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-- JimHowell1970

Moneywise you're definitely right, the Mantis comes at an unbeatable price, especially considering the power. My current case is actually mantis and I'm happy with it. The only thing is that it's not very roadworthy. I'm currently also in a situation where I have to always put away my case after I'm done jamming, so the simplicity of having just one (main) case is pretty lucrative :<

I really appreciate the replies! I've kinda decided that, probably the smartest (not the cheapest) move in the longer run is to get an Intellijel 7U (104 HP) and get at least 2 quadratts and then some. If anybody is selling theirs and is willing to ship to Finland hit me up :)

I don't have any 1u (I think it's incredibly expensive* for what it is in terms of case cost - & I build most of my cases!) but if I did I'd want the intellijel noise tools module

*adding a 1u row to a case costs the same as a 3u row, can only hold 1/3rd the functionality and only saves 3.5" vertically

I'd buy 2 tiptop mantises over a intellijel 7u anyday!!! cheaper and way more usable hp plus arguably much better power!

Good one on the matrix mixer but the only one I've ever considered was the doepfer one, which is unfortunately huge. I've seen some smaller ones, but they usually lack the possibility for cv control, oh well, maybe one day!
-- sulo

the doepfer is incredibly well sized due to ergonomics - I have 2 smaller ones (pusherman and york modular) and they are too small and cramped

you might want to look out for a used rebel technology mix 04 - they are as far as I know discontinued - only 10hp, cv control over everything, but then you need more modules to control it!

EDITED Jul 6th 2022, 10:04

I really appreciate the replies! I've kinda decided that, probably the smartest (not the cheapest) move in the longer run is to get an Intellijel 7U (104 HP) and get at least 2 quadratts and then some. If anybody is selling theirs and is willing to ship to Finland hit me up :)

Good one on the matrix mixer but the only one I've ever considered was the doepfer one, which is unfortunately huge. I've seen some smaller ones, but they usually lack the possibility for cv control, oh well, maybe one day!

EDITED Jul 6th 2022, 09:09

Nice points, Lugia.

Personally, starting semi-modular (Minibrute 2s & Neutron) has been the best way to go. While I now have built up a collection of modules, the semi modulars continue to inspire and have given me a solid base to explore and learn whilst saving money.

Productivity wise, I find that I have become better at finishing tracks since going modular. Recently I have been working on a patch during the week, working out the musical paths in the patch, and then committing to recording in the weekend. Horses for courses of course.

Thanks again for your post. :)

Another disadvantage is that the simplest things can become obsessive. Take patch cables. I have several varieties, which is OK. But I start fretting about how this one is way too flexible, and that one isn't flexible enough. These are way too long, but those are much too short to really route them well. The fit in this module isn't great, but the others don't really do it better. It's hell because there's incredible choice about everything. You ever looked at screws for your modules? Agh! Really! Who has this as a hobby anyway!?
-- Arrandan

Heh...this is why those of us who went through the mindwrench that is a typical "conservatory-type" musical training eventually learn that you have to discipline your mind to ignore things like that. My studio has HUGE jackfields for all of the routing to/from/around the Soundcraft FIVE here; as for an actual count of patchpoints, I think I gave up counting all of that once or twice before. "A lot" seems more correct. But all I worry about with those, the modular "sandbox" gear, and so on is that I've got things hooked up right...and everything else becomes superfluous. And this is with several different plug formats, to boot: the lab gear is all set up for RCA patching, the big bays all do 1/4", the majority of the modular stuff does the 3.5mm thing, and then the Mescaline, AE, and Bastl toys all work with pinwires, as does my Frederick Haer quad window comparator (except for the few BNCs on it that have RCA adapters, that is).

If I worried about minutiae like that, I'd probably not get any work done. Just learn to step back from the gear when the mind starts to wander, and toy with the same idea as a "thought experiment" until you get focused again. Composition's pretty kickass when you find yourself whipping tracks out at a fever pitch...but it takes quite some time to get to that point. Even so, over time you find that the superfluous shit becomes less distracting as your musical output grows. Equipment's one thing, but never underestimate the power of your own brain to sort things out.

I'm in the peculiar situation where I travelled a lot in the past, but I'm not anymore because I have a fairly young family. And I feel the disappearing money more in my shame about it than in my wallet. Which is good, because it makes me rethink every purchase 17 times so I don't make impulse purchases. It also gives me time to really get to know the new modules before I add even more.

but the money hasn't disappeared - it's embedded in a synthesizer... ok so some has disappeared, but it's still actually worth some cash if you decided to sell it tomorrow you'd get a decent chhunk of it back and the rest you have enjoyed - can't get money back from the memories of the travel you used to spend the money on!!!

Still, I've arrived at the point where space is becoming an issue. I wanted to start small but thanks to Jim's advice, I got an Intellijel 7U. It was a great idea at the time, so thanks again. And now it's nearly full. I usually take it down when my wife needs to use the studio to work from home. But if I should get a second 7U, I'd very much want to install it permanently somewhere, which means rethinking the room... again!

hahaha...

7u 104hp IS small - I have about 1800hp (not all filled) and sacguy77 has a decent sized rack too

screw them to the wall? put a desk in the living room/attic/cellar for the wife to work at?

Another disadvantage is that the simplest things can become obsessive. Take patch cables. I have several varieties, which is OK. But I start fretting about how this one is way too flexible, and that one isn't flexible enough. These are way too long, but those are much too short to really route them well. The fit in this module isn't great, but the others don't really do it better. It's hell because there's incredible choice about everything. You ever looked at screws for your modules? Agh! Really! Who has this as a hobby anyway!?

-- Arrandan

I have no idea how many patch cables (I lost count at 300) or types of them I have...

screws - just get knurlies, they're great

Feature request:

Allow 90 degree module rotation and mounting of 1U modules into adapters like this one please:
https://www.modulargrid.net/e/abyss-devices-1u-to-3u-adapter-intellijel

I searched first, couldn't find this requested yet, apologies if this is a duplicate.

For me the cost financially to buy modules and space required for a studio are really the only negatives. I do mostly weird experimental stuff that modular seems to excel at compared to traditional synths and I spend all day at work on a computer so the hands on tactile feel of patching cables to make sound is very attractive therapy. Plus I was not able to travel for vacations overseas for 2.5 years so the money I would have spent on vacations was funneled to modular instead. Love it! But now I have a lot of modules and no need to buy anything for a long time until I can master my gear and make tracks I enjoy.
-- sacguy71
I'm in the peculiar situation where I travelled a lot in the past, but I'm not anymore because I have a fairly young family. And I feel the disappearing money more in my shame about it than in my wallet. Which is good, because it makes me rethink every purchase 17 times so I don't make impulse purchases. It also gives me time to really get to know the new modules before I add even more.

Still, I've arrived at the point where space is becoming an issue. I wanted to start small but thanks to Jim's advice, I got an Intellijel 7U. It was a great idea at the time, so thanks again. And now it's nearly full. I usually take it down when my wife needs to use the studio to work from home. But if I should get a second 7U, I'd very much want to install it permanently somewhere, which means rethinking the room... again!

Another disadvantage is that the simplest things can become obsessive. Take patch cables. I have several varieties, which is OK. But I start fretting about how this one is way too flexible, and that one isn't flexible enough. These are way too long, but those are much too short to really route them well. The fit in this module isn't great, but the others don't really do it better. It's hell because there's incredible choice about everything. You ever looked at screws for your modules? Agh! Really! Who has this as a hobby anyway!?

EDITED Feb 27th 2023, 07:00

You have a lot of nice modules here, with much scope for experimentation (even without A*B+C and Compare 2). About all I might suggest would be some attenuverters (3xMIA or similar). I think that, more than new acquisitions, you probably need to think of ways to shake up or freshen up your patching routine. Maybe focus on one or two modules at a time and really see what you can do with those at the centre, bringing in others for support as needed.

Very cool! I love all the little percussive mechanical bits

matrix mixers are good - primarily imo for creating more, complex modulation... take copies of 4 modulation sources and mix them together in varying amounts to produce 4 more different, but related modulation sources... I like the doepfer as it id both inexpensive and ergonomic

also sequential switches (and switches in general) can be really handy - again doepfer is great for this

re pams - not going to recommend it as such - just going to note that any "dictation in how to patch" your modular is you and not any particular module - especially given what Pams can do...

Ok so, I'll bite. I'm kinda mostly using my rack for feedbacky weirdness, textural fart sounds and other not-so-melodic stuff, however I'd really love to get more out of it. Initially I kinda wanted to go slightly serge-esque route but I got somehow lost in the way. I'm quite sure that the general consensus of recommendations will be "get rid of akemie's and some other osc and get some more modulation/utility, which is all fine; I just don't know what the heck I should go for (Batumi comes to mind for some reason) I haven't actually gotten a*b+c or compare2 but I like the way I could use the former to scale and offset (also with cv!) and compare2 seems like an interesting thing to explore. I got rid of Pamela's new workout cause I felt it dictates too much how to patch my system so pls don't recommend it. B)

Thank you guys so much!

EDITED Jul 5th 2022, 08:30

Lovely stuff Gworn - how are you sequencing? What else is in the patch?
-- gumbo23

Thanks for listening Gumbo! Rings is being sequenced by the Turing machine -> Pico Quant. Pam is sending a sine wave to modulate the Structure input of Rings, which I believe is in "sympathetic strings" mode if I'm not mistaken. Triplatt is used to attenuate the audio signal from Rings (it was slamming my mixer). The accompanying voice is coming from MicroFreak (an arp with ample spice+dice). Both voices are fed through the Valhalla Supermassive plugin in the DAW.

EDITED Jul 5th 2022, 15:09

And if you like "tactile", sacguy, you could always take the big, weird, anachronistic leap into lab gear...boogie like they did in Cologne in 1956!

Seriously! Fact is, while synthesizers were supposed to "replace" all of that gear in electronic music, there's aspects of the sound that NOT having this gear causes one to miss out on. Back while I was in undergrad at MTSU, my comp prof and I toyed with the idea of dragging ourselves up to the State Warehouses in Nashville and reallocating some choice bits to the studio there. That never got done, but I did carry the idea on to my own studio and started adding that stuff from the start. And it turns out, it's just like synthesizers; I got my UBMs for $30 apiece, for example...and these days, if you even can FIND a Rohde u. Schwarz UBM, it's gonna cost! Then in the recent upgrades (still going on...I've got a dedicated VCV machine in the pipeline for installation this week), I added even MORE of that sound with the addition of a buttload of snags from eBay. It's easier and easier to find all of the "old" synths these days, especially as redone module versions, but test gear still has that "mystery" to it and isn't easy to find...or, quite often, to make sense of.

Another Mantis vote here. Don't start in a single-row skiff, as you'll either...

1) jam it full of tiny modules to the point where you have no room to get your fingers in, or...

2) build 2/3rds of a synth, because that's what you've got usable room for.

Small form factor modules DO have uses...they're not bad for things you don't need to tweak often (if at all) and various utility functions, but as main modules...nuh-uh. Case in point is in the build above: if you're going to be cranking on the VCF's cutoff (a very common technique, particularly if you're working out a "builder" track), you'll be having no fun whatsoever doing that while studiously avoiding the VCO's tune control.

It's a running problem. Manufacturers use that to keep their listings from being "vandalized"...despite the fact that the main source for info is, more often than not, crowdsourced from MG's users. Bugs me from the standpoint that if MG users find something that a module does that's NOT listed as a tag by the manufacturer, it's difficult to get that tag added.

An effect pedal interface? There's no reason why not, although it's sort of wasteful in that you're planning on making no use of half the module.

Go dig through Ladik's modules...there's some better/cheaper/smaller solutions to this sort of problem in their lineup.

Very true and I don’t regret it in fact modular is most fun I’ve had years in music stuff.

For me the cost financially to buy modules and space required for a studio are really the only negatives.
-- sacguy71

and they're not really negatives as such... you'd only spend the money on something else and fill the space with other crap...

@JimHowell1970

you'll almost definitely need more vcas then... they are one of the most fundamental parts of a synthesizer... they are incredibly useful for modulation as well as audio - and being able to be used individually is very helpful

I planned to get some attenuators yes, and i heard that Veils had amplifiers that actually amplify.
Ok, now what's the difference between unipolar attenuators and vcas (for which ones don't amplify) ? I ask because i'ld prefer add attenuverters if they can act like "bipolar" vcas..

attenuators (unipolar) reduce the amount of the signal that is sent through them - according to a potentiometer (knob or trimmer)

attenuverters (bipolar) reduce the amount of the signal that is sent through them and invert the signal (before 12 o'clock) - according to a potentiometer (knob or trimmer)

vcas - generally behave like unipolar attenuators - some can amplify too - and are voltage controlled and may or may not have knobs to adjust this

bipolar vcas - are similar to unipolar vcas - but can invert the signal sent through them

personally I don't have any bipolar vcas - I have an inverter that I can use (malekko invmix) if I want an inverted vca - they can also be used as ring modulators - but I have a dedicated one of those and one in a disting so no real need...

the other modules are all incredibly useful and fundamental to modular synthesis

doesn't the studiolive have a headphone socket? attenuators are always useful!
there's a great headphone module from alm busy circuits called hpo

Yes it has. But i leave my 32 tracks at home when I travel :)

the a mixer with a headphone amp or an output module with headphones - personally I would go for the alm hpo as it is 2hp...

the outputs from tex-mex are modular level... really your mixer should be fine...

Regarding all the comments, yes it should be fine.

Besides that, for the MI Stages, I wonder if the qienem firmware update allows the module to be used as 6 vcas.

I just had a quick check and you can apparently get it to behave like 3 vcas - but they're not really that great - I would seriously suggest investing in a quad cascading vca - they are an incredibly useful investment

Anyway it is a question that remains to be studied, and even if it means remedying it, perhaps it is desirable to solve my I/O issue at the same time. I understand your first comment better.
-- Lijcke

nb. the tex-mix has both headphone outs and vcas on the mono-channels, BUT it is wise to remember that vcas are useful not only for audio, but also for modulation and it is not uncommon to use multiple vcas on the same signal path - for example both note shaping and volume over time

hope this helps

@plragde

The mixer issue isn't so much digital vs analog as whether it can handle a hot signal, and I think most can. The Presonus Studio Live seems to have a gain control that can lower as much as -20dB, which should be enough (-13.5dB is what's needed). But I still think it's much easier to have an output module and not worry about any of this.

Thanks, i didn't even seen that -20db on the pot..

@JimHowell1970

you'll almost definitely need more vcas then... they are one of the most fundamental parts of a synthesizer... they are incredibly useful for modulation as well as audio - and being able to be used individually is very helpful

I planned to get some attenuators yes, and i heard that Veils had amplifiers that actually amplify.
Ok, now what's the difference between unipolar attenuators and vcas (for which ones don't amplify) ? I ask because i'ld prefer add attenuverters if they can act like "bipolar" vcas..

doesn't the studiolive have a headphone socket? attenuators are always useful!
there's a great headphone module from alm busy circuits called hpo

Yes it has. But i leave my 32 tracks at home when I travel :)

the outputs from tex-mex are modular level... really your mixer should be fine...

Regarding all the comments, yes it should be fine.

Besides that, for the MI Stages, I wonder if the qienem firmware update allows the module to be used as 6 vcas.
Anyway it is a question that remains to be studied, and even if it means remedying it, perhaps it is desirable to solve my I/O issue at the same time. I understand your first comment better.

Lovely stuff Gworn - how are you sequencing? What else is in the patch?

Some new ambient chillrightout music

Morphagene and/or Nebulae, through Starlab, Timiszoara and Desmodus Versio

@Gworn, same here. I just do this for fun and creating weird stuff is exciting. I never know what result I will get even if I craft patch and sequencer perfectly.

Very poetic and drony. Nicely done! I also like creating weird experimental stuff on my modular.
-- sacguy71

Thanks sac guy. All of my music is experimental by default (because I have no idea what I'm doing!)

For me the cost financially to buy modules and space required for a studio are really the only negatives. I do mostly weird experimental stuff that modular seems to excel at compared to traditional synths and I spend all day at work on a computer so the hands on tactile feel of patching cables to make sound is very attractive therapy. Plus I was not able to travel for vacations overseas for 2.5 years so the money I would have spent on vacations was funneled to modular instead. Love it! But now I have a lot of modules and no need to buy anything for a long time until I can master my gear and make tracks I enjoy.

Very poetic and drony. Nicely done! I also like creating weird experimental stuff on my modular.

I got a mantis case I dont use for sale if you Are in EU

Thanks :)

Groovy dude I dig it!

To celebrate the 4th and cats since modular is all about cool cats making beats, I present a weird funky experimental track!

Now, I know that certain folks here like that NG dude will hate it but don't listen then!

patch info in the video description
thanks for watching

The original Amp & Tone is 16hp. The 2020 version is 10hp. Which do you have? Nothing else is really like it, in 10hp no less.
-- bopodoq

I have the 10 HP

I have a field kit fx for vcas but since it’s a vca mixer they’re merged on the output.. however I may not realise how much I will miss vcas (what you see on the rack url is what I planned to get but haven’t filled all the space yet).
What is a « quad cascading one » ?

you'll almost definitely need more vcas then... they are one of the most fundamental parts of a synthesizer... they are incredibly useful for modulation as well as audio - and being able to be used individually is very helpful

a quad cascading vca is 4 vcas that can be used as a mixer, but can also be split to use individually or severally - veils is a good example

For trigger, pitch and gate I also have a keystep and an mpc one (as a midi interface with the rest of my studio for sequencing). I intend to be satisfied with it for the moment given the staggering sums involved in the transition to modular.

sounds like a plan

Regarding the connection of my system without attenuation to my studio mixer, my mixer is digital (presonus studiolive), so I avoid clipping at all costs then it leads me to always watch the vu-meter (which is right behind me). And, might be wrong but I think attenuators are kind of a second hand solution for my purpose, especially because the output issue comes from the need of headphones socket.

doesn't the studiolive have a headphone socket? attenuators are always useful!

there's a great headphone module from alm busy circuits called hpo

@Cangore thanks, I already took a look on that module and yes it could finally fix all of my needs. But i still expect to find finer solution. Now, regarding that perfection doesn’t exists and since I don’t own an es-9, an harvest man quad pedal send and a proper solution with input gain +30db, I should consider taking 10hp for that.

the outputs from tex-mex are modular level... really your mixer should be fine...

I have to confess that my case seems too be already too small… 😐
-- Lijcke

unless you build in 30%+ for expansion they always do... hehehe

EDITED Jul 3rd 2022, 13:52

I gave the TS1 a few tests on this video, where I've made 3 little (48hp) systems where the TS1 is perfect for the ones that'd like to get/build/work on tiny systems.

To add to this, it'd be great to still be able to propose edits for manufacturer approved modules. The es x mki EDU mixer, for instance, has a typo in its description that I can't fix because it's locked.

The original Amp & Tone is 16hp. The 2020 version is 10hp. Which do you have? Nothing else is really like it, in 10hp no less.

Hey!

I have an Ampo & Tone which i love but i recently scaled down my set up and im trying to find an similiar module in smaller HP, do you have any to recommend?

The mixer issue isn't so much digital vs analog as whether it can handle a hot signal, and I think most can. The Presonus Studio Live seems to have a gain control that can lower as much as -20dB, which should be enough (-13.5dB is what's needed). But I still think it's much easier to have an output module and not worry about any of this.

Your case is too small for the modules you have chosen (because you'll likely need more). You can do all right with a case of that size but it takes some experience to know what to choose for it, and even then, it will be limited.

Thanks all of you for sharing experience.

@JimHowell1970 Here’s the url :
I have a field kit fx for vcas but since it’s a vca mixer they’re merged on the output.. however I may not realise how much I will miss vcas (what you see on the rack url is what I planned to get but haven’t filled all the space yet).
What is a « quad cascading one » ?
For trigger, pitch and gate I also have a keystep and an mpc one (as a midi interface with the rest of my studio for sequencing). I intend to be satisfied with it for the moment given the staggering sums involved in the transition to modular.

Regarding the connection of my system without attenuation to my studio mixer, my mixer is digital (presonus studiolive), so I avoid clipping at all costs then it leads me to always watch the vu-meter (which is right behind me). And, might be wrong but I think attenuators are kind of a second hand solution for my purpose, especially because the output issue comes from the need of headphones socket.

@Cangore thanks, I already took a look on that module and yes it could finally fix all of my needs. But i still expect to find finer solution. Now, regarding that perfection doesn’t exists and since I don’t own an es-9, an harvest man quad pedal send and a proper solution with input gain +30db, I should consider taking 10hp for that.

I have to confess that my case seems too be already too small… 😐

EDITED Jul 3rd 2022, 02:47

It would be helpful if MG provided a means for a user to edit modules locked in virtue of being approved by manufacturer. Perhaps a two-step process.

I recently was able to verify via email that the manufacturer Dovemans is out of business. It would be great if I or someone with greater permissions could mark all of their modules as discontinued.

I have both Befaco Out and Ferry and like them both. Yes, you can use Ferry's send as an output, or as Jim says above, just use your mixer or passive attenuators. But it is handy to have each of these modules. The 1/4" balanced outs/headphone and the cue feature on Out are all useful, while with Ferry you have to use adapter cables, but that lets Ferry be quite small. For the space these take up, the convenience wins for me. You have a number of much larger modules, and you might think carefully about each of those.

Thank Jim !
I need a solution to :
1. input my studio mixer bus out (to send external synths to my modular).

I didn't see a vca in your rack - I would get a quad cascading one (also doubles as a mixer) that actually amplifies (most vcas do not) - mutable veils has always been my first choice and you may be able to find one new still, otherwise a used one, or an intellijel quad will do...

2. lower the modular output to get into my studio mixer but in fact especially for headphones : stéréo out 1/4 jack (to not need any adaptor) TRS if available and a 'volume' knob.

have you tried just going straight from your eurorack mixer? is there clipping? if so attenuators or an output module will work - it'll probably be fine just going straight into your mixer with the appropriate cables - 1/8"->1/4" - I did this for a long time with a basic 15 year old 10 channel yamaha mixer

3. send/return - send modular signal into a Beebo or an Organelle and returning with eurorack level. The Organelle output level is so low that i think it might be guitar level, perhaps so a 'gain in' knob can be very useful.

AISynthesis make an inexpensive pedal interface and you can get 2 in 4hp, if you need that... they are reasonably simple DIY builds - you'll need appropriate cables though (see above)

Don't know if it helps but here's my rack :
https://cdn.modulargrid.net/img/racks/modulargrid_1962355.jpg

please post an actual link (the url) to your public rack - jpgs are next to useless - and there are almost 10k modules - so the chances that I (or anyone else) looking at your rack ad not knowing at least one module is pretty high...

Just a little chip in...
+1 on the Befaco OUT https://www.modulargrid.net/e/befaco-out-v3 Its especially well-priced if you fancy a bit of soldering and will take you down to Line-Level from Modular.

Definitely get a larger case and thank me later. I would go no smaller than 6u. Even better a 9u Doepfer case or perhaps more affordable case would be a Mantis case. Second, you need a lot of support modules! Attenuators, envelope generators, cv mixer, sequential switch, VCAs, so forth.

Tex mix Return A can be configured for line return (it‘s basically a stereo in with simple volume control). Has 1 Master out, 1 configurable ouput (Seperate Bus or Master/ Cue Bus CF) +Headphone out.
Also it‘s a very compact fully expandable mixing solution.
Yes it‘s more than 6hp but it also has your mixing fully covered and won‘t be thrown into the gutter when you expand.
Thank you @JimHowell1970 for the recommendation.
Also dirt cheap. Might suit your needs and even go way beyond.

Edit:
Forgot about direct out‘s expansion which you could also use to go to your main Mixer if you wish.

EDITED Jul 2nd 2022, 15:27

Thank Jim !
I need a solution to :
1. input my studio mixer bus out (to send external synths to my modular).
2. lower the modular output to get into my studio mixer but in fact especially for headphones : stéréo out 1/4 jack (to not need any adaptor) TRS if available and a 'volume' knob.
3. send/return - send modular signal into a Beebo or an Organelle and returning with eurorack level. The Organelle output level is so low that i think it might be guitar level, perhaps so a 'gain in' knob can be very useful.

Don't know if it helps but here's my rack :
https://cdn.modulargrid.net/img/racks/modulargrid_1962355.jpg

I haven't decided on modules 'Befaco Out V2' and 'knob.farm Ferry' yet. In fact, I am a beginner so if you have any advice, maybe a type of module is missing?

Any suggestion ?

EDITED Jul 2nd 2022, 13:16