I've bought the Sosumi and the Obsidian (I'd have bought the Opal, but I don't have anymore space). Anyhow, most of what you show and explain, in the video and manual, is clear. However, maybe you can explain the attunverters a bit more clearly? In the video (@0.56) you say the attenuverters and cross modualtion change amount and direction. So, in the video, when you turn the green's control towards minus what is happening? We see both waves changing, but how is each LFO being influenced? In the YT example, when the attenuverter is turned to minus, is it 'less influenced' by LFO 2, or is it 'influencing less' LFO 2? Or, maybe something else?

Secondly, you say that whilst nothing is plugged into the CV control, the LFOs cross modulate. I seem to remember in the manual you say if you wish to stop the cross modulation you plug a dummy cable into the CV (or another LFO/VCO). What happens if you plug something into just one of the CV controls, does the unplugged LFO still cross modulate - with the one that is being CV controlled?

Lastly, a little design suggestion - if you update - please make the rack holes oblong (not round) so they fit more easily in a rack. The spacing horizontally is a little tight for some patch cables. Maybe have your jack inputs slightly offset per row - not unlike a saw wave! Example (top row): sym OK, CV1 up slightly, CV2 ok, sym up slightly. The spacing vertically is perfect.

I hope all that makes sense?

Anyhow, the Obsidian is really interesting to use, fantastic work. You could say it's 8 complex LFOs running at two speeds, which is amzing in such a small module. The Sosumi is excellent too, but there's less to understand on that module (it just sounds). Great work, bravo.

Hi Garfield, thanks for the info.

I have indeed seen some of the videos featuring the DCO, the VCF/VCA and the have a very interesting Dual LFO too now (https://sound-force.nl/?page_id=4428), which I'm hesitating on buying to replace my Doepfer Quad LFO module - I think it's also in kit form.

As for the Dual Filter, DivKid does a long review, which is great. However, what I was interested to discover is some hands on testimonies from those who spend their hard earned cash on the module, to find out what other people think.

Thanks anyway.

I keep seeing the Soundforce Dual Filter (https://www.modulargrid.net/e/soundforce-dual-filter) in various racks and videos and would love to hear from people using it. I keep hesitating about buying one, after all price wise it looks amazing. So, any thoughts about this dual filter would be really useful - in helping make a decision one way or the other.

Thanks in advance.

You could get two Antumbra DVCAs and chain them together with the jumpers on the back, that's Veils in 8hp
-- milkmilklemonade

Nice idea. If you chain them, since they'd be 4 VCAs does that make them cascade to the next input (etc)?

I'm looking at various options for Quad VCAs (or similar VCAs in 8hp or under - as an example Happy Nerding's 3 x VCA). Anyhow, I saw the Malekko Quad VCA (https://www.modulargrid.net/e/malekko-heavy-industry-quad-vca-black-panel) which looks really interesting but I can't seem to find much feedback from people about this module. The only thing that comes up is that Malekko, as a company, isn't very user friendly in replying to peoples mails.

So, if you see this thread, and have the module, maybe you can tell me what you think?

Thanks in advance.

p.s. I forgot to say, the black panel isn't of any importance - can be silver.

I'd consider going with a tesseract modular tex-mix (reasonably priced and expandable) instead of the cosmix - and some blind panels - and put the money you save towards the next case - then there's no issue with only having a few hp to fill... you'll have lots of space, so can get whatever modules you want no matter the size... at least for a while!
-- JimHowell1970

Nice, you reminded me of the Tex-Mix, thanks, I had that on a list from Mod Wiggler, but had forgotten. As for the idea of leaving the rest empty, I'll definitely think about that, although to a certain extent I'm hoping to be portable (not too big/many cases).

Just for the info, I have an empty (if you can believe it) 104hp case - with power supply etc - which was the first case I bought and built/filled.

Hi joesh. What exactly are you hoping to accomplish? What sort of music are you making? Do you have any other external gear?
-- farkas

Yes, sorry I forgot to say - off screen - there's a Deluge for triggering and sequencing, a Pittsburgh Mod SV-1b, a 0-Coast and also a DS Rev2 which I can trigger via midi using the Deluge.

As to what do I hope to accomplish, the answer is 'I don't know'. Everything I do tends to be improvised, I guess a little along the lines of someone like Robert Aiki Aubrey Lowe (if that doesn't sound to pretentious on my part) who just plugs in and works something out and hopes to mould and sculpt it into a piece with form. As for what does it sound like, here's a Soundcloud link if you fancy having a listen: https://soundcloud.com/joehigham

please post a link to the actual rack - copy and paste the url
-- JimHowell1970

Sorry Jim, I posted the jpg link without looking.

I'm scratching my head as to how best fill the last 40hp - yes that seems a lot, but ....

Firstly, as you'll see in my rack I'm struggling with the end of chain, so I have (in my opinion) no choice but to add a mixer, and as you'll notice (bottom right) I'm planning in the next days to take the plunge and add what seems like the best option price/space/ins/outs/etc with the Cosmix. However, that still leaves 24hp.

So, as you'll see I've added a Soundforce Dual Filter, a VCA, and a Disting EX as a possibility. I'd be interested to know if people have some other 'combinations' they'd like to suggest for the 24hp? I've never had a Distings EX, but I thought this could be (like the Ornament and Crime, Temps Utile or the Twin Waves) a sort of Swiss Army Knife and a really good addition to the rack in a small space. It will provide me with many possibilities such as filters, VCAs, a sample player (very useful), etc. Maybe others will disagree, and have alternative suggestions I hope?

As for the final two pieces (everything is on the bottom right), you'll see that I went for the option of the Dual Filter (because it has plenty of possibilities, and I enjoyed DivKids video), and the MRG VCA is just there, because at the time I was doing this I thought another VCA might be useful.

So, I'd love some help in trying to find a good and useful combination to compliment the rest of my rack - which i'm pretty happy with - changes can always be made, as we all know.

Here's my rack for you to get a better idea visually of what I'm talking about (all the modules I mention are on the bottom right):
ModularGrid Rack

Thanks in advance.

Agree, love going down the rabbit hole with O&C. Its actually teaching me MANY different topics in the modular world in one small module...but it is frustrating that something this simple isn't available, at least not at this time :) I have posted to the ModWiggler O&C thread and hopefully a developer will pick up on the feature and add it in at some point.

-- jb61264

Good idea, I hadn't thought about that.

Same thing (in a way) with Temps Utile, which does almost everything Pam's New Workout does, except that amazingly useful .... simple On/Off button! If they could just add that into the firmware, it would be a no brainer with TU costing half the price of PNW.

Just to chip in, I have O&C (I'm also running the original firmware), and as I far as I know, what you want to do isn't possible - asking O&C to re-trigger itself.

Actually, it's one of the oddest things about O&C. It's, as some say, the Swiss army knife of modular, but some of the most obvious things you'd love it to do .... it doesn't! You can freeze sequences, alter them on the fly either yourself or via algorithms, and more. Yet to have a simple possibility to clock or trigger itself, and in some of the modes a possibility to stop or start, it doesn't do. However, it's a brilliant module, and as you already said 'diving down the rabbit hole of O&C is much fun, and often very productive.

Thread: Other VCAs

I have the 4ms Ensemble Oscillator and love it. [...]. You could also go with a 4ms Listen Four or Four Quarters(depending on what outputs you want) and it will replace your output module and allow for 2 panable mono channels and 2 full stereo channels of input as well as a headphone out and not take up too much space.
-- xnax

That's brilliant, thanks for the suggestions. In fact I think if I swapped out the Befaco OUT V3 for the Four Quarters, and a 2hp Mix, I'd have a more workable set up (mixing wise).

As for the 4ms Ensemble Oscillator, I'm mulling that one over, but it looks very tempting indeed!

Thanks for the tip(s).

Thread: Other VCAs

Sounds and looks really interesting.

Actually, the fun of starting a thread is all the various directions it sends you. I have to say, after looking at these posts, I realise I seriously need a mixer module (of some sort), and secondly on the pros and cons of Frap Tools side, apart from the Tiptop/Buchla 258t, I'm quite curious to discover the 4ms Ensemble Oscillator, which from watching a few demos I wonder if I might get more mileage out of that in the long run - hmm, decisions, decisions!

Anyhow, thanks again.

Thread: Other VCAs

I'd add a matrix mixer, fx aid xl and something that can do offsets and inversion (3*MIA, perhaps) [...] - I have multiple problems with the frap tools modules, but that's just me - although I'm sure they are great... I think bresno is way too big for a case this size - as there's not enough room left over for modules to support it - add another row, though and it'd be substantially better

-- JimHowell1970

Hey Jim, big thanks for the case update, that's really helpful, especially as I can see it in action with your rack image, brilliant. The WMD Tool-Box looks really interesting, I hadn't thought of that. In fact due to this I'm going to have a much deeper look at the WMD modules, they look as though they have a very nice range indeed. And, oddly enough, I had the Happy Nerding modules in my original 'idea' when first starting. Somehow, they got forgotten along the way, so thanks for the reminder. Lastly, I'm glad the In the Trees A/B Mixer's still in there, I also thought that it looked basic, but so useful.

So, just to add a comment, the Brenso is (as I said) just an idea at present, so indeed, as Lugia says, if I want to go down that path for less money, I could try out the Tiptop/Buchla 258t. Of course, if it can do the same thing for a third of the price I'd be very happy - as many would. Another couple of possibilities which look interesting (I think) are the Gravitational Waves by Void Modular, and the Intellijel Rubicon 2, or something else (not quite the same, but) which looks very versatile the 4ms Ensemble Oscillator.

As for another row ... I've got that covered, I've also got a 104hp skiff that's empty (or used as needed). So, I could expand even more at a later date.

As for the symbols and layout of Frap Tools discussion, I don't really see why people get so wound-up about them. FT are trying to do their own thing, like plenty of other makers out there - who BTW also have wacky images and odd layouts. I bought the Falistri due to recommendations here, and have to say I love it. Once you see how they've laid it out, it's very very easy to use, and logical. The quality of the build of their stuff (from what I've seen) is very good.

Lastly (@Lugia), don't worry about the CWEJMAN VCA-4MX, I just thought it looked interesting and it clearly is, but too expensive, which you mentioned on another thread (I think). However, luckily everyone here who's answered my questions, has come up with some alternative solutions which gives me plenty of ideas/solutions as where to move next on my set-up.

Very big thanks to all.

Thread: Other VCAs

Really good advice, thanks you both. I should say that I maybe gave the wrong impression - that I was getting rid of the Quad VCA. If so, I didn't mean that, I love the Quad VCA, it gets used all the time.

Good idea for the 2HP Mix, I hadn't thought about that (I imagine you mean this one: https://www.modulargrid.net/e/2hp-mix). The linear VCAs also seem a good idea too.

Just to put you in the picture, here's my rack at present. The modules on the bottom right are things I'm thinking over (you'll see all the VCAs and mixer bits + the Brenso which I'm hesitating about). What you can't see is a Pittsburgh SV-1B, a Make Noise 0-Coast, and a Synthstrom Deluge, which I use for drums, or sequencing, or triggering the bitbox, etc.

ModularGrid Rack

So, now you see my hand of cards, you can maybe make other suggestions too!

Thanks in advance.

Thread: Other VCAs

Brilliant, thanks Jim that's interesting, I'll think all that over and try to replan my VCA ideas.

BTW, another couple of things I came up with are the Bastl QUATTRO FIGARO, shame it's also discontinued, but maybe not impossible to find, and I wondered if the WMD triple bipolar VCA could be interesting and work for me?

Thread: Other VCAs

The WMD is easy to find here - in Europe. I see it's only 2 channels though, so that's bad luck, and, buying two would just be the same as buying one Cwejman (I guess).

Strange the Cwejman's are so expensive, people talk about them in YT videos, but always add in that they are very expensive. From what I understand, the quality is incredible, but does that mean Intellijels are rubbish because they're cheaper, I think not. Or, are the Cwejman just made in very small batches maybe?

As for "keep the quad (or swap it out for a veils) and add a simple 4 channel mixer", sounds not so bad, but in the end you might as well just buy the Cwejman, which would come to the same price or cheaper anyhow.

Thanks for the suggestion(s).

Thread: Other VCAs

When commenting on the Intellijel Quad VCA, in another thread, I was suggesting the Doepfer A-135-2. However, as Lugia quickly pointed out it's DC coupled, and linear.

So, maybe you have some/a suggestion(s) for alternative VCA modules that have similar functionality to the A-135-2's 'Selected' and 'All' outputs? I love using the Quad VCA, but I'm often frustrated when using it as a mixer, which as each output is normalled to the mix input of the adjacent one, you end up 'cutting' your signal chain when being sent to the 4th out - if you see what I mean.

... or maybe I should just get a dedicated mixer module instead?

BTW, a couple of ideas I had were: WMD MULTIMODE VCA, and the CWEJMAN VCA-4MX QUAD VCA MIXER.

Any suggestions or thoughts?


Good call, I hadn't thought of that. However, if I understand what you're saying, so is (as an example) Veils DC-coupled, both ins and outs. Is that really such a problem?

Just to confirm a few ideas that have already been mentioned.

If you want something that has a lot of possibilities, you should definitely get Ornament and Crime. It does so many things from sequencing, LFOs, and much more. You can change the firmware to make it (using Teensy) into a drum/rhythm module even.

Secondly, as @Ronin1973 mentions, a VCA could be useful in many situations. I have a Intellijel Quad VCA and indeed it gets used a lot. However, I noticed that Doepfer have what looks to be an even more (useful) VCA with the A-135-2. Although I don't have this (yet) it looks as though it has a more interesting set up. It has attenuators, like the Quad VCA, but more interesting two extra mix outputs, 'Selected' (takes the signals from Inputs, provided they've not been diverted via an Output) and 'All' (all signals going to the Inputs). This can/could be particularly useful, and the Quad VCA doesn't have this possibility.

It's also a lot cheaper too.


I picked up Ornament and Crime a few weeks ago and am really enjoying it. This made me wonder about Temps Utile, and so I looked at some comments/threads on Mod Wiggler to see what people said. Interestingly, most of the discussions dated back to 2017 when Pam's Workout was only just being updated to the 'New' version.

So, I'm curious to hear some thoughts on Pam's New Workout and/or Temps Utile in 2021. Do people think T_U has become a bit redundant since Pam's Workout became Pamela's New Workout (a few years back), or has there been some developments in the Temps Utile firmware that still make it not only a competitor, but a good alternative (or complementary) - even though it has less outs, but then again it's cheaper.

Thanks in advance.

Since many people ask questions and ask for suggestions, I sometimes wonder what solution(s) they ended up chosing. So, I thought I'd finish this post with the results of my questions here and on Mod Wriggler, and show people what I came up with.

Firstly, thanks for all the suggestions, as you'll see below, I did finally put together my first rack. I decided to stay with the 104HP, as a way of focusing on what to pick for modules - although that will change/expand in the future (as we all know).

I decided to go/try the no Maths route, after all what you've never had you can't miss. I went with the Quadrax and a Falistri. They're both very interesting modules and I'm amazed at what you can do with them. I also dropped Stages and ALM Pam's New Workout due to availability (at the beginning). Since a friend of mine talked about Ornament and Crime, I wondered if it could be an alternative to Pam's, which when I looked into it, it seemed a more interesting choice, with many more possibilities/uses - Robin Rimbaud called it a Swiss Army knife of modular.

Lastly, most of the modules were chosen because of their multi functions. As an example, the Quadrax can do so many different things, and the Joranalogue Filter 8 is quite exceptional in being a filter, a VCO, LFO, a slew generator, etc.

Anyhow, here's the solution that I came up with - I should add once again, I have a Pittsburgh Mod. SV-1b, Make Noise 0-coast and a Synthstrom Deluge which I use to work with this rack.

ModularGrid Rack

Any comments and/or suggestions welcome as always.

Thanks everyone, brilliant suggestions and advice. It looks as though I need to take a look over Stages, Maths and Falistri, and then make a choice - or even buy two of those!

Big thanks for the input everyone.

Thanks Jim, I'll check that out, sounds an interesting idea - also glad to here/read that Make Noise is re shipping again. There seemed to be a real slow down from them over the past year due to the pandemic (I guess).

Hey joesh,
I wanted to share my opinion on Stages vs Maths, since that's a decision I also made not that long ago.
I went with Stages and it's a lovely module. however I also have an additional Analog function Generator in my Rack. [...]. It's weird to describe but it really drools with the Mutable Instruments way of doing stuff.
I love it, but you might not.

All the Best
-- Cangore

Hi Chris, that's great thanks.

I guess when it comes to Maths vs Alternative, it seems I'll probably have to make a decision, and then just try it. As most people, it's not really the idea of not having Maths, more the idea of trying something else. I have to admit Falistri looks very interesting from what I've seen when watching reviews and demos. However, apart from Mod Wiggler discussions, which some seem very positive concerning Stages, I was intrigued to understand that you can loop your 6 waves to use as LFOs, or envelopes, and more (it seems). In comparison Falistri only has 2 loop-able possibilities (please correct me if I'm wrong)? But, on the other hand, there seems to be other features which make Falistri very tempting.

Anyhow, I guess the search goes on for what fits best where. So, I'll probably make a plunge next week and order some - or most of the modules - up on the rack and see how it works out. I just have to decide on a suitable case, preferably powered, and then press ..... buy!

I thought this review/tutorial (which I'm sure you all know) seemed to put the alternative Maths problem into context:

If the criteria for the build is that it needs to be powered and portable, I would recommend looking at a Tiptop Mantis.
-- Lugia

Thanks Luigi, that's quite a coincidence, I had indeed looked at the TipTop cases - I'd seen someone talking about them somewhere, I'll definitely look into that as a serious possibility.

Of the modules mentioned, I have A-145-4, Quad VCA, 3xMIA, Pam's, and the Out v3, and like them all. One nice feature of the Out is the cue input, which lets you audition sounds being constructed without repatching. I also have 3xVCA, and should have considered Veils as a Quad VCA alternative. As a Maths alternative, I was considering the Cosmotronic Delta-V (which is small) before I went with Falistri. I really like Falistri, but I wanted more than two envelopes, and to be able to use it as one or two oscillators. So I added Quadrax, which is packed with functionality. You are tight on space, so some careful planning is needed, and then availability will be an issue...
-- plragde

Thanks plragde. The space is indeed tight, but at present my thinking is to make it compact, but with interesting functionality, and keeping the price a little under control too.

In the meanwhile, I've started sketching another rack with some of these suggestions in it. I'm looking at the Falistri at present, which looks interesting - when I get a chance to see how it works.

Hi all,

Sorry to just on to somebody else's thread, but a new user cannot create a new one... (?!)

Anyway, total noob with modular, although I know a little about synthesis, waveforms etc. I starting with literally nothing, but I want a small simple setup to mess with some Berlin style riffs, think Rubycon, Tangram etc. I've just got a Behringer 960 on the way to handle the sequencing, I'll get a small case and power.... I need advice on other modules now. I have a Poly D that the 960 could drive for the moment, but I'd like to build the rack up to be self sufficient. It doesn't need to do an awful lot really, a couple of oscillators should be enough for now. Some delay, a filter of course. What else will I need? Midi conversion, so I can use a regular controller perhaps? I will learn more of course when I plug in and start to mess, but right now, it's all a bit overfacing to say the least.

All advice, examples etc is very much appreciated. Budget is fairly tight at the moment, as much as possible I'd rather keep things cheap and cheerful for the moment and then upgrade as I grow with it.

Many thanks in advance :)
-- seanet

If I was you, I'd start by going to the My Modular page and try to build something there, then post it here. This way people can help. However, if you ask questions on other people's threads, you'll probably not get the answers you're looking for.

Lastly, one thing you could do to get an idea of where to start (which basic modules to buy etc), you could

  1. Take a look at (as an example) an all in one set up, just to see what they have in there. Try Wavefonix w314 to see what Chris has put into his set-up (https://www.wavefonix.com/product-page/w314-modular-synthesizer).
  2. Watch one of the many YouTube channels which talk about getting started. Some that are friendly and useful are maybe Molten Modular, or Starsky Carr. There's many more, but those are just some suggestions.

Good luck!

Yes, the Quad VCA is a good choice. It has both linear and exponential response curves (for cv and audio, respectively). A lot of folks here like MI Veils for a quad VCA. Similar module in 10hp.
-- farkas

Thanks, just looked Veils over, indeed, it seems a nice alternative - and I see what you mean for the space too.

What's interesting here (the forum), is that you get some nice alternative suggestions, which when you're ordering stuff, can be a very useful if modules are out of stock or simply discontinued.

Firstly, thanks Farkas, that's already helpful. Sorry I forgot to put the rack in, but I for some reason I just forgot to add that in. I'm not sure if it's correct (my link), as I see all the white space of a jpg. If I've missed something on 'my modular' page, maybe you can explain how I should of shown my rack?

Anyhow, I just had a quick look at Bends, and indeed it looks interesting. I'll leave the 3xMIA in the set-up for the moment, just so people can comment. But I have you suggestion 'chalked' up for consideration once I get a few more comments.

BTW, I imagine, from your remark about the VCA, that the Intelijel Quad VCA is a good idea.

Thanks again.


I'd like to get some feedback on my 'proposed' rack. Just to give you some explanations of what I'm thinking of doing so that you can see my logic, I should first point out that I also have a few bits of gear which aren't shown here. I already have a 'Pittsburgh Mod. Lifeforms SV-1b', a 'Make Noise 0-coast' and a Synthstrom Deluge, which I use as a sequencer, send CV/Gate etc, when needed. There's a few other things I use, but these are the three bits which I'll be linking to the rack.

Although my main interest is sound manipulation - hence the 1010 Bitbox Micro - I'll also be making use of the rack for plain melodic stuff using the oscillators from the SV-1b, etc.

One important thing first, is that I hesitate between MI's Stages and a Make Noise Maths. I've read good things about Stages, and using it on VCV Rack does show interesting multiple functions (an envelope, an LFO, and even a limited sequencer). Also, Maths seems to be permanently out of stock whenever I look (I'm in Europe), which doesn't help. As for the other modules I've chosen, here's a few comments (my logic):

  • Multiple - MI Links: I thought the polyvalent uses of this multiple could cover many situations.
  • LFO - Doepfer A-145-4: Not too expensive, takes up little space, and seems quite adaptable/functional.
  • Attenuverter/Mixer /etc - 3x MIA: seems to do a lot, and covers both CV and audio as well.
  • VCA - Quad VCA: This looks interesting, but maybe I should choose between the 3x MIA or this, or will both work well together?
  • Clock - Pamela's NEW Workout: seems the most interesting option for a clock, and many other uses too.
  • Out - Befaco's OUT V3: Well, I just chose this because I saw SynthDad using it in a video, and since I need an out, why not, although maybe there's better (or cheaper) options? I also thought the headphone out could be very useful whilst preparing manipulated sounds - before playing them live.

So, if I could have some feedback, I'd be really grateful. What have I doubled that's not useful, and naturally, what have I forgotten to make the whole thing work (I plan to buy a case with power - ex: an Eowave). And lastly, although - as you all know - it would be possible just to keep filling a rack until you have everything, I'd like to keep this portable, and expand it later, if needed. After all, one can never have too many cases!

Thanks in advance - joesh

Whoops: ModularGrid Rack