you have already chosen and live with them for a while - you may find you like th freedom too patch or you may find you want somethign that is more pre-patched (or at least organised) for you

i think I saw just that the other day

I actually have a list of utility modules that interest me, a lot of which were recommendations you made in other threads:

• 4MS SIMS (I like that it can handle precision adder duties, which the Frap Tools does not seem to do.)
• Joranalogue Contour 1
• XAOC Zadar
• Intellijel Quadrax (which you so awesomely included!)

hhhhhmmmm ok - to me only one of those modules is an utility - the others are modulation sources

As it stands, the Batumi is unracked. I actually bought it because I couldn't find a Zadar in stock anywhere. I have about three weeks to return the Batumi to a local vendor, so I am thinking of just getting a Zadar instead. Do you think I could get away with dropping the DUAL ADSR and Batumi in favor of the Zadar? If not, how would your recommendations evolve if I did opt for a Zadar in place of the Batumi?

I would try using batumi - it's a great module, but it's an lfo and not an envelope generator as the other 2 are so functions differently - primarily loops not one shots

adsr is more if you want to emulate a keyboard and zadar is a very complex envelope generator, which is a bit wasted if all you use it for are basic envelopes

Also, I am considering replacing the dual borg with two independent filters. I initially bought it because I need two filters, and figued the Malekko design of the dual borg plays well into the west coast voice. However, I am learning that there are various filter designs (ladder, diode, state variable, butterworth, sallen-key), and I value the variety. This is modular after all! The Moog semis certainly handle the ladder design. Do you have any non ladder filter recommendations? If not, what filter designs do you recommend I add to my system? I am highly considering the Joranalogue Filter 8 as one choice, since it packs a ton of functionality.

Filter8 is definitely very popular - I would also suggest looking at doepfer if you want variety - they are inexpensive and do what they say they do! - iirc there's a compare all video on youtube - which will at least give you an idea of how different filter architectures souond even if you don't get one of theirs in the end

I find it interesting that you mention comparators are an important of generative music. I don't have much experience with raw logic modules, so it is something I want to dabble in if possible. Couldn't I coax that functionality out of the Maths? I feel as though I came across a patch that accomplishes it, albeit at the cost of multiple channels.

take a look at the maths illustrated manual to answer that one - I'm considering a joranalogue compare2 - it will do a lot more than maths will in terms of logic

maths is a great module but when it comes to using it for 'interesting' things like almost all swiss army knife modules it can only really do one at a time

ok varigate 4+ as a sequencer - read this thread on muffs: https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=214970, if you haven't already, not a great v/oct sequencer by the sound of it! but maybe it suits you

there's quite a bit of functional duplication in the crossfader department - I don't actually think I've ever seen a rack with so many before definitely not this size! I would start with one - which will help free up space for a better sequencer, if that's what you decide - maybe keep the antimatter audio one - gain 10hp

there are other things that could be reduced in size or removed:

do you really need an output module? - maybe - if it's just for headphones then there's a 2hp alm hpo module that will do that - gain 4hp

the z5000 could be replaced with an fx aid xl - gain 2hp

the quad vca could be replaced with something smaller - either another veils or the 3 channel happy nerding vca perhaps - gain 6hp

the function could be replaced with a second pip slope - gain 4hp

maybe if you replace the sequencer you will get one with a built in clock - so you do not need the horologic solum - gain 4hp

plus the varigate 4+ for another 12hp

if you do all those things that would give you about 40 hp to put a sequencer in - which will give you a much better choice - you can always put another crossfader back in after finding the right sequencer

even if you are looking to stay with the varigate - I'd consider all those possible changes - definitely something to think about, as it will leave you some space to explore

yes, you just need the correct cables 1/8"->1/4"

Nicholas

that's the only good reason for wanting a quantizer - but I agree with @mog00 - get something that can quantize, but isn;t just a quantizer - O&C or a disting would fit the bill and do other things once the metropolix arrives - I'd read the manuals for both before deciding - and make sure you check out hemispheres the alternate firmware for O&C which massively extends its capabilities

EDITED Mar 29th 2021, 04:35

well you didn't mention that you had another audio interface - sorry mixer - why not just go straight into that then and bypass the mixer and the es9?

if it's audio it doesn't need to be dc-coupled - that is just for cv

it would help us help you if you made your rack public - so we can click through and get infomatics etc

I think 4 voices is too many for a 6u

how are you intending on sequencing if not with the minibrute

I'd read the spec again - it's a mixer with outputs for each channel - which is really handy - especially as they are post fader

it could be used to feed nicely into an es9, but not an audio interface

Hi Nicholas

things I've noticed

you can probably drop the quantizer - metropolix already has one built in - so unless you have a specific use case I'd leave it out (at least for now)

the expander for batumi is useful

you probably don't need a pair of buffered mults - I would opt for a links instead as it will give you a couple of simple mixers too - the top one of which can be used as a buffered mult too (and as a precision adder) - often all you want for a mixer is to add a couple of things together gates for example and these are perfect for that too

i'd go slowly with mixers - get the quad vca to start with and then work out what you actually need as you need it - I started with a veils and a rebel technology mix02 - which was a fantastic combination especially as I also got a headphone out - so it really depends on what else you are getting in your first batch of modules - if it were me these would be plaits, stages, metropolix, the quad vca and the black hole dsp (but I'd substitute a fx aid xl, personally) with kinks and the triplatt hot on their heels - it's possible that the next module you will want will be a mixer of some description

other than that I don't think I would plan any further - you will work out what you want/need as you patch

utilising utilities: take a modulation source patch it into a utility - to multiply, modify or mix it with other modulation sources in order to make more interesting modulation sources - slow lfo mixed with fast lfo, a slow lfo opening and closing a vca that allows a faster lfo through, mix this with an envelope that is opening a vca for a vco to get a tremolo effect at the end of each note, attenuate an lfo or envelope so that it's effects are less, invert it so it does the opposite - ie closing a vca instead of opening it etc etc

I think QPLFO is DIY only now - Exploding Shed just got them in - so still available - you just have to build it or find someone to build it for you!

famous last words...

do you really need both midi and a sequencer?

if so I would consider an external midi -> cv solution and a bigger sequencer (with fewer channels) for ergonomics mainly

if you only need midi clock then there are expanders for Pams that will do this in 2-4hp

remember to buy stackcables or headphone splitters

make the rack public and post a link to the rack (copy and paste the url here) not to a jpg - no click through or infomatics on jpgs - they really help us help you as there are thousands of modules!

a delay would be useful - consider an fx aid xl - it'll add delays, more 'normal' reverbs, lofi, phasers etc - definitely good for all stated genres - make sure to get the xl it has more modulation inputs and better ergonomics than the standard version

a matrix mixer for mixing bits of modulation together to generate more interesting modulation - I like the doepfer (as it has full size knobs and space and is inexpensive) - but the instruo lion looks interesting

stackcables (or another passive mult) - for utilizing the matrix mixer and still having the original modulation available

a basic starter set of utilities - links, kinks and shades will add a lot for not that much cash - other modules that do similar things are available - wmd/ssf toolbox covers a lot of ground too

I'd want 50% of this size of a case to be modulation and utilities for manipulating it...

it's never too late to learn!

FYI like all befaco modules - the joystick is available in DIY too - I built mine from a kit - it was reasonably straightforward iirc - a little bit of wiring for the joystick was the most difficult part

case : LC6 is a decent choice - @Lugia will be along soon to tell you the LC9 is better valuee for money (which it is) and so are Mantises... but not by that much - personally I think the LC9 is a little bit underpowered...

Modulation: good start

Utilities: good start

Stereo Mixer: it really depends on you - personally I would want at least 2 stereo channels and 2 mono channels that can be panned - for now I wouldn't worry about it

Purchase Order: sounds like Beads and Arbhar are a way off - I would probably want some form of effect at the start either a filter or a multi-fx: fx aid xl seems to be the best of that bunch at the moment

can you make your actual rack public so we can see it

why would you not want maths? - a wonderful modulation source, in a rack of mainly granular and effects - I'd still want modulation sources and utilities no matter what I was doing with my rack

mine either go in a cardboard box or on the floor in a heap by the modular (note my modular is also on the floor not a desk - due to position of TV - for video synthesis)

as for the optimum number of cables - to start with count the number of sockets in your modules and divide by 2... get a selection of lengths - up to a bit bigger than you think you need so there's some slack when patching

as you get more modules the ratio of cables to sockets will reduce - you probably won't patch every socket of every module every time you patch

I tend to buy cables in batches - 15 to 20 at a time - when I notice I am getting low at the end of a big patch (especially if I am planning on getting more modules soon) and possibly a couple of stackcables when I buy a module - especially if i need to add a few € to get free shipping

currently I'm really liking PolarNoise for 90-150cm braided cables and befaco for some very long cables (3m) - I also like the Black Market Modular cables

what are you trying to achieve?

it looks like you threw a random collection of modules that generate and process audio and some that might trigger them, for the size of the case a poor showing of both modulation sources and utilities and what there is is not enough - not a lot of research - and misunderstanding of what modules actually do - you'll have a hell of a time using hel without odessa

try counting the number of each type of module you have - you have sound sources, sound modifiers, modulation sources, sequencers, trigger sources and utilities

are the sound sources stereo or mono?

will the effects stereoize mono signals?

have a think about the ratio of them and what they are used for and particularly how you would use them when patching

think about how you will listen to this - do you have enough mixer channels, do you have enough vcas, do you have attenuators (or any other tools for sculpting modulation)?

how many sequencer channels do you have? how many voices that use v/oct? how many buffered mults? do you own tuner? do you have on on your phone?

take the neutron out of the case - it's a waste of space and money - the neutron already has a case and power supply

this will free enough space for ample utilities and modulation sources to support the shiny feature modules that you have in your case

there's no point buying lots of sound sources and sound modifiers and ways to play them, if you can't listen to them for starters

NP

no idea about Befaco Percall - although I have a few of their modules and power supplies this is not one of them - they are usually pretty decent - all mine are diy - I think SynthDIYGuy does a good youtube demo of this module (he often builds them and then demos them sometimes in separate videos)

modulation? big topic and I see you asking about utilities too, here's my take:

in my opinion:

you are better off with fewer sound sources than sound modifiers
you are better off with fewer sound sources than modulation sources
you are better off with fewer modulation sources than utilities

in other words

sound sources < sound modifiers < modulation sources < utilities

where modulation sources and utilities are at least 50% - possibly more if sequencers and any output modules are to be considered utilities

this is because:

you can mult (utility) a sound source and send it to multiple sound modifiers through separate vcas (utility) opened and closed by different envelope generators (modulation)
you can mult (utility) a sound modifier and send it to multiple mixer (utility) or vca (utility) channels
sound sources and sound modifiers usually have quite a few modulation inputs each some of which may need attenuators (utility) before them
you can mult (utility), modify (utility) and mix (utility) modulation sources and send them to many modulation inputs

etc etc - see how often the word utility pops up

but a sound source could be a trio of VCOs, or a complex oscillator, or a complete voice or have 3 outputs and get counted as 3, or also be an lfo and get counted as modulation too or a modulation source could be a quad in which case it probably counts as more than one

what it boils down to is in all probability you will need more mixers of various types and cascading vcas and other utilities than you think you do now

but take all this with a pinch of salt - but - it depends on you and how you patch - for example you might need only one or 2 vcas per voice, you might need 10, you might want 16 you might not want any

buy modules as you feel you need them.. if you think you could use another XYZ module then pick that up - that's why it's useful to have a swiss army knife module such as disting - you can immediately grab that extra vca or delay or whatever that you need and if you keep needing it replace it with an actual module and then disting is free to plug whatever gap comes up next

@JimHowell1970
"the psu looks to be a standard meanwell power supply - great if you are only using low powered modules - but not so good if you want to use something high powered - the fact that the builder states the number of power headers, but no the available power may or may not be a cause for concern - I would at least ask before buying"

I admit this is where my lack of knowledge comes into play. I had no idea this was something to keep an eye out for - I just assumed "powered case" would be enough to power any combination of modules that fit into the case. Thank you for the advice.

that's why most cases and power supplies state their available power on each of 3 rails +/-12v and +5v and why at the bottom of your rack on modulargrid there is a sum of the power draw for each of these in the rack and a warning if there are modules that don't have power draw listed (I always allow 10mA/hp on both the +ve and -ve 12v rails for these)

make sure that the power draw of your modules is significantly less than that available from your power supply - allow at least 20-30% to allow for inrush and inaccurate power listings

    "personally I prefer the mantis over either of these cases - but that may just be me, partly because the mantis power supply is clean enough for video (less ripple up to much higher frequencies) whereas by all reports the intellijel supplies are not so quiet"

I would probably already own a Mantis case if I wasn't also so picky about aesthetics (even though it's a little bit larger than I'd like)! I like making videos with my synth gear and having a good looking case that appeals to me is part of the whole package. You mention the possibility of video "noise" and some power supplies not being clean enough. Is there a proximity effect to this? i.e. Would I need to be careful about how close my camera gets to my gear if my case happens to have an "unclean" power supply?

I barely notice my cases when they are full and patched and I quite like the mantis aesthetics anyway - but I understand aversion to aesthetics - I really dislike the rackbrutes for the same reason (and the rack wart)

by I can see video noise I mean from a modular video synthesizer - my modular is both audio and video - not proximity effect from rf interference or whatever on a camera that is close to the modular - analog video is at a much higher frequency than audio and I can see artifacts on the screen when I use my frequency central power supplies to power modules that are in the actual video path (as opposed to modulation sources) but there is no noise at audio frequencies - my befaco and tiptop power supplies are great for both audio and video though

you can see here - https://www.instagram.com/jimhowell1970/

I've done a lot more searching around the net and have come across another small but seemingly reputable eurorack case builder from France that mentions a LOT more detail about the cases they make: Modulaire Maritime.
https://www.etsy.com/ca/listing/663523749/modulaire-maritime-accra-6u-eurorack

Can you speak to the power supply used in this build? The size is exactly what I'm looking for (I have decided on 6U, 84-88 hp would be more than enough for a long term build) and I really like the aesthetics of it.

looks ok - power looks ok - but I have no experience of the manufacturer and they don't advertise the manufacturer of the power supply

funnily when I clicked on your link CaseFromLake (as linked by Lugia) were in the banner ads

    "not many people can afford to go out and fill a case with modules on day 1 - and it's not often recommended either - whilst most modules are relatively simple to understand, lots of them all at once is not - and those that do need a bit more time generally fail to get it when purchased in huge batches - so starting with a few modules and learning them in depth before expanding is a great idea"

Again, another great point made and something I instinctively abide by. I've been working with two Moog semi-modulars for just over a year now and still have more to explore with them. Although it's time to augment that setup with this new modular journey :)

Thank you for all of your recommendations around how to output, modulation, attenuation, etc. Definitely gives me a solid starting point and feeling a little more comfortable with my starting module choices and some ideas on how to support them with more utility.

glad to hear it!

EDITED Mar 20th 2021, 02:12

No problem

looks ok - I suspect it will change as you start buying modules anyway - buy what you are missing when you are patching - keep a copy of this to compare with the actual filled rack when you get there

no personal experience with the droid - I do know there is a long thread on muffs that Mathias (der man mit der maschine) posts in - support seems good

I started this before Lugia posted!!!

the obvious thing especially after what you have said in your last post is a lack of modulation and utility modules

I don't think you're going to achieve your goals in 10hp though and loosing batumi seems counter productive to me

my recommendation would be to put whatever you were going to spend on that 10hp module towards a new case the same size as this one

and then fill it with some modulation and utility modules that support them well matrix mixer, mults, logic, sequential switches, waveshapers, random and one or more modules that can work like meta-controllers - ADDAC VC Transitions and the like!
Doepfer are fantastic for utilities - inexpensive and do what they say they do

EDITED Mar 19th 2021, 16:32

Newbi question:
Would it work if I just take the audio out of any madule and connect a 1/8 to 1/4 adapter and go into a pedal and then return?

-- dadodetres

depends on the pedal - moogerfoogers work fine, for example

I didn't find any lion no input mixing videos - but I did watch a tutorial on no input mixing by Sarah Belle Reid... so not all lost

lion certainly looks like a fantastic module - I really like the patch programmability aspect of it - maybe I'll pick one up sometime in the future if I see a used one for a decent price

well I went and watched the divkid video and then his chat with Jason from Instruo

interesting module - not for me - as I said I'd loose the loop cables or have them in a pencil case where I forget I have them - I have some plankton ninja stars and this is what happened to them, because I could never find them!

I didn't see no-input mixing as an example in the video, so I'm off to youtube to search...

I think if this was something that I was going to try I'd try with a simpler matrix mixer to start with - but then I already have a couple!

hmm they may be more psycho acoustic than acoustic!

glad to hear you are safely moved and away from gunfire!

the picture above does not match the link.... so which is it? I'm guessing the link as it's more mi

vaguely similar to what I started out with - I was mostly mutable and maths forced me out of my too small starter case! - but that was before the release of stages, plaits and marbles - iirc my first modules were veils, clouds, tides, peaks, rings and a rebel technology mix02 and some moogerfoogers and the cp251 (which I already had) and then I added a 2hp tm and tune

so why Turing Machine and not Marbles? - as you have multiple voices in both versions Marbles would seem more useful as it is basically 3 quantized turing machines in one module - otherwise you are stuck with the single interval - you could use stages as a sequencer and links can be used as a precision adder iirc - but you'd still need to quantize stages - alt firmware may have this feature, idk - or you could use 1/2 the disting - how were you planning on quantizing the turing machine?

I'm not convinced about the usage of things like teletype - personally I'd rather program a modular with knobs and patch cables, than by writing code and I think they are something that seems like a great idea at the time and then would not get used - pushing this out would also make space for marbles, another cascading vca or mixer (possibly shades or happy nerding - particularly for mixing modulation) and going for an original plaits instead of a clone - everything else mutable is mutable.. so this looks out of place to me! you might also be able to squeeze in an fx aid xl - which will cover your delay and a lot more - try to go xl if you can fit it in = not only is it more ergonomic, but you get a lot more modulation inputs - so much more useful!

I'd hold back on the bastl outs - if you are in the us or japan you will probably want balanced outs, if you are elsewhere the outputs from the xpan will probably work fine - if you need headphones then alm make a reasonably priced headphone module that is 2hp!

as farkas said - @troux is likely to have some good advice...

I'm no expert on acid but I think you would benefit from a slew for portamento which is one of the main characteristics of acid (the slowed rise and drops to the notes) as far as I am aware

general issues that I can see though are:

the sequencer is single channel and you do not have a buffered mult to accurately make a copy of the v/oct signal to both the bassline and the pico voice - this would also benefit from a sample and hold or a second sequencer (and a precision adder - to accurately add the 2 v/oct signals together) - so you can derive a second sequence from the single channel - otherwise you will only be able to play an interval - which would be dependent on how you tune the voice modules

the sequencer has a quantizer built in so the 2hp tune module is redundant - redundancy is often good in modular - nay desirable, but not in this case at your stage of the journey

you may have confused the tune with a tuner, it's not (see above) - get a pedal and the appropriate cable or use your phone - I use a korg pitch black I had lieing around

both the bassline and the pico voice are voices as opposed to vcos - this implies that they have filters and vcas built in (the bassline definitely does - I have the DIY version) so the filter is kind of redundant and probably not in an overly desirable way either

you don't have any envelope generators - whilst you could use the gate from the sequencer to trigger both the voices (the passive mult will work perfectly for this) it is an on off switch - sending this first to an envelope generator is a good idea - even better sending it to 2 different envelope generators - with one channel going to a clock divider or some other method of altering it (a gate delay for example) would massively help in terms of making 2 melodic parts, one for each voice

no modulation source - you really want one of these - at least an lfo of some sort preferably 2, one that can sync to the clock and one that can run free at the same time - consider Maths - for the simple reason that it is a great learning module and incredibly versatile - see the illustrated manual for further details

what's the use case for the input module?

you don't have a mixer - most people would want to mix the 2 mono voices (and potentially your external sound source) before sending to the output module - if you desperately want stereo get a mixer that will pan mono signals to stereo - if your use case for the output module is headphones then get a mixer with headphone outs too - I started with (and still have a rebel technology mix02 which does both these things)

you may not need the output module - where are you geographically? US and japan apparently often need output modules because the power is unbalanced - in which case a balanced output is probably a better idea - otherwise they are often just a 'nice to have' module

small modules such as the mult and the pico modules are very awkward to deal with as they are so small (you have seen a module in real life haven't you?? some people are shocked by the size, even after watching weeks of video) you will want to space them out between bigger modules

it might be an idea to have a read through of these - the sticky threads in the eurorack sub-forum of muffwiggler, sound on sound magazine synth secrets series (available as a pdf online I believe) and there's a couple of older articles on starting modular synthesis that are good (if a bit dated), the muffwigglers book of bad ideas, the maths illustrated manual and read a load of other newbie threads - even if you think they are not relevant to you, because of genre - a lot of the advice will be generic

even if right now all you want to do is make a squelchy acid bassline - do the background research, it will serve you in good stead for the future - there's a reason it's often called eurocrack!

Hi CBD1000

thanks for reaching out!!

top row - kind of ok - too many sound sources in my opinion = BUT it is a percussion rack! so not surprising really

bottom row - it's all sequencer and mixer

overall - not that balanced - I would want more modulation and utilities (but then I almost always do) and from the looks of it you realise this yourself, already!

so 2 possible solutions:

1. add another row for modulation and utilities

2. remove stuff and replace with smaller modules

so more space in the top row - dump the tangle quartet and the ledRover - replace with veils - 20dB+ of gain introduces quite a lot of grit! and you get 4 channels of it and they are vcas!!

I'm not going to comment on the drum modules - voices/vcos are a very personal choice - but they are big and there are other modules that will do similar things in less space (but they may not be as ergonomic!!)

as for the sequencer and the mixer:
work out what functions you absolutely must have for drum programming - could they be met with the pams and clever use of logic modules and other utilities? do you need recall (Pams even has that!!) - have you also looked at other similar modules - tiptop and robaux swt16+ spring to mind! robaux may be diy only, idk - but if you want it and you can't solder and don't want to learn there are many, many builders out there who will make it for you

regarding the wmd pm - I very very nearly bought one of these... but after months of thinking about it ended up getting a Tesseract Modular Tex-Mix system because

it has most of the functionality that I wanted
what functionality it doesn't have is easily patchable (auto-panning and cv over aux) with other modules*
it's very inexpensive - I diy'ed mine - but they are not much more built (the diy is really the panel furniture and headers - smd pre-soldered)
expandable - want more channels add another module with either 4 mono or 4 stereo channels - want direct outs? they are post-fader! want mutes - they are built in as is a cue mix

*this is the key note here - it's modular - learn how to patch basic functions (utilities) to do other things - you may not need 2 channels of auto-panning more than 20% of the time but you will probably need more vcas, modulation, inverters, etc etc the rest of the time - if you have a comparator and a vca you have a compressor (if you know how to patch it) etc etc etc

ok my thoughts on this so far:

too many sound sources and sound modifiers (feature modules) for such a small case - looks more like VSTs in a DAW than a balanced modular synth!

almost no support modules (utilities) that open up the possibilities of modulation

for me a balanced case would be at least 50% modulation and utilities (mostly utilities)

utilities are the inexpensive dull polish that make the expensive shiny modules actually shine and stops them tarnishing so quickly

work out which modules you really want - get some advice on what utility modules would work best to complement them and get the most out of them for what you want to achieve - and then find the right case - expect plans to change over time as you learn more about modular and how you patch it and what works for you!

don't rush out and buy all the modules at once - as I said above - start with a few modules and grow slowly

put the modules in a public rack and post the url in this thread! then we can see them!!!

all those modules will fit in a case - but you'll probably need 9-12u - these are still portable, if not so compact - I'm pro finding the modules you want, adding the modules you need to support them and then finding the right case - not buying a tiny case because it looks good (and you can fit it in your handbag) and then trying to cram (miniaturized) modules into it - but I do believe a lot of people are into that these days

However I would start smaller - 6u/104hp is a good starter size, not too big, not too small - Mantis is a good example - decent power and reasonably priced - difficult to find right now, but I believe re-stock is imminent

pick one sound source, one sound modifier, one modulation source, a way to play and a way to listen and go for it - add 1 or 2 more modules once you know these modules inside and out - maybe a month or 2 - and then repeat

The list of modules though is made up completely of what I would call feature modules - shiny expensive things - and no support modules (utilities) - these are usually overlooked by newbies - so don't worry you are not alone

utilities are the dull inexpensive polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine and prevents them from tarnishing!

in my experience you can do a lot more with fewer sound sources and modifiers and more modulation and utilities, than you can with a load of sound sources and sound modifiers and less modulation and utilities

I think about 50% of a modular case should be devoted to modulation and utilities - mostly utilities!

a good starter set of utilities is for example - mutable links, kinks, shades and veils - or other modules that cover all or most of the functionality of these modules (wmd/ssf toolbox goes a long way for example)