Thanks Lugia - much appreciated. I'll be taking the plunge in the next few weeks. Looking forward to letting you know how I get on!
What does everyone think of this guy? I'm running midi from a keyboard for random Arpeggios to make some polyphonic results, but I really wanna make some more noisey, ambient slowly evolving pieces. Thoughts?
Except for one little issue: the 'power-on' draw issue. Most Eurorack modules don't have this to a major degree, but there's some major offenders out there. The Roland Aira modules are one example that're particularly egregious, and the vast majority of tube modules (not all, tho) have a big power-on draw, sometimes over twice the normal operating draw.
Even so, a multitude of little power-on issues can accumulate into a big one. My rule of thumb, drawing from amateur radio experience (where current draws can change quite a bit during basic operation) is to exceed a specified draw by at least 1/3rd. So, for example, if your totalled operating spec is 500 mA, make sure you can supply at least 750 mA. The extra amperage won't be a problem (it's a measure of capacity, unlike voltage) and having the reserve will not only avoid power-up problems, it'll also let the P/S loaf along with less heat and component strain, making that part of the system last longer.
-- Lugia
Thanks for the advice
Except for one little issue: the 'power-on' draw issue. Most Eurorack modules don't have this to a major degree, but there's some major offenders out there. The Roland Aira modules are one example that're particularly egregious, and the vast majority of tube modules (not all, tho) have a big power-on draw, sometimes over twice the normal operating draw.
Even so, a multitude of little power-on issues can accumulate into a big one. My rule of thumb, drawing from amateur radio experience (where current draws can change quite a bit during basic operation) is to exceed a specified draw by at least 1/3rd. So, for example, if your totalled operating spec is 500 mA, make sure you can supply at least 750 mA. The extra amperage won't be a problem (it's a measure of capacity, unlike voltage) and having the reserve will not only avoid power-up problems, it'll also let the P/S loaf along with less heat and component strain, making that part of the system last longer.
Actually, the Dixie II+ is an excellent choice, it packs a lot of capability into that space. The only thing I might ding it for is cost, but considering the functionality jammed into it, you do get your money's worth. However, you might check and see if the Dixie II+ has the same backplane connectivity that the Dixie II has (see that module's listing for an explanation). If so, then I'd suggest running the Dixie II+ as a 'master VCO' for a Dixie II, sort of like the Moog 901 driver/oscillator arrangemen except that both can output signal since both are proper VCOs.
Modulargrid tells you how much current from each rail you will be drawing, but don't rely 100% on that. In any case, it's a maximum draw number, IE with everything on there pulling it's max.
In any case, it's pretty helpful. The manuals for most modules, or at least their webpage from the manufacturer, should also tell you how much current it will draw.
Tiny but cool...I'd go with a regular passive mult, though; you don't have enough voltage splitting in here for it, and you can save a little chunk of cash that way.
Definitely post some noisemaking examples with this thing...it looks properly 'abusable'!
-- Lugia
Thanks! I’ll look into passive multi, I just now learning about these things. I was looking to make things as “bomb proof” as possible; but without realizing the implications of that. Knowing now that I have to further consider power consumption really helps!
One question Lugia - you suggest a 2nd VCO. Do you think an additional Dixie or would there be benefit in an alternative (what would pair nicely)?
Cheers.
Corin
Lugia - thank you so much for your words and advice. Plenty to think about and consider. I'll let you know how I get on!
Cheers.
Corin
Thought I'd toss this out on here in case anyone else has run into this in the new version of Live, and might have some tips beyond doing a reset (done that, didn't help).
I was working on a very long (65+ minutes) work involving a lot of timestretching and DSP work. I had four stereo tracks down and collected/saved, then started in on a fifth. While working with a VST plugin (forget which one, might've been Waterfall) the entire system went into this fatal internal feedback loop, building into a deafening screech that forced me to cut the monitor amp. Then when trying to regain control, nothing was responsive...I eventually opted to quit at Win10's crash prompt, then restart the track from the last save point. But when I tried that, Live was no longer capable of loading. It now hangs at the very beginning of startup, as if whatever happened wrecked the install itself!
I put a service ticket in w/ Ableton support, still waiting to see if they can sort this out. But has anyone else on here run into a crash under Live 10.0.1 of this magnitude? Inquiring minds want to know...mainly, so inquiring minds can get the damned thing fixed so inquiring minds can get the hell back to work! Aaaaaaaagh!
Starting point #1: https://www.sweetwater.com/c644--Drum_Triggers_and_Pads
That's pretty much everything you can commonly get in the marketplace these days when it comes to electronic drum pads, sensors, and the like. The other starting point would be to pull up the 'Drum' listings on here (preferably in Eurorack, which has the most options) and look for modules which feature a drum-trigger input OR modules which can translate a drum trigger into a synth gate/trigger output. Attach part 1 to slot 2, finish the synth build, pull out a pair of sticks and go nuts.
(FYI, the Markdown formatting bollixed the URL above. Insert a _ in between Drum and Triggers, and between Triggers and and, then maybe lose the italics, and you're golden.)
Have a look at this article I posted, which goes into considerable depth on building up a full system:
https://www.modulargrid.net/e/forum/posts/index/2868
That's pretty extensive and a long read, but it goes into a lot of detail about the whats and whys of doing a modular synth build. As for the above, I don't quite think that's going to be workable, as it's missing a lot of what should be there and has a lot of things that either don't need to be there, or that're missing the things they need to work properly.
Thus far, it's OK...basic monosynth sort of setup with a LPG down at the end. A couple of things come to mind, tho; first, consider a second VCO. The Morgasmatron is set up for dual inputs and while it also has dual outputs, it also has its MIX out, so you can feed two VCOs in with some waveform differences and have a little more timbral variation. You can also double them up via sync and get weird harmonic sweeps, put them in different octaves for octave doubling, or just double them in the same octave with a little offtuning for a really big sound...this last one works well on basses.
The other thing is that you might consider a second envelope. The Function will be great for controlling one of the LPGs, but you have two of them, which means you could just as easily have different envelopes for each channel the Optomix is mixing down. Also, another major use for second envelope generators, seen all over the place on loads of monosynths thru history, is to have a separate control envelope for the VCF. But seeing as how the Morgasmatron is two filters in a weird cross-relationship, the ultimate number of EGs you might want is actually four. And that's easily fixed by yanking the Function and switching to something like an Intellijel Quadra. Very easy change there.
With the Yarns in place, you're set for expansion as well. Once you get the basics sorted, that's one to keep for building up a larger rig. But it comes to mind that if you're thinking about that acid sound, the sequencer also matters quite a bit, since the glide function of the TB-303 was part of the weird pitch+filter sweep sound. So, why not kill two birds with one stone here; have a look at the Arturia Minibrute 2s and then conjoin that with a 6U Rackbrute, which comes with power, and is very cost-effective plus offers lots of expansion space. Plus, the patchable Minibrute 2s architecture means you can also insert its individual circuits into the modular setup via its patchbay...and nowhere in all of this are you really getting in so deep in modular synthesis that you'll find yourself out of your depth.
For my first build I need to put together something to add to the project I’m working on. So I’ve decided to build this dual wave guide synthesizer. I figure it can be used in conjunction with my current setup (DFAM, monologue, Mx-1, KP3), or as a synthesizer on its own.
So far I’ve acquired
Lifeforms Outs (installed)
Mysteron
Synthrotek BB Delay
This is enough to patch it up and synced it to the DFAM. Next week I’ll hopefully get the pressure points, buffered mult and ARP.
Does anyone know of a drum pad that can send gates/triggers when struck? I'm looking for something to have outside of my rack as a sort of peripheral for more hands-on performance stuff. If this doesn't exist, how would one jury-rig such a pad?
Hi I'm just trying a modulser synthesizer for liveperforming but also for home productions unfortunately I miss a little bit the plan what I need on modules to finally produce a usable sound
Hi all,
I am looking to start my first modular synth and wondered what your thoughts were on this as a basic starter. Something that will get me going and allow me to start on the steep learning curve journey. My background is 1980's acid house and 1990's Deep House so would be looking to utilise the modular synth in my set-up.
I have not included power, since I will be getting a powered case. Hope that makes sense!
Cheers.
Corin
Just bought an O'Tool Plus, played around with it a little great little module. But I've recently added a new rack and I think I'd find a larger-footprint module like DATA more useful for my needs.
Unit is 100% like new. I paid around $450 Canadian for it, comes in original box. Would be willing to take $350 for it, if buyer pays for shipping.
Well, the history of analog computing sort of dead-ends around 1968, when digital computing became more common and available. It was actually in the 1980s when mathematicians were forced to rediscover this hardware, because they found that in studying and calculating chaotic processes, a digital computer with discrete logical steps wasn't able to sufficiently parse some of these new mathematical topologies. But by that point, a lot of the machines had been consigned to the scrap heap (which is where I found the Systron-Donners) as 'obsolete', and the tooling necessary to produce these on a factory scale again just wasn't available; in fact, many of the firms making them were long-gone. It's sort of like what was happening to modular synths in the early 1980s, when everyone jumped to digital in the rush to something 'better'...although synthesists rediscovered modular synthesizers in time to keep the whole thing from totally dying out, whereas analog computers had long been considered worthless, obsolete dinosaurs in computer science by the time they were pressed back into service again. That's the difference between 'art' and 'science'; sometimes the cutting edge ISN'T what you want/need!
Sure, you can chain as many mixers as is needed to create a suitable composite signal, and that trick works for either audio or CVs. Just don't make the mistake of trying to sum the outputs via a multiple, because that would be about when you'd discover that your outputs didn't have reverse protection (resulting in a rather expensive POP!)! Also, you can't exactly use a mixer to sum gates and/or triggers; this is best done with some module that doesn't have a possibility of attenuation, such as a Diode OR or something similar.
That definitely would make sense to design something they would be familiar with. Just put a different application.
Ah, early transistorized stuff, that odd in-between time. In general, analog computers seem pretty fascinating. Maybe I'll try to get my hands on one some day.
Wow, they made that one that late? I assume someone must have been using them then, even into the early 2000's. I suppose they do have their own niche uses.
Perhaps some intrepid hobbyist will come up with a more modern one, that works similarly to some of those.
Sounds interesting, to see what sort of potential these old machines could have for synth usage. Or really anything beyond their intended purpose.
No, not tube, but one of the first transistorized analog computers. But since it comes from that switchover period, it still uses the older +/- 100v standard that was typical up until that general time. It was right around then when the first +/- 10v machines began to appear, but this certainly isn't one of those. As for it looking like a modular, that's because these were the sort of things the modular synth was modeled after; Don Buchla certainly had experience with them as a researcher with NASA, and I suspect Bob Moog saw a few while in his academic studies, pre-synth.
As for the Comdyna GP-6, that's really about the last analog computer that was being made, right up to around 2000 or thereabouts. Comdyna had another machine that they'd specially specced out for music work, though, although I'm not sure if any of them sold. I forget the model number of that one, tho. After they went out of business (so it seems), I don't think anyone is currently making analog computers anymore. And that's kind of...irritating, actually, because they do have more uses than in just an academic/research setting, but one has to actually know how to program one to get any use out of it and that's a bit of a lost art, it seems. In theory, though, something like one might be cobbled together from discrete synth modules, but the thing that makes the Systron-Donner useful is that it's patched more like a Serge, with stackable banana plugs, which opens some not-exactly-computational behavior up for (ab)use.
Thanks so much for your help mate . I’m at a strange where I’ve found what modules I would like but not sure if there are any must have modules to get the best out of my set up so far. Also for instance if I was to send 3 of the dpos outputs into a mixer could I then send that mixed signal into another mixer? As I want to control a few modules at the same time with my beatstep pro. Cheers!
Ah, looked it up and found a brochure for that machine. Surprising how much it looks like a modular. I've actually not seen many like that. Is that one in particular a tube unit? Would explain the +/- 100V.
Definitely would be interested to see how it all turns out, especially how you implement the voltage shifts.
Ah, yea that would make sense then, with not being able to access all the inputs and outputs you would need to really dig into analog circuits on a lower level.
Would be fun to see it done though. Maths is definitely a module I want to learn a bit more about; it's on my "to-get" list.
Is it the Comdyna GP-6 that you are referring to? That was one of the first things that came up when I looked it up.
Might just have to find some of these old analog machines; they look really fascinating, and not just from a synthesizer point of view.
Should be easy enough; Perfect Circuit has them listed as 'arriving soon', and they're pretty reliable as to that 'soon' being accurate. For $189, getting that many functions is pretty amazing...it's worth the wait.
The analog computers I have are Systron-Donner 3300s...they were intended as a teaching machine, to demonstrate the principles of analog computing in a student lab situation. And like a lot of earlier analog computers, especially the very ancient vacuum tube ones, they operate in a +/- 100 volt scheme. It wasn't until near the end of the widespread use of these machines that +/- 10 volts was finally implemented, but one of the last makers of these machines, Comdyna, even marketed an analog computer (about 15-20 years ago) designed for synthesizer applications. Damn shame it came out when it did, because back then Dieter Doepfer had just began the whole Eurorack thing, Roger Arrick was just getting the Dotcom thing going, and so on. Had Comdyna lasted until the present, they'd likely be selling those units at a nice pace!
But because the Systron-Donners I have use the higher voltages, I'm going to have them modified with some 3.5mm outputs that also have hardwired attenuation to pull the voltage down to the more useful +/- 10v, and I might also have some attenuators added to allow me to scale that down even further as needed. It's also going to be necessary to add some circuitry that will allow some common LFO-type behavior, such as CV control over the clocking, a reset gate input, and the like. But the idea is to keep the internal hardware fairly original, which means those removable program panels will have big red letters at the top to remind me "DO NOT PATCH OUT! 100 VOLTS!" so that I don't make some random, dumbass mistake and patch from that to something that can't handle it.
There are larger (MUCH larger) systems out there, but when you start looking at their power draws, you realize pretty quickly that they won't work nicely being just plugged into yr.basic wall outlet. And ten opamps isn't too shabby...considering that you can patch these up in a massive amount of possible configurations, and control/balance them all sorts of ways. The closest parallel I can think of would be if you had several Maths, but they were bristling with patchpoints that allowed you to totally reconfigure every sort of parameter's signal path. That's actually the big difference here; you simply can't have that level of configurability in Eurorack without the control panel looking like Swiss cheese from all of the jacks, and even if you did, it would create such a level of confusion in users that they'd likely give up on synths altogether and take up the ocarina or some such.
And thanks a lot also to @pixfoil for a Random Source ncom; working perfectly. Thank also for the "special delivery service" to Berlin.
Recently bought a module in perfect condition for a very fair price from the friendly @loopspool. Thanks a bunch. Highly recommended seller!!
I like the disting mk4, now if i could only find one. Great suggestions and Thanks !!
Thats a lot of options in a small space i'll check it out. Thanks
Right, I figure that most people are looking more at the oscillators and noise makers more than anything else when they first get started, and don't think about how they are going to control them. It makes sense really. But like most things, I suppose you have to get the "unsexy" things out of the way, and figure out how to make everything work. Fortunately, I already had that in mind, for the most part; just a matter of getting everything together and working.
Oh, that sounds really fascinating. I'd like to see how that turns out. What particular analog computers are you working with?
How are the architectures of modular synths restrictive in that regard?
Well, if you've got 4 hp and you want maximum bang-for-the-buck, consider a Expert Sleepers Disting...DSP-based, multiple uses, basically, it's a very small Swiss Army Knife of capabilities in not a lot of space.
Right...and the interesting thing is, people tend to neglect these sorts of modules because they're not quite as 'sexy' as others. True, LFOs, logic, comparators and the like don't tend to make sounds in of themselves, but what they can do in the process of using a modular as a fully-integrated instrument...that's where they get damned interesting, indeed! Many of my larger-scale test builds on here devote half or more of the instrument to these various control and modulation functions; you don't need a lot of noisemakers to...well, make noise, but if you want those noises to behave in elaborate and amazing ways, you have to deal with the 'unsexy' parts and build in accordingly massive scales. I've gone literally so far in this, myself, that I acquired many years back some salvaged analog computers. The idea with those is to modify them (they operate in the +/- 100v range, I'm planning to have that hardwire-attenuated down to +/- 10v at suitable outputs), then using all three, build a single fully-operational machine with two fully-restored 'program panels'. Even with just ten opamps, these should still be capable of rudimentary chaotic-function calculations such as Lorenz attractors, oscillator patterns such as Lotka-Volterra curves, and so forth. Technically, these can be done on a modular synth as well, but synth modules don't tend to have sufficiently open architecture to allow the user to directly get at the opamp internals on the same scale, so it's actually a bit more difficult there.
Ok im thinking of loosing the 2hp comb filter and the 2hp delay as im not happy with them. That would leave me 4hp to work with. Im thinking about the Mutable Instruments Kinks mainly for the S&H function +. Any other good suggestions on what I could use for the 4hp?
I see, its starting to make more sense. That sort of setup seems really interesting. I can see how just that control chain is capable of making completely random outputs. The sloth looks pretty interesting by the way.
That does get pretty crazy; limitless possibilities, definitely something that I like about modular.
Gonna have to dig more into those, and polish up on my C++. It isn't stellar, but I can use all this as a really good excuse to learn more of it.
In fact, that's the fun of all this; not only applying things I already know, but using it as an opportunity to learn even more.
Right...let's say you have three separate LFOs, plus...oh, a Nonlinearcircuits Sloth and an adder. So...LFO 1 and the Sloth go into an adder so that the LFO's output is constantly subject to slow alterations. Adder feeds LFO 2's rate CV, then that LFO feeds into LFO 3's rate CV. There is pretty much NO WAY that LFO 3 can output anything steady and/or repeating with that sort of a control chain feeding it. Now, go nuts and feed that LFO into a quantizer that's set for something like a minor hexachord with A1 as the root. Then clock that quantizer with...ah, let's get stupid with a comparator that pulls its gates off of a triangle wave from LFO 2. So, each time that fires, it locks in a new voltage on the quantizer. Feed said quantizer into a shift register, clock that critter with another comparator from a triangle from LFO 1. Now, feed those shift register outs to different VCOs set with very different waveforms, mix this down, feed to a VCF of considerable weirdness with an ADSR gated from YET ANOTHER quantizer, this time off of LFO 3's ramp. Then...
...well, you get the point. It's possible to do some extremely crazy stuff of a generative nature like this, or even with simpler patching. And yes, a S&H can work as a quantizer's front end; the important aspect of a quantizer is that, once the incoming signal is sampled and locked-in (either via detecting CV changes or via a clock), its output CV derived from the sampled source is then constrained to a specified scalar tuning. So the S&H is a quantizer part...but not the whole thing.
There's a number of Arduino-based modules here on MG, also...looking around carefully should uncover them. If you're feeling secure in your coding, some even have ways of having their firmware rewritten by the adventuresome. Dangerous...but potentially fun!
Actually, that's not all that bad a current draw, given what it is. For comparison, have a look at some similar Metasonix designs. As long as you're using one of the beefier P/Ss that are out there these days, especially the honkers in the new Pittsburghs, that should be just fine.
Decisions, decisions...yep, welcome to EuroCrack. Seriously, tho...do the Morpheus since it can go off into some warped zones. At one set of sessions many years back, one of the guys I was working with had worked out a Max patch that allowed him to access a E-Mu Morpheus's Z-plane filter's multiple axis controls simultaneously (which E-Mu hadn't designed into the Morpheus because of how the Proteus line synths' UIs worked) and the results were completely INSANE. Given that Dave Rossum's redux of the Morpheus filter in Eurorack IS that filter, but now with total simultaneous control...yeah, I can imagine how bonkers that thing can get. I'd say leave that thing right where is it!
Would things have been different without Bob's input? Absolutely. After all, Bob took synthesizers in a direction that made them more recognizable as a 'proper instrument', such as the keyboard interface, keeping all signals (mostly) on the same level, exponential VCO/VCF response, and so on. Don's ideas were monumental, and we do have him to thank for things such as the sequencer in the end, but the Buchla 100s, back in the day, weren't anything like Bob's musician-friendly efforts. They used a weird CV scaling, they weren't as clear-cut with respect to their controls as the Moogs, and they were VERY counter-keyboard in the initial years. It's worth noting that Buchla actually tried mass-marketing his 100 series systems via CBS (who also controlled Fender et al back in the late 1960s) and they were a resounding flop at the same time that Moogs were selling hand-over-fist. These days, I think we've reached a point where the differences just don't matter, though; everything uses the same scaling for the most part (Korg as well as EMW's EML reissues notwithstanding), all signal levels are designed to interconnect (save for Buchla, still), and this has opened up things to a wild, infinite set of cross-hybridizations of synthesizers. It's not so much a "west coast/east coast" dichotomy anymore.
That does sound pretty interesting. I can see how it can get out of hand quickly, though I cannot imagine that is a bad thing.
When you say chained LFOs, do you mean one LFO modulating another's frequency/rate? If so, that is actually a really interesting concept and I can see how that could create chaotic and interesting waveforms. Sampling it with a quantizer would make it all the more interesting.
I assume that S&H's can be worked into this in a similar fashion as a quantizer, no?
Yea, merging digital and analog is definitely really awesome. It really brings the best of both worlds and blending them together really makes for some neat results. Interesting you mention Arduino, that is something I had gotten into in the past; I'm not superb coder, but I can get by sort of. Using it for synthesis would be really fun.
There's a company called Bleep Labs that makes standalone synths and devices, a few of them use Arduino now that I think of it.
I might try implementing some of their ideas and designs into a Eurorack format.
Little sketch of a quick and dirty patch that I use that creates some incredible sonic timbres. Now that I have the Bitbox, I'll be sampling drums, but for pure analog acid, this is what I do! Criticisms are of course MORE than welcomed!
Right...consider this: you have an LFO cascade with irregular but very long periods. You then set up a comparator to view this, then send the LFO curve on to a filter cutoff, perhaps with some attenuation. The comparator's gate output then goes to the start/stop of a sequencer, so that the sequencer only runs when the LFO cascade's output voltage exceeds X amount. Then you also send the comparator on to a XOR gate, which has a clock on its other input. When both signals are present, the gate sends nothing. But when only the clock is there, it passes and then goes on to some other device, such as a Euclidean sequencer's clock input, so that when one sequencer is running, the rhythmic pattern generation of the Euclidean stops, and when it's stopped, the rhythms pick back up again. This is what's neat about having all of these digital control subprocesses going on behind the scenes; they allow for an incredible amount of complex control staging that can be just as generatively controlled as pitch CV processes are in a generative compositional system. In short: it'll drive ya NUTZ...but that's a good thing!
The big changes in recent years, which partly (I think) got kicked off by Don Buchla via the early 200e modules, is the whole 'digital in analog's clothing' paradigm, where you have analog control over a module which, behind the panel, is based around some sort of DSP setup, either via a dedicated DSP, or a cheap micro such as an Arduino or Raspberry Pi. The ability to seamlessly merge that sort of digital generation architecture in with all of the analog stuff is blowing things wide open right now.
will there be a v2 without the need for the extra power supply?
-- mynoisecontrol
it does not need the extra power supply in version 1 either, it can be switched via internal jumpers to use regular eurorack power.
