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Hm...about 7 this morning, I got hit with an idea about this thread. Kind of a nuts idea, but consider this:

So, you want something that's exploratory, that has an unlimited palette of sonic potential, that you'll live with and use for a LONG time without exhausting the fascination, and that's got a unified aesthetic. So, I got my dead ass out of bed, came up to the studio, and started cooking.

And cooking.

And then, it all pretty much clicked in place. Now, this blows your budget totally. By orders of magnitude, even. But it IS everything you're seeking. And it will take some time to assemble this, given the expense, unless you've got deeper pockets than most MGers. However...it's not Doepfer. It's not even Eurorack. This...

...is what I came up with. Now, bear with me for a bit...

This Serge system might seem pretty large. But it's not. Each "boat" (there's eight here) is only 17" long, maybe a couple of inches deep. And yes, you can get brackets for the Serge boats that allow pairs to fold up, so it's actually got a certain degree of portability to it. But it REALLY is at its very best when it's placed prominently in a nice space...the 21st Century postmodern equivalent to having a Steinway in the drawing room, I suppose. So this isn't simply an instrument for playing...it can be set up for generative music for gatherings, and it'll REALLY raise eyebrows with just its presence alone. So, aesthetic AF.

But as I noted before, that's not really the point. FUNCTION is the point. And frankly, you simply cannot get denser functionality than is found in Serge systems. Not even with much of Eurorack, either...because many Serge modules are capable of doing several different things depending on how you've got them patched. For example, while there's only five things labelled as "oscillators", the system here has many more things that can function as that, since even the LFO-type oscillators can track well into the audio range, and modules such as the Universal Slope Generator (yep, the core of the Maths...so the 2nd panel, 2nd row might just look a tad familiar) can also track into audio...so that one panel with two DUSGs is also "hiding" four more VCOs. Similarly, you might wonder where are all the VCAs? You only see four, right? Well...no. There's those, then the four more in the Stereo Mixer, then ALL of the modules marked as "Active Processor" are also VCA-able, plus the X-Faders work that way, too. And there's probably something else that'll do that as well...working with one of these is sort of like sculpting sound, not simply arranging signal chains.

Oh...yeah. No mults. Anywhere. Serges use single banana patchcords...which are stackable. So this thing might seem to have limitations until you realize that sources of audio or modulation can be spread across the entire system, more like building a spiderweb of signals. And really, it's more like audio and modulation sort of...break down with these systems, you don't have a clear division between the two. And that makes the potential for complex sonic exploration go right off the scale! But at the same time, you only have ONE cardinal rule: don't connect RED to RED. That's IT. Otherwise, anything connects to anything here, and functions of circuits can change just based on what you're feeding them with...and can they even change just by changing a signal's basic value: lower, something thinks its an LFO...but jack up the CV, and it's outputting audio. Or modulators turn into sound sources. And on and on...yeah, when I said "exploratory", I really meant it!

Now, yes, this isn't where this started. Not even CLOSE. And one stumbling block here is definitely the price tag. But even though this is a $28.5k budget imploder, the most expensive panel is the last one on the third row, and it's $3k because it has both the Frequency Shifter AND the coveted Wilson Analog Delay on there. Most of the rest (even the TKB Sequencer) float between around $1500-2000, which...if you think about it...if the Doepfer system I slapped together was around $7k, that amount would get 3-4 of the 8 space panels. If you can budget properly and spread the cost out over time, it really won't be that much of a hassle...it'll just take a while, with a hellacious payoff once it's all assembled.

But at this point, it probably looks utterly absurd. That's why, before rejecting this offhand, I think you should take some time, see what this can do...plus what it might do with some hands-on discovery time...and consider if this might not be what you were aiming at the whole time. Copy it to your account (and yes, it'll be fine with a non-Unicorn account), dive into the build, check out the different submodules, and start puzzling what you might be able to pull off with a system on THIS scale. It's not what you'd expected, sure...but surprises can be truly fun, and this'll have an infinite supply of surprises!

Have you tried the Trig input instead of the Tempo CV input?

I would still recommend buying a few modules at a time and allowing for a change in plans. My actual rack is much different than my initial plans.
I’ve argued in favor of the aesthetics being an important part of modular in the past. Just as guitars use flame maple tops and drums have glitter finishes, it’s OK to want your instrument to look cool too. With that being said, if it only looks good but doesn’t have the right parts for YOUR style of music and patching, it becomes an expensive attractive paperweight. I would advise placing function over form as you begin assembling your instrument. Use the thing, don’t just look at it. And if you buy a module that doesn’t fit in, sell it for a small loss and move on quickly to something that actually works for you.
That’s about the best advice I can offer. Let us know how you progress in the journey!

Hi Nabroc. The Expert Sleepers ES-8 is an audio and CV interface that will do exactly what you are looking to do. Their larger ES-9 also functions as a standalone mixer with more channels. There are other (cheaper?) ways, but these are good modular options.
Have fun and good luck!

Hey all. Pretty wet behind the ears still with modular. I have a Behringer 182 that I’m using as a sequencer. Works fine on it’s own. I want to use Pamela’s Workout to dial in tempo for the external clock but nothing happens.

Basic setup is one of Pam’s outputs to the Tempo input of the 182. But it doesn't control the 182’s tempo. I know there is a step I am missing or some fundamental signal flow principle I may be overlooking. Send help

@troux
What kind of midi to cv would be useful for when I want to send midi from my computer to my rack? I'd like to be able to use my rack with Ableton live. Of course I'll need an audio interface, (at least I think) to link the two. Any clues? I want to control my racks pitch info with Ableton Lives midi clips

EDITED Jan 9th 2021, 14:34

I think each of us has a different definition for "functionality," so your approach to a unique, personalized instrument is vastly different than mine, which is great. Yes, this will likely do the things you want unless your idea of experimental evolving textures includes sounds that you would find in something like the Spherical Wavetable Navigator, Panharmonium, Rings, or other wacky digital modules. I like some stuff like that, so your plan wouldn't be quite as functional for me. -- farkas

That's a good point; some of this stuff is subjective but here I am looking for an objective answer to a question phrased in objective terms. I guess fundamentally I'm checking whether there's some obvious blind spot in my plan--as is often the case in these kinds of posts from what I've seen--but I've been fairly reassured.

Either way, it seems like you have a good understanding of synthesis. Dive in. Buy some modules. You'll know if your plan is a good one once you start patching. Have fun with it!

-- farkas

Cheers farkas, thanks for your time. I hope you have fun too.

Hey Garfield,

I have to thank you again for your detailed answer!
Its always interesting to read some patch notes of others, especially about modules I want to have :-)

I think I will start saving some money now and when I will have enough I can decide again whats more important for me now.
But I'm definitely super hyped!

And I also think that it wont be too bad to buy it early because I already know that I want to get more into beautiful and harmonic atmospheres and I have the hope that with the Sinfonion on my side it will guide me to the right direction while showing me what I want and need as my next modules..
I will see :-)

And 30-40 modules really is a large number, unbelievable actually for a beginner like me :-D

Thanks again and enjoy your Weekend Garfield!

Hey Garfield,

thanks a lot :)! I am trying to get more and more into the calm waters of sounds and music.

For the patch notes:
phmk3 sequenced by vector quantized with sinfonion. The vector does a small 8 step pattern and jumps around direction modulated by a triple sloth. The phmk3 goes into mir vca with an envelope from an erica synths eg. Then into a happy nerding mmf filter, then into desmodus versio reverb.
The phmk3 wavetable selectors are a little bit modulated by the really slow inertia output of the sloth.

In short, soundwise: you hear the phmk3 with an vca/enevelope and a low pass filter as well as some reverb, that's all :).

Best,
jingo

EDITED Jan 10th 2021, 00:13

Hey all this is my current set up
Making all things ambient to trance & techno
I'm pretty set for making my baselines, just struggling with some melodic stuff to go with it all tips and patch ideas would be much appreciated :)

Or if you can suggest a module for some melodic stuff

Current set up,

OK...now that we know where this is supposed to go, here's this:

Oh, yeah...now THIS is serious business!

Taking the cue from your explanation that this needs to be more of an "open-ended" exploration synth that can ALSO bang hard, this is my end-result. Several things got removed due to non-functionality (video LFOs, 921B VCOs [they need the 921A driver], non-Intellijel tiles [I'm presuming the cab is an Intellijel 7U x 104], uZeus), and others because of the need to correctly add "assistive" modules for others, and a few things (like the effects) because of that as well as the fact that you might get better results from outboard devices. Here's what this is about:

TILES: All Intellijel format now. Stereo audio IN, dual 1 to 3 buffered mults, Duatt, 1 channel of MIDI interfacing, Noise Tools (contains noise and random sources, sample and hold, slew limiter, and clock), another Duatt, Stereo VCA and Stereo OUT. The Duatts can be used as 2-in mono mixers OR as a pair of attenuverters...and yes, you CAN mix inverted and normal signals with these, which you might find very useful for messing with modulation to the VCOs and VCFs. And the Stereo VCA is placed so that you can impose CV level control over your stereo mix prior to the output. FYI, the Intellijel 7U has connectors for MIDI and audio I/O, and those tiles connect to those case connections. Also, this case has 3 Amps on the 12V rails, and since the build tops out at 1600+ mA on the +12 and just under an Amp on the -12, this should run pretty cool as you're nowhere near the max current load.

ROW 1: Envelope follower (for use with the external input to extract envelope/gate from incoming audio amplitude), dual slew limiters (with selectable direction response), then a Doepfer A-111-4 which is a Quad analog VCO. Following this is a MakeNoise Modemix, a dual ring-mod/mixer with which you can seriously mess with the A-111-4's outputs. You can also screw with those with the Bifold, a multi-input wavefolder and crossfader. Then we have some digital VCOs, clones of Mutable's Braids and Plaits, with a Happy Nerding FM Aid to allow FM crossmod between these (or these and a VCO from the A-111-4). After this is a 4-in mixer for summing, then there's a pair of VCFs...a Steiner-Parker Synthacon clone, very prone to wild, messed-up and very COOL filtering, plus a Doepfer A-121-2 multimode VCF which is more "sensible". Veils clone next, then a Happy Nerding PanMix, which is a six-input stereo mixer with CV panning capability. It's also got a headphone preamp for handy monitoring and tuning.

ROW 2: I chose a Temps Utile clone for your master clocking/initial sequencing. The Fractio Solum is a CVable clock divider/multiplier and the first of a few modules for screwing with the clocking. The Ladik Composer is a psuedo-random pattern generator, and their Comparator allows you to extract gate/trigs from LFOs, EGs, and the like. So then, I put a Tesseract VC Logics after those so that you can use the dual Boolean gates there to really mess with rhythm patterns and the like; with the incoming gate/trig/clocking from these first modules, you can go as wild as you want with clocking and pattern generation. Then sequencers...a 4-step Ladik is first, then a Qu-bit Octone for your 8-stepper with quantizing. The idea here is that you can use the 4-stepper for transpositions of the Octone, or even as a wholly separate 4-step CV sequencer.

Then, we've got LFOs...a little Quad LFO from Doepfer, then the Noise Reap uLoaf, which is a dual LFO with some very fun crossmodulation capabilites. Right after those, there's a Tenderfoot attenuverting mixer for cooking up complex LFO results, followed by half of a Veils clone from Antumbra. Following those, then there's the Maths and a Quadrax (quad envelope) with its Qx expander placed with the intention of letting it cross-connect with the Maths to turn BOTH modules into something completely over the top as modulation sources go. And you can even break out Quadrax EGs to use "normally" while you've got one or two handy to mess with the Maths' behavior. After this, I had to cheat a bit on the layout, but managed to include Bastl's well-regarded GrandPa and its expander for sampling.

Yes, it's denser. Yes, it's more complex. And yes, it overshoots costs...but this is a serious, comprehensive experimentation modular that ALSO operates in a straightforward manner for live gigs. The idea was to take things beyond the "beeps and boops" to some really wild, tripped-out territory while still being basic enough to work just fine for that original intent. Now, the effects, I already mentioned. Seriously, get on eBay or Reverb and pick up some cheap AF outboard processing while it's still going for dimes on the dollar. Then regarding the drum sounds...just get a proper drum machine, and you'll have a syncable device which has a UI that's intended for drums and controlling them properly. And it's cheaper than trying to assemble one in the build, too.

One other thing as well...ALWAYS consider what a build like this connects to outside of its box. If you don't have a decent small stereo mixer at this point...well, now's the time to get one. Then you can properly use outboard effects, mix this thing with some drum machines, and so on. If you keep those things in mind WHILE designing a build, you'll find you can eliminate a lot of superfluous modules...which then lets you make the functionality of the build denser and more capable. As for what to get...well, this might be surprising, but I'm going to suggest hunting down an ORIGINAL Mackie 1202...the square, boxy-looking one. Yeah, it's over 25 years since these were made, but I still use mine and it works 100% even with lots of live gigs and general abuse since I got it in 1993. You can't kill them. Look for some rack multieffects such as a Yamaha SPX90 (great, gritty 14-bit effects) or a Lexicon LXP-15 ($1400+ new, now about $125), and you'll be on the right track. And NEVER neglect the power of stompboxes...I have a "library" of about 40+ of those, with many being very oddly-behaving Chinese models, all of which have something interesting and unique that they can contribute to the results. So, LITERALLY think outside this particular box, and on outward to start considering what to build up AROUND this, with the modular as a centerpiece.

EDITED Jan 9th 2021, 05:30

Hey all this is my current set up
Making all things ambient to trance & techno
I'm pretty set for making my baselines, just struggling with some melodic stuff to go with it all tips and patch ideas would be much appreciated :)

Or if you can suggest a module for some melodic stuff

Current set up,

Cool Garfield, its a fun modulator :-)

I do want an Abstract Data Octocontroller for my Doepfer monster base case in the future but its sold out for a while since that case needs a bit more modulation.

My MDLR 14u has plenty of modulation now with Mob of Emus, Kermit, and Acid Lab Technologis Maestro.

Hi Sacguy71,

Thanks, I found it now at Schneidersladen too, it's not Acidlab, it's Acid Rain Technology, fair enough :-)

Kind regards, Garfield.

Hi Amliw,

I wanted to give you one more example but pressed the Submit button already...

That Azewijn track, I made that with 12 voices and 5 voices were for the Sinfonion (but those voices were the complicated ones, well most of them, not the chords), the rest of the voices where not done via the Sinfonion. In total for that Azewijn track I used 56 modules, so I estimated somewhere between 30 and 40 modules were used by Sinfonion (for it's channels, chords & arpeggio and the whole shebang), just for that Sinfonion (and all its channels of course). Just to give you a rough idea. Not that 56 should be a leading number, it's just an example. I am sure it can be done with less modules. I use usually rather simple modules trying to make something complicated. Others might prefer to buy a more complicated module then the complexity is already in just that one module and you don't need many extra modules to come up with the same ;-) So don't hang yourself too much up on that number, pure as an example here.

Kind regards, Garfield.

Hi Amliw,

You are welcome :-)

Well, I have to be honest with you, yes that Sinfonion needs a lot for input (actually for the output, the input is still kind of okay), the more you feed it, the more fun it gets and I wasn't joking that the Sinfonion will become the black hole of your system, it really sucks up anyting that comes near to it, you just want to feed it more the get more complicated stuff out of it.

I also bought it a slightly bit too early, but there was a good deal in the regular shop I am going so I couldn't leave it there :-) What I did then was I just didn't use all the channels at the same time yet because I just didn't had enough modules to feed this beast. Then slowly when my setup started to grow I could make more use of the potential of this monster. A monster in a good way, but still a monster ;-)

Well utility modules are always good to have, with or without the Sinfonion, so you might need to look into that issue first then.

Perhaps we should change the question a little bit here from "What does the Sinfonion like to be fed with?" into "What would you like to feed the Sinfonion with?" ;-)

It's really difficult to answer that question of yours because, the Sinfonion is rather flexible and because of the many possibilities it offers you, you really can just almost throw anything to it and it will take it and do some weird or less weird things with it, which all will depends on you, on how you configure it.

But perhaps with trying to give a few examples, you might get a better idea:

For that "The Cry Of The Modular Synth" track, I "fed" the Sinfonion with an input signal... oh yes! For each channel the Sinfonion likes to have an input :-) I usually take an LFO that's flexible in use so when I change the LFO, the behaviour of the Sinfonion changes too. However for the above-mentioned track, I used the Doepfer - A-118-2 noise module and used the random output and used that as the input for channel 1. That's why the "note selection" by Sinfonion behaved a bit weird (and not in always the same kind of rhythm that you might get with an LFO) in that above track; on purpose of course :-)

On the output of each of those Sinfonion channels you could connect those to a simple or complex oscillator, totally up to you. What I didn't do was that I connected the output of a channel first to an oscillator and then started to work on that sound of the oscillator. No, I worked the other way round, it could take me days till I found a nice kind of sound (or an interesting sound), once found only then I decided the channel I wanted to relate that "nice found sound" connected to the Sinfonion. Once I got then a nice tone pattern with/from the Sinfonion then I tried to kind of finalise that sound by an extra touch with yet another filter or effect.

But in the above example of "finding a nice sound" that usually takes some efforts and might use quite some modules to come up with that nice sound.

Once that channel was then ready, I then again started to look for another nice sound that took me again some time and lots of modules and then used that in context with yet another channel on the Sinfonion. Till the Sinfonion was fully fed (or connected all the channels) and then you can start using the Sinfonion in all its glory ;-)

But you are totally right, you need quite an already large system to be able to get the Sinfonion to its rights. ACL is mentioning that also, it's rather meant for medium till large setups than for small setups.

While you saving money for the Sinfonion, look if you have enough oscillators for 3 channels, chords and a nice arpeggio (with all the supporting modules that those oscillators might need). If you find here and there a lack of modules you can start working on that and when you think you are ready, get the Sinfonion :-)

But don't get me wrong here, I don't want to push or force you into any direction or whatsoever, you just do what you like. You don't have to get a Sinfonion. For your wallet it's much better not to take a Sinfonion, not only because of the costs of the Sinfonion but also because of the costs of all the modules you sooner or later will need to keep the Sinfonion (and yourself) happy :-D

Take a few days off and think about it, for these kind of big things you shouldn't rush into it and give it a few good thoughts. Meanwhile have fun with your modular synth and a good weekend. Kind regards, Garfield.

Hi Garfield,

Yes, Detroit Modular and Patchwerks should have them for pre-order or Acid Rain website has them for direct online purchase plus videos:

https://acidraintechnology.com/products/maestro

The folks at Patchwerks recommended it to me for a super modulator device and it is super fun!

Hi Sacguy71,

Oh that's great news that you can dim those LEDs. All modules that use (bright) LEDs should have that, by kind of "Eurorack law" ;-)

Cheers, Garfield.

Hi Sacguy71,

I had a look at Schneidersladen.de here in Germany but they don't have the Maestro module of Acidlab (but they do carry this brand), pity. Any website where I can check this one out?

Thank you and kind regards, Garfield.

Hi Jingo,

Oh wow! What a beautiful sounds are you producing here?! It makes me speechless, just done with the Piston Honda (and some effects) or did that module got some more help there?

Ambient enough for me, but not long enough, this could go on and on and I would still feel it's too short :-) He, he, and a nice touch at the end of the track!

Nicely done and thanks a lot for sharing this! Kind regards, Garfield.

Hi Mowse,

Fixed here on my side as well, it works! "It works"... that's putting it so mildly, what you are doing here is superb!

It's lovely to see this time a video of you at work at your beautiful setup! I enjoyed it a lot watching you, do your magic and provide us yet another fantastic entrance into a beautiful weekend :-D

Thank you very much and kind regards, Garfield.

First off, all your thought processes do make sense to me there so that's great. I took a crack at this and had dropped it over in the other thread, so let me copy all that here. The rack I built out is half as big as the one you put together, and has a lot of the starter modules that will help you learn so that something like the SSF Tool-box isn't so intimidating. From where you're starting I think aiming for 104HP in 3U is a good step, and will let you develop your understanding and comfort without spending too much cash up front. Anyway, see below.

@Nabroc I had a minute so I took your original rack as a starting point and made some adjustments:

Notes:
1) I don't believe the Mantis has a 1U row, so I removed that, but much of what you had there I replaced in other utilities.
2) The Ginko looks like a sick module, but I'm wondering if you have to code with it? Either way I might nab one.
3) I replaced the Erica Synths clock module with a PNW (which is really fantastic).
4) Kept the Ladik LFO, it looks sweet.
5) I added a micro Rings since you mentioned wanting plucks and strings and it's a really great Euro module.
6) Swapped in a Maths plus an Intellijel Quad VCA, Maths is great, can do EG and LFOs for you as well as attenuation/attenuversion.
7) Added an FX Aid since FX in the rack go a long way.
8) Added in a Happy Nerding Stereo Mixer as it's reasonable priced, three channels should be good, and it also has a headphone out so you won't need another module.
9) A contender that didn't make it into the rack above is the 4MS Ensemble Oscillator. If you're interested I can make a version with that guy in there, but tons of experimental range and can sound sweet and sugary too.

This comes in a good bit more expensive than what you'd posted, and I'm definitely using a few popular modules here, but I think it'd be a good starting point for exploration and that empty row at the bottom will give you lots of room to expand as you learn.

Thanks Garfield,

Yes you can dim the brightness of the LEDs for the sequencer by rotating the bottom encoder of the Euclidian Circles. I am still learning it along with my Eloquencer and Metron. I bought a lot on sales so the year will give me time to learn the new modules and then create fun music! I think that with several complex sequencers and plenty of drum and effects, the options are endless.

Probably stock up on expanders for my Praga and Hexmixer at next sale and get a WMD Performance mixer at next major sale toward end of the year and more support modules like VCAs, logic, comparator and a monster Doepfer case to put on my Doepfer monster base then all good.

Hi Sacguy71,

Oh that's nice to see that Christmas tree of a Euclidian Circles in action :-) Looks like a fun-to-play module, isn't it?

Any chance to reduce the brightness of those LEDs of the Euclidian Circles; small potentiometer for that or something? How tempting this module might be but if it burns your eyes out then I might need to reconsider it...

Ha, ha, indeed fun module for using in a club, then just get a bunch of 4 or 8 of those modules put them all together in a block. Put a camera on that block of those Euclidian Circles and project that on a huge screen, for sure everyone goes bananas ;-)

Nice one and kind regards, Garfield.

Hi CyberneticOhm,

Did you guys there on planet Tryondip 59E managed to catch one of those old Russian satellites that was drifting off? ;-)

Well, come to our blue globe and we show you some more modular stuff here. Meanwhile enjoy your Russian stuff, and hope to meet you once again during one of my hyper-spaced journeys! Kind regards, Garfield.

Hi Sacguy71,

He, he, directly at the beginning that sound, I love that! Very funny and interesting sound :-)

Yes, absolutely, sequencers, percussions, the whole shebang together is great to play with! :-)

Enjoy your modular synth over the weekend and kind regards, Garfield.

Thanks Garfield,

Yeah I can make long drone next time and record it even for you all.
The module with all the buttons is my new Acid Lab Maestro super modulator! It lets you setup six channels of crazy modulation sequences and chain them together. Super fun and endless modulation possibilities. The other new modulator that I use a little bit for accents is the Rossum Mob of Emus which can be 6 LFOs or 6 oscillators and combos and more.

Hi Garfield,

Both are very different sequencers in their approach. Eloquencer has more programming functions and is closer to the Vector sequencer. WMD Metron is a different beast- it can do basic things as well as more complex sequence patterns and save them like Eloquencer and Vector but it lacks reverse and probability features of these sequencers. Once I have more time and understanding of both then I will do a jam with both at the same time for comparison. I also have a smaller new trigger sequencer the VPME Euclidian Circles which is the opposite very bright lights that rotate in various colors and fun to create weird random patterns.
Here is a quick demo:

With the Euclidian Circles, it has an internal clock but that is hard to control and I prefer clocking it from a dedicated clock source like Pamela New Workout or Mordax Data. It is super bright enough to light an entire dark room so for a club scene would be fun.
I needed a small trigger sequencer for my 6u case after moving things over to the larger cases. Probably pair a drum voice like the VPME Quad Drum synthesizer or Endorphin.es Queen of Pentacles in the future for a small mobile beat boom box hehe.

Hi Sacguy71,

Yeah, nice drone! I will not tell Troux that you are missing here almost 14 minutes ;-)
Regarding that new "rule" that a drone must be 17 minutes long ;-)

That module with a half million buttons on it, what's that exactly? I only saw the word "maestro" on it.

Thanks a lot for sharing this and kind regards, Garfield.

Hi Sacguy71,

Yeah, and finally your Eloquencer arrived :-) So do I understand you correctly that the Eloquencer is ideal for more immediate usage while the Metron is the one for the complex sequence stuff?

Well, have fun with both sequencers and I look forward in watching a video of yours where you demonstrate them both at the same time! ;-) Thank you very much for sharing and kind regards, Garfield.

Ok @troux
This is what I came up with and of course its expensive as all hell just like I feared. I tried to think of options that gave me more variety. I didn't find SSF Toolbox, so I looked it up and honestly, I wouldn't even know how to use something like that. Like I said, I'm not that versatile in the knowledge of modular. I'm pretty basic when it comes to sound design. For instance, if you look at a few of my tracks below on my YouTube channel, I am VERY basic lol hence why I have been practicing with VCV Rack, but even then I still don't know how to use things SSF Tool box, or how to even work something like Maths to its full potential.

What I DO like about this build is that, I have all the functionality of things I want and know how to use. The quad vca is super helpful, as well as the triple lfo. I added a step sequencer to replace the lame S&H I had, and found a different basic 1U module that has S&H plus a noise generator. I still have the same Clock because I wanted a visual when it comes to tempo readings, plus i just like how it looks easy to use. I kept the Dual Attenuverter from Befaco, but if I have Maths as well, I have more options to attenuate/invert/slew signals, so I'm kind of debating on if I should just keep Maths and toss the Dual Attenuverter? (shrug) and the two random ADSR's, well, I just didn't see a whole lot of options when it comes to more functionality in 2 or less modules, so I just added the two by them selves. might add 3 if I can fit it somewhere.

As for the Oscillators, I wanted two basic ones that were cheap, one waveshaper by Erica Synths because I like their products, and I want it for more gritty/nasty sounds. As for the Instruo modules, I chose the Saich for super saws because I love making plucked deadmau5 kind of synths that arpeggiate, and that one is perfect when added to the right filter. Which btw, I love the Instruo filter, so I added that as well, but if you have better options on filters, let me know. I also added a fixed filter bank for more filter options. As for effects, I just wanted a simple delay and reverb, so I chose Chrono Blob, and Springray. And last but not least, I added a sampler just for extra effects, plus I've never tried a sampler before, so why not right?

So that's what i got.
What do you think can be added, taken away, replaced, etc?
Do you think a build like this is more or less versatile?
Should I have plenty of modulation options and functionality for the things I want to do PLUS more?
Or am I way over my head trying to do much with too little or vice versa?

Hey @toodee,

thanks for your comment. Even with the factory vegetables (lol, wavetables ;)) the phmk3 is a fantastic module!
It's versatile and has broad spectrum of sound, nearly like no other wt-vco....

Best,
jingo

EDITED Jan 10th 2021, 00:11

One more note, a contender that didn't make it into the rack above is the 4MS Ensemble Oscillator. If you're interested I can make a version with that guy in there, but tons of experimental range and can sound sweet and sugary too.

@Nabroc I had a minute so I took your original rack as a starting point and made some adjustments:

Notes:
1) I don't believe the Mantis has a 1U row, so I removed that, but much of what you had there I replaced in other utilities.
2) The Ginko looks like a sick module, but I'm wondering if you have to code with it? Either way I might nab one.
3) I replaced the Erica Synths clock module with a PNW (which is really fantastic).
4) Kept the Ladik LFO, it looks sweet.
5) I added a micro Rings since you mentioned wanting plucks and strings and it's a really great Euro module.
6) Swapped in a Maths plus an Intellijel Quad VCA, Maths is great, can do EG and LFOs for you as well as attenuation/attenuversion.
7) Added an FX Aid since FX in the rack go a long way.
8) Added in a Happy Nerding Stereo Mixer as it's reasonable priced, three channels should be good, and it also has a headphone out so you won't need another module.

This comes in a good bit more expensive than what you'd posted, and I'm definitely using a few popular modules here, but I think it'd be a good starting point for exploration and that empty row at the bottom will give you lots of room to expand as you learn.

@GarfieldModular Hrm. I'll check the embed settings on that.

Fixed on my end.

EDITED Jan 8th 2021, 19:39

>
I want to conclude by reiterating this general question: given the stated aim (the ability to generate a broad palette of interesting "experiemental" and evolving timbres and textures; generative patches; loads of modulation; loads of flexibilty; both control and room for the unexpected; a unique, personalized instrument), am I actually falling short functionality-wise in the sense of failing to realize the aim? I grant that the aim could be achieved differently and with smaller modules, but that's another matter.

-- wrecksmoondee

I think each of us has a different definition for "functionality," so your approach to a unique, personalized instrument is vastly different than mine, which is great. Yes, this will likely do the things you want unless your idea of experimental evolving textures includes sounds that you would find in something like the Spherical Wavetable Navigator, Panharmonium, Rings, or other wacky digital modules. I like some stuff like that, so your plan wouldn't be quite as functional for me.
Either way, it seems like you have a good understanding of synthesis. Dive in. Buy some modules. You'll know if your plan is a good one once you start patching. Have fun with it!

And maybe in the meantime @Lugia will grace us with one of his patented Expert Builds 👀

Looking forward to seeing it!

@troux @lugia
Thank you. I'll do my best to revamp my build.

Nice, sounds like you have a good idea of where you want to go and the fact that you've been working with VCVRack is great. Now it makes sense that @Lugia gave you an "Ok" rating on your 3U row, his "Ok" being most people's "Well done" lol. So, next steps, the Mantis recommendation makes sense and seems to be the general path forward, but since you're just starting out I'd limit my initial buy to 104HP and then grow from there. If you set this rack aside (but keep it for comparison) and make a new rack with @Lugia's advice in mind, working to maximize functionality to HP, you should get pretty close and then we can review again. SSF Tool-Box is a great suggestion, and I'd also suggest you take a look at some of my favorite modules for this stuff, Kinks, Links, Cold Mac, Zadar, Batumi, Ochd, Intellijel Quad VCA, and of course Maths. Now, don't pick all of them of course, but a few would go a long way here!

@troux @Lugia
Basically, I've been practicing with VCV Rack. I use lots of modules with those exact functions. I just wanted something familiar. Not expensive. I want to be able to make kick drums, classic/experimental synth sounds, some bassy stuff, plucky synths, and that's kind of it. Its all I know really. Im not some wizard of sound, i just wanna make beep boops and be able to control it the way I know how. does that make any sense?
My goal this year was to build a modular system that I can use to create dance music that I make. I like to make house music with moogish drones, and plucked synth staccatos, strings, and bouncy bass, all that stuff. But i also want the luxury of experimental sound. Thats why i had a Sample and hold, so i could trigger it with a clock, send the signal to a atenuverter, send that signal to a quantizer, send the quantizer to a V/OCt, and generate some random tones. I dunno. just beep boop stuff.

EDITED Jan 8th 2021, 15:35

@Nabroc, we've all been there, my first rack got radically revised on here too, and in particular did get much bigger. Could you start us off by sharing what you're aiming for here? Ambient? Noise? Classic modular sounds, or maybe just to explore? That should help us send you in the right direction.

Considerable changes...here we go... ...and it's still 100% Doepfer! Whatcha think? -- Lugia

Considerable changes is a considerable understatement; it's a radically different instrument! Before I go in to why it won't be my instrument, I want to thank you for taking the time to complete this exercise--it's like crosswords or sudoku, isn't it?--as it's helpful for bouncing ideas around.

I'm gonna bang on this a bit and see if I can up the functionality in some other ways as well...even while staying 100% Dieter here. -- Lugia

So, having studied your model briefly, my impression (and this could be founded on my own inexperience) is that more has been sacrificed than has been gained.

In opting for a "larger system" (15U is nothing to sneeze at, I think) I don't think I should have to sacrifice ergonomics to the slimline series, so I've deliberately avoided those. They were designed, according to Dieter, for situations such as the little beauty cases that people like to put together. I'm happy for a few fewer, but easier to "handle" modules. And, again, I don't think much (if any) functionality is lost in my case.

Some of the more interesting VCOs that I think would have offered a more interesting timbral palette (especially the A-110-4 Thru Zero VCOs) have been lost; this deviates from the basic aim of the build, namely interesting timbral variety.

The only thing that I can see that's got an exponential response is the A-138 in the lower cab. -- Lugia

I intend to use this as the final output, plugging either a pair of headphones into here or using a longer cable with a 1/4" adaptor to go into my external passive mixer (Art SPLITMix4) which connects to the home stereo system. From what I've read online, it's common to use the A-138 as the final output. Also common, from what I've read, is people using linear VCAs almost exclusively, even for audio, contrary to the received wisdom in lin=cv, exp=audio. So I think I'm going to try my luck with linear VCAs and adapt if the need becomes obvious.

Added an external input/envelope follower for processing external sources. -- Lugia

This, instead of the FX insert that I plan to use to bring a few interesting pedals into the signal path. You mentioned you were torn about the this module, but I'm keen the keep it along with the reverb and bit crusher, which latter ought to prove interesting for cv too.

And the 2/3/4-position VC Switch is down at the end of the sequencer, where it needs to be to shift from dual 8 to single 16 CV row behavior. -- Lugia

My impression is that the A-150 Dual VCS is sufficient for shifting from dual 8 to single 16 CV row behavior on the sequencer. Is that not the case? That would free up the s/3/4-position A-151 Sequential Switch for more interesting applications.

Plus, by swapping the sequencing modules to the "flat" row, you now have the system's primary controller where it belongs. -- Lugia

I've read that the sequencer or controller may not fit comfortably in the "flat" row due to the power supply; I had originally intended to place it there until I read that. It's not a dealbreaker for me at all.

So, I want to thank you again for engaging in this exercise with me. Given my resistance to your radical revisions, I imagine it might feel like thankless work, so I want to make sure I have enough gratitude buffer in here.

I want to conclude by reiterating this general question: given the stated aim (the ability to generate a broad palette of interesting "experiemental" and evolving timbres and textures; generative patches; loads of modulation; loads of flexibilty; both control and room for the unexpected; a unique, personalized instrument), am I actually falling short functionality-wise in the sense of failing to realize the aim? I grant that the aim could be achieved differently and with smaller modules, but that's another matter.

Cheers Lugia!

Damn .. way to rip my heart out and feed it to me...

But I guess you're right. I'm new to this stuff. I was just going for "affordable". I don't expect to get it right the first time. I thought building a system was easy and that something like this would work together nicely. I'm truly disappointed and now I feel stupid. Will you help me?

EDITED Jan 8th 2021, 14:41

Hey, pretty nice tune right there !

Love my PHmk3, that thing is bonkers, sounds kinda plain but I really love those faders, genius to place them there, makes the module really playable once you get to know the WT (or come with your own). Its great set of features, large sonic palette on offer and fantastic interface design makes it well worth the asking price IMHO.

^^ This is definitely even sweeter!

Thank you all for your fast replies!

Seems like the Sinfonion has won and I have to save some money in the next months..
Even though the NDLR also looks interesting, I didnt knew about that one, thanks! @Lugia

@GarfieldModular
Thank you for your detailed description! Definitely made me even more interested in that module and sure I know that the price has it reasons and that the sinfonion can be hell of a machine in the right system.
But this is also still one point that makes me feel sceptical about buying the sinfonion.

I've seen another post somewhere, where also somebody said that you will need a bunch of other modules before you can use the full potential of the Sinfonion.
I've just started one year ago and my rack is still a rather small one.
So what exactly does the sinfonion like to be fed with?
When I use the polyphonic mode of my Qu-bit Chord I have 6 voices/oscillators in total.
Unfortunately I don't really have a lot of utility modules so far.
In general my system is a rather simple one and I'm afraid that the sinfonion is too "big" for a system like that.

I really like Azewijn, you got some interesting sounds in that!
And about the woman in the video, I will keep an eye out, maybe I will find a creepy abandoned building with a nice system in it one day :-)

Thank you all again!

+1 sharing from me - https://www.facebook.com/yalivec/posts/3804352696269856
Thanks for the great work!

Good to hear from you Garfield,
Glad you enjoyed dEON.
Unfortunately is now quite as advanced as yours on Mother Earth. Most of our equipment is 1950s Soviet Bakelite transistor valve doo wop...