MOOG + MOOD Minimal Ambient/Noise-House Machine(?)

I want to make crushing, dissonant, and choatic sounds to dance to in a rack designed for live performances on somewhat of a budget. Think Tim Hecker, Fuck Buttons, The Knife, Wolf Eyes.

I recently bought a MOOG Mavis to test the eurorrack waters and got inspired to take the plunge. Given my love for this thing, I'm planning to build the rest of my system around it, but within some serious constraints. I want this to be a fairly minimal system for financial and simplicity reasons, so I'm planning to get a 4u palette case (not negotiable) within which the Mavis will initially sit. I will probably remove the Mavis down the line to make space for other modules and just patch it back into the rack from the side, but this is where I'd like it to initially be.

Considering the constraints, I've included a pedal i/o to connect it with what will most likely be a MOOD effects pedal for some thicc reverb and looping potential. https://www.chasebliss.com/mood-mkii I've also secured a deal for a BIA and Noise Tools 1U from Craig's. Figured Steppy is a must-have for this system too, so the whole bottom rack is kind of locked in (ignoring the Mavis probably vacating).

I've never built a system before and I still don't understand a lot of the utility of different components utilities like VCAs, although I hear they're pretty hot. That being said, I'm really looking for feedback about how this system could work as designed, what could/should be changed, and what the longer term potential is with whatever components that might eventually backfill the MOOG's 44hp. Ideally though, I'd like to create some music like I described with the Mavis in place for now, but please let me know if that's unrealistic. Thank you!

Hi,
To begin with, you will need some modulation sources. BIA needs a lot of modulation to shine. You could replace Steppy (it only generates triggers) with a NE Mimetic digitalis type sequencer (triggers and CV), which fits very well with BIA
https://www.modulargrid.net/e/noise-engineering-mimetic-digitalis-black
Pam's also gives you many trigger/modulation options.
https://www.modulargrid.net/e/alm-busy-circuits-alm017-pamela-s-new-workout.
With the limited space you have, and given that the two voices are "complete" in themselves, perhaps you would not need a filter, but I would add some effects module (delay / reverb) and the leftover space some VCA, mixer for CV ....but I would definitely start with a bigger case.

to add to what @ferranadsr has said

I recently bought a MOOG Mavis to test the eurorrack waters and got inspired to take the plunge. Given my love for this thing, I'm planning to build the rest of my system around it, but within some serious constraints. I want this to be a fairly minimal system for financial and simplicity reasons, so I'm planning to get a 4u palette case (not negotiable)

I think this is utter folly, why? - see below - but if you absolutely must only have 4u - then get the biggest version there is - the 104hp... personally I'd suggest bigger, still... you will need it eventually and eventually is often much sooner than you think... remember, there is absolutely no need whatsover to fill a case - there are always blank panels and there are always cereal boxes (or similar) that can substitute for blank panels... the tiny cases are great for influencers to showcase individual modules with limited patching options and they're great as satellite, mission specific cases - sequencer, control surface etc, but as main synth cases - not so much...

Considering the constraints, I've included a pedal i/o to connect it with what will most likely be a MOOD effects pedal for some thicc reverb and looping potential. https://www.chasebliss.com/mood-mkii I've also secured a deal for a BIA and Noise Tools 1U from Craig's. Figured Steppy is a must-have for this system too, so the whole bottom rack is kind of locked in (ignoring the Mavis probably vacating).

if you wan BIA to do all your percussion for you - ie you want to use it as a percussion factory - I seriously recommend a jasmine and olive traffic module - it will allow you to program changes in the sounds of BIA...

I'm not convinced steppy is the going to do exactly what you want - please describe exactly what you envisage doing with steppy... it generates triggers - 4 of them, with only 2 places to send them...

BIA - I don't own one, but just from looking at it I can tell, that it massively benefits from modulation, something you don't have a lot of (other than some random from noise tools)... and modulation sources benefit from attenuation, attenuversion/offset... that you don't have any of if you are using the duatt as a mixer, which you will be - as you don't have any other mixer in the rack...

the effect pedal is stereo, yet you can only send/return a mono signal... is this a constraint you find acceptable? if not the you need a different interface and a way to take your mono sound sources and place them in the stereo field...

I've never built a system before and I still don't understand a lot of the utility of different components utilities like VCAs, although I hear they're pretty hot. That being said, I'm really looking for feedback about how this system could work as designed, what could/should be changed, and what the longer term potential is with whatever components that might eventually backfill the MOOG's 44hp. Ideally though, I'd like to create some music like I described with the Mavis in place for now, but please let me know if that's unrealistic. Thank you!
-- natural_causes

Seriously I'd do some research on the fundamentals of synthesis before commiting any money... ie what's a VCA, what's a filter, what's a wavefolder etc etc - the pinned topics at the top of the moduwiggler 1u& 3u subforum are a very good place to start...

NOW The Hard Part:

I don't think that you're going to be able to achieve what you want from these modules... I'm assuming that you're going to want to use the BIA as a one stop percussion factory... ok no problem - as long as you have something to change the 'program' on BIA in a purposeful way... but you haven't - see my recommendation of the Traffic module above (this is effectively what it's designed for - you can program in voltage changes that allow you to get repeatable prgoram changes on modules that can benefit from it BIA and Plaits, for instance)...

your mixing solution is poor... how are you going to mix the outputs of the BIA, the Mavis AND the pedal return... what are you going to send to the pedal, just the Mavis? just the BIA? and how are you going to listen? just on headphones or a 'laptop expansion speaker'? are you happy with mono only? see above for - modulation that needs attenuating...

Some further wisdom - from years of experience with modulars - buy a much bigger case than you think you'll need to start with... it will save you money in the long run... larger cases are cheaper per hp than tiny cases... you will get GAS & you will need it... not only this, but just taking the example of the Traffic module... there are modules you think you want and there are modules that you haven't even started to think about that you will need in order to get the most out of the modules you think you want... and to some extent the modules you want can end up being miserable without the ones you need...

take a look at my signature... think about it, think about it deeply... it's years of experience condensed into a few words... especially the formula... which is a quick guide to how to get the most versatility in patching, from the least cash...

ignore the case size for now and spend some time working out what you think you'll want (ie more than just a single voice and a percussion factory) in say a years, maybe twos, time and what you will need in order to actually get the modules to work together & then get that sanity checked... & then find and buy - or build the case on that including at least 20-30% expansion room (you will need it - estimate power consumption for unfilled space at 10mA per rail per hp) and then allow 25-30% for overhead - to work out how much power you actually need... and then get a case that fulfills those needs - hp and power...

in other words build the case around the modules that you think you will want and those that you will need in order to support them - don't try cramming modules into a tiny case - ergonomics will be shit and/or functionality will be poor - leading to a miserable experience... which can only be remedied by either spending money or selling up!

a very large proportion of people who ignore this advice buy another, bigger case within 6-12 months of buying their 1st case...

this is exactly what I did... I started with a tiny case (6u/72hp) & within 6 months it was full so I bought another bigger case, and then a few months later I started building a case - it was shoddy and consisted of planks of wood held together by blank panels and modules, but it worked - & I got better at building cases... years later I have over 1800hp of cases, mostly filled... but if I'd bought the bigger case to start with I think there's a good chance I wouldn't have gone past that - except for the discovery of video modules - which is another story entirely

Now I'm not suggesting that you spend your life savings in one go - I'm suggesting that you think ahead a bit, probably slightly. further ahead than next week or next month though... if you desperately want a BIA buy it now... they were recently discontinued, due to the chips used in them being end of lifed...

but do realise that in starting this you are probably going to be commiting a large portion of your disposable income for years to come to this - ie your current methods of entertainment: beer, drugs, transvestite hookers, cult memberships (whatever, I don't care & neither should you - they're only examples) will take a backseat... that 100 (insert local currency) is a module, not n beers, for example!!

EDITED Sep 15th 2023, 10:00

To begin with, you will need some modulation sources. BIA needs a lot of modulation to shine. You could replace Steppy (it only generates triggers) with a NE Mimetic digitalis type sequencer (triggers and CV), which fits very well with BIA
https://www.modulargrid.net/e/noise-engineering-mimetic-digitalis-black
Pam's also gives you many trigger/modulation options.
https://www.modulargrid.net/e/alm-busy-circuits-alm017-pamela-s-new-workout.
With the limited space you have, and given that the two voices are "complete" in themselves, perhaps you would not need a filter, but I would add some effects module (delay / reverb) and the leftover space some VCA, mixer for CV ....but I would definitely start with a bigger case.

-- ferranadsr

I agree with all of this. You will want and need a bigger case before you know it. To get the most out of any module, you will find the need for supporting modules. Supporting modules take up space. Imagine all of the functions in a fixed architecture synth or groovebox and then realize that you will need a lot of those functions, sometimes multiple copies of each function. Bigger case than you think you need is pretty much rule #1 in modular land.
Tweaking by hand is fun, but you only have two hands. BIA will require about six hands to get interesting grooves happening. I used the Voltage Block to get cool stuff happening when I had BIA. That's 8 lanes of sequenced modulation in 20hp, not to mention a gate source...
How will you be mixing? Do you want to automate volume and panning? Mixers, VCAs, and more modulation sources can help with this.
Unfortunately, minimal systems usually offer minimal results. The modular world will quickly eat up a lot of space and your bank account, so make sure you understand each part of what you're getting into. What is it that a tiny incomplete eurorack is offering that a groovebox with sequencer or fixed architecture synth doesn't offer?
Have fun and good luck!

*Edit - Just saw that Jim posted at the same time I did. I agree with all of Jim's thoughts regarding small racks.

EDITED Sep 15th 2023, 10:22

*Edit - Just saw that Jim posted at the same time I did. I agree with all of Jim's thoughts regarding small racks.

hahahahaha.... great minds etc....

I agree with all of this. You will want and need a bigger case before you know it. To get the most out of any module, you will find the need for supporting modules. Supporting modules take up space. Imagine all of the functions in a fixed architecture synth or groovebox and then realize that you will need a lot of those functions, sometimes multiple copies of each function. Bigger case than you think you need is pretty much rule #1 in modular land.

I'd go so far as to say that in lots of ways the supporting modules, modulation sources and utilities, are actually the most important modules - as they are how you gain control over the other modules!!!

Tweaking by hand is fun, but you only have two hands. BIA will require about six hands to get interesting grooves happening.

and lightening fast reactions - so you can change from kick to snare to whatever, on each beat - exhausting just thinking about it!!!!

I used the Voltage Block to get cool stuff happening when I had BIA. That's 8 lanes of sequenced modulation in 20hp, not to mention a gate source...

exactly!

How will you be mixing? Do you want to automate volume and panning? Mixers, VCAs, and more modulation sources can help with this.

and again... exactly!

Unfortunately, minimal systems usually offer minimal results. The modular world will quickly eat up a lot of space and your bank account, so make sure you understand each part of what you're getting into. What is it that a tiny incomplete eurorack is offering that a groovebox with sequencer or fixed architecture synth doesn't offer?
Have fun and good luck!

-- farkas

in other words: not to put you off, but much more research, thought and budget is almost definitely required before considering this pusuit!

This might be a case where semi-modular is the better option, especially if budget and size are of primary concern. What about the Moog DFAM? It's not going to give you all of the BIA sounds, but does a lot that BIA doesn't. More hands-on, still within the Moog ecosystem since you enjoy Mavis, and it's a techno beast. You could always add a small-ish modulation/effects rack to compliment the Moogs...
Something to consider.

Ok, I want to start by saying that, as a noobie, I appreciate all of the perspective, especially on how to get the most out of the voice modules like the Mavis and BIA, as well as the helpful resources for learning more about various modular aspects.

I'm pasting below an update to my rig with the Mavis and a multi-fx (represent the MOOD pedal) outsourced from the palette case so that y'all can get a better image of the expanded system that I was alluding to. However, I realllly have to push back on this notion of an inevitably bigger case. I mentioned "financial and simplicity" as reasons before but this probably deserves to be expanded on, because it doesn't seem to have been taken very seriously, and I hope my own perspective on the creative process can help others that may have found themselves sliding down the slope of endless eurorack investment, or maybe even dragon chasing.

I'm attracted to eurorack for the same reasons I'm attracted to analog photography. The digital world has endless possibilities and I find this not just overwhelming but also uninspiring. I'm coming to eurorack to force myself to think more carefully about music. I want to find a balance between the sounds I'm imagining and the sounds that I can actually produce, as well as discover more creative ways to leverage the gear that I have - not just endlessly buy myself access to new approaches and sounds. I want the music to fundamentally emerge from the constraints, because the more severely that you are constrained, the more creative you have to be. As a noobie, I'm getting the sense that this has become somewhat lost on the eurorack community, but I understand how this can happen after years of investment and rabbit holes.

Obviously we're all fundamentally working with constrains in the eurorack ecosystem, and despite being able to create some really satisfying drones and with the Mavis, there's a reason why I'm planning to expand. I also desire more tones, textures, and flexibility, but the point that I want to say "enough" is probably a little sooner than most. I fully expect to gain interest in modules that won't fit in my case down the line by the way. This is when I will have to make some hard decisions about what to remove from the rack ;)

This is not to say that there is anything actually wrong with buying all the modules you desire. If you have the disposable income and inspiration, go for it. I simply don't want to spend my entire income on this hobby, and it's not how I like to work either. I'm also interested in more than just semi-modular because I want a unique system that I can modify as I go. I also really desire portability. I plan on hauling this system to some renegade parties that I host with friends, and so I want something that will fit in my backpack.

Treat your ears to the album Recur by Emptyset. I saw them perform and attended their forum at Moogfest in 2017 where they elucidated their process, and I found it really enlightening. They largely improvise their music and basically do each track in a single take. Much of what I've written about constraints was inspired by their talk, and their music also accomplishes things that I aspire toward. Despite my lack of experience, I hope that my approach can be respected.

the modular link above was displaying outdated to me for some reason, but in case that's the case for you as well, the following link is what I'm actually working with
https://imgur.com/a/jPjYSHD

With all of that said, I would really look forward to hearing what anyone thinks about the new 62(+)hp system that I've laid out. The Mavis will be in its own self-contained box and the Multi-FX 1U is representing the pedal(s) I can get. This system can now bring in MIDI (most likely from Orca https://100r.co/site/orca.html) with the 1U tile that replaces the attenuators (responsibility shifted to the O/A/X2), and samples can be brought in with the TipTop ONE. The old attenuator module that would have been my mixer has been replaced by a proper mixing module with an extra channel for the sampler (BIA+Mavis+samples), and I've included a bunch of other utility modules to modulate these three voices. Last but not least, Steppy has been replaced with the Mimetic Digitalis, as rightfully suggested.

I still have a lot of reading to do about all of these things but I suspect that the main source of learning will come from hand-on experience with these modules, so I don't really know how far in advance I can realistically plan, but I appreciate any additional input y'all might have :)

EDITED Sep 17th 2023, 18:36

Sounds like you know where you want to go with it.
Have fun and good luck!

Hi,
Good goals. Go ahead!
Maybe I would change Clep Diaz. With Mimetic, Pipslope and Tides you are pretty covered for now in the modulation aspect.
Maybe you can leave that 4HP space free for now, and see what you need with practice.
Too bad you don't have space for a Pam's, it would give you a lot of additional play in modulation and clock control (divider, burst effect, Euclidean, etc...).

just bear in mind... no plan survives contact with the enemy... in this case you are the enemy...

countless times I've seen people with this attitude to start & countless times I've seen them either give up (and sell up or put the modular in a cupboard) or buy a bigger case very shortly after starting...

this is almost always caused by expecting too much from too little... constraints can be good, but too much constraint is constraining...

it's not a big deal there are many paths and learning by your own mistakes is an incredibly good one... although imo, learning from others mistakes, is significantly better...

anyway... good luck and have fun!!

My renegade party days are behind me, but as a thought experiment I put together a little travel rig for the mission at hand out of stuff I already have. More often than not, when I'm sitting at the rack exploring, I am pursuing Emptyset-ish or Surgeon-ish sounds. In fact, a considerable part of my rack is dedicated to music like that. Through more trial and error than I'd like to admit, I've settled on about 208hp of modular (plus a few outboard pieces) for that kind of stuff. I tried to make it smaller than that, but one of the constraints I will NOT give myself is cramped tiny modules with minimal or confusing controls and knotted cable spaghetti blocking the knobs. That's one of those things you only learn after trying it and failing miserably. A larger case has more to do with building a playable instrument than chasing a dragon or consumerism, at least for me and many others that participate in this forum. We all have our own process and self-imposed limitations, often philosophical/artistic/aesthetic, often financial, often spatial... I'm not Emptyset or Surgeon, and I'm definitely not a wealthy man, but I have an artistic vision too, in fact multiple different visions, approaches, and projects at any given time.
Another trial and error process led me to purchase and ultimately get rid of most of my Noise Engineering modules. For me, the UI and sounds didn't match the experience and results I was working towards. Doesn't mean they won't work for someone else, but I'm hesitant to recommend them now. There are several euro manufacturers like that for me, but I only know that after trying them out for myself.
So anyway, here's my portable thought experiment crushing, dissonant, and chaotic rack. Some rhythm, some noise, some distortion, some feedback, some lo-fi... Take the suggestions or leave them.