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Unobtanium BLACK MATHS is a huge benefit to the OEM Make Noise Tape and Microsound Music Machine. Add Pam's + a midi interface and you've got a super powerful (and beautiful) instrument for found sound
33PO
Thanks, I will check it out for sure.
IMO there are alternate choices to the included Make Noise modules that would have more utility, but the Make Noise system is very well designed as-is.
33PO
Indeed, every time I open up a video there’s another module that looks interesting. You can get lost for years just reading up on this stuff. My objective is to start as soon as possible and that MN system certainly seems well specified and flexible for what it is. Also it is specifically geared towards the sampling and found sound stuff, which I love doing. Morphagene, as I’ve found out, is incredibly flexible and if you’re patient enough to prepare the correct reels for it, I think you can accomplish many interesting things with just it alone.
If I were to home-brew a similar system I'd make different choices starting with a Tiptop Mantis case:
Include Pam's
Marbles over Woggle
Stages over Maths
Include MISO & Veils
Nebulae v2 over Morphagene
Ikari over Qpas
Happy Nerding FX Aid Pro over Mimeophon
Include BitBox Micro (or Squid Salmple, or Assimil8or)
Include Befaco Instrument Interface v2
Include Befaco Out v3
33PO
Thanks, I am not familiar with many of those, but will look into it.
IMO this would be an awesome foundation for experimentation that can be built upon to taste. Then I'd add an ES9 to have a direct audio interface in the rack and VCV for a hybrid workflow. Then I'd start adding sequencers like Rene and more utilities like a matrix mixer
33PO
The Expert Sleepers stuff also comes up quite a lot. Especially with the proprietary software they have to route signals around your DAW and to your modular rig. This, I think, will have to wait until I have some kind of handle on the MN system (or similar), should I go ahead with it.
It's all a very personalized experience and what works well for me may be a nightmare for you, but there are some tried a true rules that are repeated over and over again
This is to a degree why, as a start, I am sticking to popular modules and well documented module manufacturers since there’s varying degrees of users with content out there.
Get a bigger case than you think you need and start slow to avoid sticker shock and dissapointment. Expect to swap out modules of similar function to fit your preferences
-- 33PO
As much as this is possibly a reality, I am a bit worried with swapping around modules. As I mentioned in my opening post, there’s a very small modular community here in South Africa. You cannot, as far as I'm aware, buy a single module from any of our audio suppliers (well, except Behringer), no one has them, probably due to cost/supply/demand. There used to be a modular shop here in Cape Town, but they've closed down I believe. As such I think it will be more difficult for me to shift modules that don’t accommodate with me, but we’ll cross that bridge when we get to it.
you said it (the idea of a single manufacturer case being silly) & there are a few advantages - but I think the disadvantages outweigh them... part of having a modular is that it's your custom instrument - single manufacturer modulars in some way dilutes this, imo... yes you can patch it how you want and it includes whichever modules you want, but you're still sticking to a single manufacturers design philosophy... not necessarily a bad thing, but, well, not necessarily the best approach...
JimHowell1970
Yes, I am beginning to realise this more and more. In the overarching larger rack there are a multitude of different manufacturers, I was more referring to the Tape and Microsound Machine as a whole, but I’ve abandoned the idea of using only one manufacturer entirely.
re Pams menu diving... it's probably the least menu-divey menu I've ever used... select which channel you want to edit, select menu, select parameter, change parameter, done... and remember that once set up you can save it as a preset and reload it... I find this much easier to deal with than remembering button press combinations (Tempi) and Pams is much more powerful in a lot of ways than Tempi... not just triggers/gates, but also modulation, envelopes, quantized stepped random, etc etc...
JimHowell1970
I have watched extensive series on Pam’s Pro, and it’s an amazing piece of technology. I have pretty much completely abandoned the idea of using Tempi because Pam’s Pro is so much more flexible, not just as a clock, but modulation source, sequencer, etc.
you can use a midi->cv module, or a device with cv outputs... it's up to you...
mutant brain is a multi-channel cv->midi module...
cv.ocd is the exact same thing in an external unit...
JimHowell1970
Thanks, I have seen mention of the Mutant Brain a few times, but haven't checked it out as yet.
For what it's worth, I reached out to Make Noise as well, Walker Farrell responded almost immediately. After some back and forth he also suggested a dedicated midi to cv module. As much as I like the Arturia controller, I think this will give me the most flexibility within my current setup and not add any additional equipment into space I really don’t have.
As such I am currently leaning towards this, more or less:
The removal of the existing MN mult leaves enough space for mmMidi, Pam’s Pro and a spare 2HP, which at this point will be used for either a blank, a 2HP VCA or a 2HP buffered mult.
it would be great to work with module dummies in the real world before starting to persist the arrangement in modulargrid.
smaller versions (maybe 1:2) of each module printed on paper or cardboard which can be arranged & moved around on a desk.
-- modular01
You can go to Modules -> My Modules and just use the Print function of your browser. I have changed the print.css so the modules will be printed in series and other info will be hidden.
Thank you VERY much Jim,
I appreciate you taking the time detailing your answer to my questions.
Indeed home (studio) usage as no dates for live as of yet.
The Doepfer case I have (https://www.thomann.de/es/doepfer_a_100p9_case_psu3.htm) is not that bad: 2000mA +12V / 1200mA -12V / 4000mA +5V. It is the PSU3 version, not the old one.
I was going to go for a Case From Lake 12U 104hp but changing the power source in it (Meanwell if I am correct) to a Doepfer one was going to cost me a lot of cash. I might just go for another Doepfer 6U 84 hp (https://www.thomann.de/es/doepfer_a_100pb_psu3.htm).
I have some hungry modules (4ms Listen4 is 200mA +12V, Sarajewo is 180mA +12V), I am getting to the point where I will have to spare power consumption. I might swap Sarajewo for Chronoblob2 and Listen4 for the Supamix from Eowave.
Regarding utilities and your statement "it's possible you don't know what they are yet..."
You are absolutely correct on this one: I am looking at sequential switches, switches, logic etc...
It does make sense as I am well served with OSCs and modulation but your signature just stroke me (sound sources < sound modifiers < modulation sources < utilities :) Some of these utilities I understand and can see the need for them. Others remain a mistery but surely time will tell...
I will most likely PM you (if that is ok by you) and ask some questions regarding others.
Sorry for asking the stupid question about matrix mixers as I went and had a look on YT which clearly explained it :)
The Doepfer one looks pretty good to me. If you have any suggestions, I will gladly read your post.
Is there a way to merge racks? I have a few 4 row cases that I created before getting the Unicorn account, is there a way to merge them or copy/paste rows from one case to another?
-- vuucuuv
Currently you can only copy modules one by one with c and v keyboardshortcuts between browser wondows.
Neither for live or studio really.
Having fun patching :)
so home (studio)
I hear you when you are saying 104hp...
Went from a racbrute 6U to the Doepfer 9U thinking (like everyone else I suppose) it would be cool...
the doepfer 9u always seems a little under powered...
And I totally understand when you refer to more utilities: the last modules I bought were actually oriented this way:
- Ladik A-541 for 2 mono OUT feeding Octatrack IN A and IN B
- Ladik A-410 Pan/Mix/VCA
- MI Links not so much for multing but rather as a precision adder
Next one will most likely be Ladik S-090 Dual Probability Skipper and then already thinking about Sequential Switches...
What other utilities do you have in mind?
all of them... by that I mean the ones you reach for and don't have... it's possible you don't know what they are yet... almost always more vcas, more mixers, more inverters, more attenuators, , logic, more offsets... I like a simple clock divider - not only because it can divide clocks, but also audio - /2 = -1ve, /4 = -2ve... square wave output... not something you get from Pams...
Could you also elaborate on matrix mixers if you don't mind?
Many thanks for taking the time.
L
-- Loersatz
4 inputs, 4 outputs, each output is a mix of the 4 inputs... really useful for combining copies of modulation to derive 4 more complex but related modulation sources from those input...
also useful for (amogst other things):
send differently attenuated versions of the same input to 4 different destinations
feedback - lets say you have a delay module, but it doesn't have feedback built in - patch one of the outputs of the matricx mixer to the in of the delay and another to wherever you want that delay to go to... pacth whatever you want to delay and the output of the delay into 2 of the inputs... mix to taste!
send/return - whtever you want to send into an in, the one of the outputs to the whatever you want to send to, output of that module back into one of the ins - another of the outs can now be used as the return
parallel processing - similar to above, but use 3 outputs to send to effects, use 3 inputs for the returns, depending on mixing you could have a clewan signal into each effect and then mix the original clean signal with 3 effected signals
stereouizer/manual panner - mono signal into input - 2 outputs become L & R - depending on relevant levels initial mono input is placed somewhere in the stereo field
I like mono ones, the doepfer particularly (ergonomics) - for most of these tasks... tbh I ihave 2 (non-doepfer) and could do with at least 1 more... 1 will be a doepfer and after that I may grab a stereo one (but only for audio) - I mostly use them for modulation
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
Thanks for your input, much appreciated.
Neither for live or studio really.
Having fun patching :)
I hear you when you are saying 104hp...
Went from a rackbrute 6U to a Doepfer 9U thinking (like everyone else I suppose) it would be "enough"... HAHAHA!!!
And I totally understand when you refer to more utilities: the last modules I bought were actually oriented this way:
- Ladik A-541 for 2 mono OUT feeding Octatrack IN A and IN B
- Ladik A-410 Pan/Mix/VCA
- MI Links not so much for multing but rather as a precision adder
Next one will most likely be Ladik S-090 Dual Probability Skipper and then already thinking about Sequential Switches...
What other utilities do you have in mind?
Could you also elaborate on matrix mixers if you don't mind?
Many thanks for taking the time.
L
if for home/studio I'd definitely consider 12u/104hp... and I'd fill the extra 104hp with utilities... this will exponentially increase patching possibilities... and I'd really look at 6u vertical-ish and 6u horizontal-ish - not perfctly - as you'll want a greater than 90 degree angle - so cables will fit...
tbh I'd also consider for live... as you'll be able to add matrix mixers and switches and other control modules... in the closest row...
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
Yesterday i wondered if its time to rearrange the (~160) modules in my rack from scratch
As its not possible to place modules to a specific position within the rack this is horrible monkeywork on huge racks
so much scrolling, so much zooming in and out, so much searching in the my modules list, so much fiddling around with the buggy hard to use module placement that requires pixel perfect movements...
so i had another idea to start with this task:
it would be great to work with module dummies in the real world before starting to persist the arrangement in modulargrid.
smaller versions (maybe 1:2) of each module printed on paper or cardboard which can be arranged & moved around on a desk.
using AI it shouldnt be that hard to convert existing images of the modules to printable blueprints/pictograms that can be printed to paper and cutted with a scissor.
So my huge feature request (or at least placing the idea for this feature) is an "export all my modules or a specific rack to printable A4 sheets"
I have to admit thats especially for users with huge racks because small racks are handleable completely digital within modular grid...
Maybe the idea is totally crap because some aspects are much more tedious than on modulagrid (like searching modules or to get a feeling for the arrangement with only a black/white mess of tiny pieces of paper/cardboard)
Any thoughts?
Hi all,
My journey into modular is at this point so far:
This is where I would like to go:
Any advice/opinion would be welcome. I am mainly making ambient and techno on this rig.
I am using a Torso T-1 to sequence all this and also using an Octatrack Mk2 which serves mainly as mixer (Live resampler + effects), hence the 2 mixers in my rack:
1) Supamix (not yet available) to replace my 4ms Listen4 which is very power hungry (200 mAh +12V) ans also because it has a nice couple of features (mutes). This mixer is routed to a stereo pair on OT.
2) Ladik A-541 which feeds 2 mono signals to OT as well. Mainly SY0.5 and Plaits for drum duties although Plaits could serve a lot more :)
I just flashed Desmodus Versio to Electus Versio to have a go at it.
Also looking for a nice little LPG: Takaab 2LPGv2 or Herzlich Labs Omen. Not sure as of yet.
OSCs: I am pretty well served at this point but not sure about NE Manis Iteritas as I am eyeing a BIA.
Filters: very pleased with Polaris but would gladly add a different flavour to my rig:
Shakmat Dual Dagger or XaVCF from G-Storm Electro (this one for a very unique flavour).
Effects: really like the XAOC Sarajewo but I am curious about the Alright Devices Chronoblob2.
Again, any advice, comments or opinions are more than welcome :)
Thank you for your time.
L
Don't count on it. They have seen how far you went with this. News from real world: people is generally able to distinguish between 'defending' and 'attacking', unlike you, just by reading back this thread from the beginning. Congratulations for your introduction in the main modular synth website! The "trolling", the "shrink" and all those poor images are all in your mind.
And lastly: definitely not your 'bro'.
i hope they respect the fact that i will defend myself against bullshit posters like you. go do it your way and stop trolling modules you dont like and wouldnt use. it makes you look childish. im confident people can see this. so im done with you bro.
So which concept are you preferring?
I can see that its nice to have some portable gear, I don't consider my main case Portable cos its Blooming heavy but I'm working towards having a my Top Case and Percussion Case as being portable and easy to combine with a Beatstep Pro. This leaves my Main Case to be more Generative and experimental.
I want to develop another case that will be more about weird shit and sound mangling from external sources like Pizo pickups etc.
They're all great! I built up these meta-modules not so much for portability, but ergonomics. Each pod has a focused set of fuctions. I wanted the ability to easily rearange groups of modules on my desk depending of the session and to create building blocks of function to help me stay focused and organized while playing.
As for concepts I gravitate towards sampling of all kinds from macro to micro using these modules and auv3 apps/vcv rack via the es-9. Tempi has been especially fun, but they've all got their charms.
Is there a way to merge racks? I have a few 4 row cases that I created before getting the Unicorn account, is there a way to merge them or copy/paste rows from one case to another?
I think with that number of sound sources, I'd want a 4 channel sequencer... stillson hammer is discontinued... & metropolix is only 2 - I'd look at the erica black sequencer... it can do a lot - pitch, modulation & cv per channel, midi interface and it can do random...
I generally agree with @HGSynth... probably 1 modulation source and then a load of utilities... see my signature...
definitely a matrix mixer, something like happy nerding 3 * mia, comparatot, end of chain mixer, sub-mixers, more vcas etc etc
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
i understand there are a lot of sound sources already and im missing some key utilities. but what would you all recommend? attenuators? more vcas? more lfos/envelopes? i know a mixer will be needed. a filter? what am i missing?
-- itsdakota
Honestly, yes to all of the above. I'd highly recommend something like XAOC's Batumi or DivKid's Ochd. Both will get you plenty of dynamic motion. Attenuators are necessary to tame the signals, particularly randomness coming from o-coast, and you'll want to consider other functionality, such as inversion and offsetting. Happy Nerding's 3xMIA and Frap Tools 321 might be of interest. Utilities such as sample and hold/track an hold, logic, and comparators might but fun to use with the random voltages, as well. Also, I'd recommend a matrix mixer, like Doepfer's A-138m, so you can blend signals, mix, attenuate/vert to make things complex. Really great for exploring feedback, as well.
One interesting module to consider is Joranologue's Morph4 (honestly, pretty much any of their modules are worth considering). On the surface it is 4 cascading VCAs (which you need, anyways) but with cv control over some very intereting parameters that make it great for crossfading audio or cv. I'm still learning it myself, but it definitely seems to lend itself to dynamic motion. Also, more VCAs, yay.
Here's a live jam I recorded today. Some patch notes:
Mixing and recording in AUM on the iPad. I just set it up for send busses. So several sounds now go through my FX Aid lo-fi reverb at the same time. The main synth that starts the track and the bass line go through Electus Versio. All of this is of course orchestrated through an ES-9.
Bass - Ensemble. Main synth - bOSC (CEM3340). Icy second main synth in the break - Klavis Twin Waves. Noise - Error Instruments Tele Blender Asia version.
Bass line generated with Zadar. Icy synth sequenced with Transient 8s. Main synth is S&H through an attenuator and quantiser. Drums with a combination of PNW and RCD + Pico RND.
i have this sidecar. been using it for a year now and i'm happy. i'm about to ditch the spring reverb as it picks up hiss. obvious to experienced eurorack enthusiasts. i'm considering a desmodus versio instead which is quite the upgrade but looks fun and it's stereo too for the win.
my question is this: running my moog mother and subh into the modules works just fine. my cyclone tt-303 could do with a pre-amp. ideas for this?
second thing is i think i need something to put my line out through so it comes out less hot. i think. is it an idea to patch my bifaco stmix into another module or ate there stereo mixers that do this in a small package that i should consider instead of the stmix?
if you never wanted my module why say anything? do you feel like an authority saying unnecessary things to people you dont like? get lost you small man
i was exhibiting to a bunch of modular enthusiasts at knobcon this weekend. they loved my modules. a lot of them too. so you look like a fool. so go see your own shrink.
@pointandclicksystems stop sending me private messages with aggressive rants and offences. Really, that won't change anything on my side.
I won't publish your PM just because you're already doing everything by yourself and I respect community rules.
This is not your private space for promotion, but a module database with forum open to community user comments.
This won't be moderated by you: get over it.
There are going to be other people not convinced about your product raison d'etre and will be free to comment so: again, get over it.
Nobody is afraid of your rants.
Learn to be part of a community.
A sequencer would get things moving. Take a look at Marbles, Bloom, Mimetic Digitalis or the Vatigate + Voltage Block combo
Some FX to explore sounds. FX Aid Pro or Ghost for a great all-in-one unit
-- 33PO
awesome thank you! i forgot to mention i do have an sq-1 as well but its sort of busted. metropolix or stillson hammer mk2 are a couple that ive been eyeing, but i dont have the funds atm.
Enjoy your spare HP, don't rush to fill every last space, this is not like filling sticker books. Resist the urge to 'complete' your rack, its never complete so just relax.
long time lurker, first time posting, just like most starters, i was interested to read opinions/feedback on a rack ive been working on for the past couple years. top row is built into a skiff, MI modules became accessible to me at great prices and have been great to learn with so i filled the skiff up hastily.
second and third rows are in a mantis case, everything from data bender to the left are modules ive purchased, to the right are wishlist items. i removed most wishlist items from the mockup but things im interested in:
bionic lester mk3
sloths
metropolix
planar2
befaco mixer
jouranologue ins
panharmonium
i understand there are a lot of sound sources already and im missing some key utilities. but what would you all recommend? attenuators? more vcas? more lfos/envelopes? i know a mixer will be needed. a filter? what am i missing?
looking mostly to make dynamic noise and explore sounds deeply with euro. not so much concerned with drums or making songs.
other gear im learning/working with are MN 0-coast that i use mostly for the lfos and random voltage generator, or fming with the osc and strega for feedback neat echoes. was thinking about getting 0-ctrl, or a some other sequencer just incase i ever made the decision TO make a song or whatever. there are some pedals too, but nothing really noteworthy.
Sometimes when planning a rack and you refresh the browser, some modules drops out. To fix it you add them to their original place again and do another refresh, same happens. It's like the current state of the rack can't be saved. This can go on for weeks on the same rack that those module once again are gone the next time you visit the rack. Could be some cache issue? I'ts the same in inkognito mode so probably an issue with the API response.
Unobtanium BLACK MATHS is a huge benefit to the OEM Make Noise Tape and Microsound Music Machine. Add Pam's + a midi interface and you've got a super powerful (and beautiful) instrument for found sound
IMO there are alternate choices to the included Make Noise modules that would have more utility, but the Make Noise system is very well designed as-is.
If I were to home-brew a similar system I'd make different choices starting with a Tiptop Mantis case:
Include Pam's
Marbles over Woggle
Stages over Maths
Include MISO & Veils
Nebulae v2 over Morphagene
Ikari over Qpas
Happy Nerding FX Aid Pro over Mimeophon
Include BitBox Micro (or Squid Salmple, or Assimil8or)
Include Befaco Instrument Interface v2
Include Befaco Out v3
IMO this would be an awesome foundation for experimentation that can be built upon to taste. Then I'd add an ES9 to have a direct audio interface in the rack and VCV for a hybrid workflow. Then I'd start adding sequencers like Rene and more utilities like a matrix mixer
It's all a very personalized experience and what works well for me may be a nightmare for you, but there are some tried a true rules that are repeated over and over again
Get a bigger case than you think you need and start slow to avoid sticker shock and dissapointment. Expect to swap out modules of similar function to fit your preferences
Thanks for your quick response, Jim, it is appreciated. Some responses to your posts below:
NP
I think it's a toss up between Tempi and Pams - the interfaces are quite different etc... try to work out which one you'd rather work with through watching videos and reading the manuals - Tempi is more button combination presses and Pams is more menu divey (although quite shallow and easy to learn - all channels have the same menu - but the 'programming' interface is relatively basic - the new screen - on the Pro - is apparantly much better and more informative than just some LEDs)
JimHowell1970
I thought about Pams (as you will have seen from the rack) and have seen mention of the Pro version, but it seems like there’s a fair amount of menu diving involved and people have said it’s a far more complicated unit than Tempi. Remains to be seen which is better for my use case, if I get one at all. I do like the idea of an all MN case though… (I know this is a silly thing to say)
you said it (the idea of a single manufacturer case being silly) & there are a few advantages - but I think the disadvantages outweigh them... part of having a modular is that it's your custom instrument - single manufacturer modulars in some way dilutes this, imo... yes you can patch it how you want and it includes whichever modules you want, but you're still sticking to a single manufacturers design philosophy... not necessarily a bad thing, but, well, not necessarily the best approach...
re Pams menu diving... it's probably the least menu-divey menu I've ever used... select which channel you want to edit, select menu, select parameter, change parameter, done... and remember that once set up you can save it as a preset and reload it... I find this much easier to deal with than remembering button press combinations (Tempi) and Pams is much more powerful in a lot of ways than Tempi... not just triggers/gates, but also modulation, envelopes, quantized stepped random, etc etc...
there'll definitely be a learning curve - take it slowly etc... you'll get there - it's not much different than vcv rack - except you'll have a limited number of module and a limited number of patch cables... and be able to physically control 2 differnt knobs at once...
JimHowell1970
Oddly this is one of the main reasons I want to get hardware, to negate the ‘endless modules’ possibilities and 'endless cables' of VCV. As nice as it is, I think all that choice isn’t necessarily a good thing. At first, perhaps, but certainly not in the long run. I think it lengthens your learning curve and as a result encumbers your ability to make useful stuff, well unless you stick to a handful of modules only. This is essentially what I'm trying to do, by just using a handful of MI modules and some utilities.
the tape and sound machine - don't know - maybe - the rack above - imo too much to start with and very heavily leaning towards too many voices and effects and not enough moudlation and utiliites - see my signature for some hints!
JimHowell1970
I know there’s at least one too many Plaits in there, but I do like the flexibility of it as a module that can be used for percussive as well as traditional voices. Any specific ideas on how to improve that silly rack in more specifically would be greatly appreciated! That's one thing I need to get a better handle on, utilities. I don't know enough about them at all.
see my post above - start slowly and grow organically and slowly...
probably - I use a kick sample in Logic for sync - played from my audio interface (es8) into PNW - works perfectly... I've set up Pams to start/stop/reset based on this clock... I've also heard of people using the run input similarly... I'd suspect that tempi can work the same - you may need some amplification for the clock etc...
JimHowell1970
Thanks, I have as yet been unable to find a definitive answer to this, specifically when it comes to using it with Cubase. It has all sorts of clock sending options, but this isn’t the typical midi clock stuff I'm used to. It’s quite important that I can do this though, since I would like to, whenever I use more rhythmically orientated and delayed sounds, for it to synchronise and play well with my other equipment and arrangements.
all DAWs are similar... the same process will work with Cubase, ProTools, Reason, Ableton, Fruity Loops etc etc... there may be different short cuts to getting it to work... ie apparently you can use a loop in Logic (& probably other DAWs) to reduce the need to copy and paste etc... but once it's done, it's done and no need to fix what is not broken!
depends on the midi->cv interface - I'd do some more research before committing to one - the mutant brain - now made by Erica Synths is reputedly a very good and versatile example - also available as a stand alone unit the cv.ocd - if rack space is an issue
JimHowell1970
This is the thing, I am not sure how this works, at all, and haven’t been able to find much information on it. Is this a module only type of solution, i.e. you need a specific midi to CV module or are there other ways of accomplishing this via some kind of converter box? Or must your midi device specifically have CV out, like the Arturia controllers?
you can use a midi->cv module, or a device with cv outputs... it's up to you...
mutant brain is a multi-channel cv->midi module...
cv.ocd is the exact same thing in an external unit...
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
Here's where I would start based on your description:
Keystep - Midi-CV
yes, but not for it's midi-> cv, but because it's got a basic cv sequencer in it... even this could be dropped and use Pams for quantized stepped random loops as a pitch and envelope 'sequencer' to start with... it's more important that you can generate some pitch & gate/envelope information than what it is at least to start with...
Clock - Pam's (for clocks and slow evolving LFO/Random)
yes - & see above! the new Pro version is probably a better buy than the older New version - consider a passive mult and an attenuator module (happy nerding 3* mia, for example) as a good way to make Pams go a bit further.. they're also good investments for the future...
Sound Source - Plaits
yes definitely a sound source, but pretty much anything will do... plaits does have the advantage of having a built in lpg (vca/filter combo) and lots of different sounds it can generate... if you do want plaits.. go for a full size clone and not a micro version... ergonomics are better and it'll be easier to tune!
Filter - to taste (Cinnamon, Ikari, Wasp, lot's of great choices)
if getting plaits... this is a nice to have, but I don't think essential, due to plaits being a voice module in a lot of ways, as well as being an oscillator... 2nd batch of modules unless you go with something other than plaits...
Sampler - BitBox Micro (also has Midi in)
could easily be in a 2nd batch... or "batch 1.5"... maybe, learn to use what you want to sample first... then add in the sampler... could be part of 1st batch, but don't start trying to patch it in before you have a grip on everything else...
External - Somethign to make connecting Mic or 1/4 instrument easy
again... maybe not in the 1st batch... something with envelope follower and gate extractor would be a good idea... befaco instrument interface (adds phantom power, xlr and quite quiet) or doepfer a-119 (noisier, but cheaper)... if you want to sample yourself playing, for instance, guitar, then think about how you are going to do play and control the sampler transports etc at the same time... there are modules to use with footswitches and expression pedals... these may be key to what you want to achieve! so you may want to get one or more of those at the same time as an external input!
Modulation - Stages/Clone for Envelopes and modulation
again maybe batch 2 - use Pams for modulation and envelopes to start with... gert this when you need more modulation...
VCA - Veils/Clone
yes... possibly one of the best investments in eurorack
FX - to taste (Morphagene and Memeophone are very good, but there are TONS of amazing FX)
not essential for learning... but probably a good idea so you can get some different sounds out of the modular from day 1.. personally I'd go for an fx aid pro, though and then add in whatever specialised effect module you want in a later batch... the fx aid pro has 200 different algorithms (covering all sorts of things including reverbs, delays, etc) and has a decent amount of modulation inputs - as well having an internal lfo... it also has a basic, if functional scope (which can be used at the same time as an effect - it uses a different input) which a lot of people seem to like as it helps them visualise waveforms - both audio and cv - and can help understanding... ears are better though... want to know what a modulation source is doing? send it to pitch input of vco and listen to it...
another great thing about the fx aid is that it also has a load of percussion algorithms... so if /when you are using a multi-channel sampler - you have those to sample and build a rhythm track from...
make sure to get the pro though... the others use LED combos to show algorithm, which needs a cheat sheet to figure out & only hold 32 algos an obviously no scope... if you get a subsequent one these are fine... as you can order the algos so the pro is the cheat sheet!
Audio Mixer - Something that interfaces with your other equipment well
you could easily use the veils clone for this to start with... just make sure to start with everything turned down...
So many modules out there it’s completely overwhelming.
-- Darclinc
yes 11k+ of modules is quite a lot... at least to start with sticking to better known/more popular brands can definitely help! and sticking to modules that are 'in production'...
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
You should expect your system to evolve as your needs change. The best advice I recieved is to start with just a few modules and learn how they fit into your workflow, then start adding modules that will expand and support your workflow
33PO
Yep, this is why I was leaning toward the MN system to start with, since it seems like a very powerful and flexible device that does quite a lot of things.
Mutable Instruments made some of the most innovative modules that have a bunch of different ways of patching. Stages for example can be envelopes/LFOs/StepSequencer or an oscillator. Great choice to go with MI as a brand
33PO
I don’t have much to compare it to, but I was immediately drawn to their modules, they just seem simpler to understand somehow. I don’t know why, something about the layout, the graphics, the colouring, it all seems so … considered.
If you'll be working with found sounds a sampler might be a great addition to this system. ALM Squid or BitBox would be awesome.
33PO
Are you referring to the Make Noise Tape and Microsound machine or the larger rig?
Here's where I would start based on your description:
Keystep - Midi-CV
Clock - Pam's (for clocks and slow evolving LFO/Random)
Sound Source - Plaits
Filter - to taste (Cinnamon, Ikari, Wasp, lot's of great choices)
Sampler - BitBox Micro (also has Midi in)
External - Somethign to make connecting Mic or 1/4 instrument easy
Modulation - Stages/Clone for Envelopes and modulation
VCA - Veils/Clone
FX - to taste (Morphagene and Memeophone are very good, but there are TONS of amazing FX)
Audio Mixer - Something that interfaces with your other equipment well
This would be a fine starter system with lots of flexibility. Then I'd start adding things like a Marbles clone and other things that are in your original system
33PO
Thanks for the suggestions, I will look into these in a bit more detail.
So many modules out there it’s completely overwhelming.
what are the stated power outputs per rail for the x1 psu3?
do you mean 1 * a doepfer psu3???
if so the stated power supplies per rail are 12V / 2000mA, -12V / 1200mA, +5V/4000mA
your stated draw is:
+12V: 1936 mA
-12V: 863 mA
5V: 0 mA
and your current draw is 1850mA on the 12v...
general advice is to leave at least 25-30% headroom on each rail - you're already way over that without adding any more modules - I suspect this is a LC9 case - they're great for basic analog modules, but a bit underpowered for a lot of digital modules which you have in your case...
based on that - you may be ok, you may not be, you probably won't damage any modules, but you may blow the fuse in the case, or you may just experience issues with inrush and some modules may not power up correctly...
either way if I were you I wouldn't add that module to this case...
If it was me I'd spend the money on another case and start adding some basic analog utility modules to enhance your patching and reduce the power draw on this case and then buy the module you want
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
well i dont know you or how you speak. this is not a speaking forum, its a writen forum. and you followed the first guy who was obviously fishing for a reaction and skirted the line between being civil and offensive. lucky you following a class act like that. but ok man thanks for the good words. and respect to your paradigm.
-- pointandclicksystems
I type as I speak... it's all just communication isn't it!?!
always best to assume the best, or at the very least, the least bad...
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
I'm currently in the process of expanding my modular synth setup, and I could use some guidance regarding power consumption. My current setup, has been running smoothly with a power consumption of 1850 mA on +12V and 850 mA on -12V.
Now, I'm excited to add another VCO. (Coral)
I want to ensure that my power supply, the x1 PSU3, can handle this additional load without any issues. As it stands, my setup is running comfortably with the existing modules.
+12V: 1936 mA
-12V: 863 mA
5V: 0 mA
So, my main question is: Will the x1 PSU3 be sufficient to power my expanded setup with the added VCO, considering the new power consumption figures I've mentioned?
Thanks for your quick response, Jim, it is appreciated. Some responses to your posts below:
I think it's a toss up between Tempi and Pams - the interfaces are quite different etc... try to work out which one you'd rather work with through watching videos and reading the manuals - Tempi is more button combination presses and Pams is more menu divey (although quite shallow and easy to learn - all channels have the same menu - but the 'programming' interface is relatively basic - the new screen - on the Pro - is apparantly much better and more informative than just some LEDs)
JimHowell1970
I thought about Pams (as you will have seen from the rack) and have seen mention of the Pro version, but it seems like there’s a fair amount of menu diving involved and people have said it’s a far more complicated unit than Tempi. Remains to be seen which is better for my use case, if I get one at all. I do like the idea of an all MN case though… (I know this is a silly thing to say)
there'll definitely be a learning curve - take it slowly etc... you'll get there - it's not much different than vcv rack - except you'll have a limited number of module and a limited number of patch cables... and be able to physically control 2 differnt knobs at once...
JimHowell1970
Oddly this is one of the main reasons I want to get hardware, to negate the ‘endless modules’ possibilities and 'endless cables' of VCV. As nice as it is, I think all that choice isn’t necessarily a good thing. At first, perhaps, but certainly not in the long run. I think it lengthens your learning curve and as a result encumbers your ability to make useful stuff, well unless you stick to a handful of modules only. This is essentially what I'm trying to do, by just using a handful of MI modules and some utilities.
the tape and sound machine - don't know - maybe - the rack above - imo too much to start with and very heavily leaning towards too many voices and effects and not enough moudlation and utiliites - see my signature for some hints!
JimHowell1970
I know there’s at least one too many Plaits in there, but I do like the flexibility of it as a module that can be used for percussive as well as traditional voices. Any specific ideas on how to improve that silly rack in more specifically would be greatly appreciated! That's one thing I need to get a better handle on, utilities. I don't know enough about them at all.
probably - I use a kick sample in Logic for sync - played from my audio interface (es8) into PNW - works perfectly... I've set up Pams to start/stop/reset based on this clock... I've also heard of people using the run input similarly... I'd suspect that tempi can work the same - you may need some amplification for the clock etc...
JimHowell1970
Thanks, I have as yet been unable to find a definitive answer to this, specifically when it comes to using it with Cubase. It has all sorts of clock sending options, but this isn’t the typical midi clock stuff I'm used to. It’s quite important that I can do this though, since I would like to, whenever I use more rhythmically orientated and delayed sounds, for it to synchronise and play well with my other equipment and arrangements.
depends on the midi->cv interface - I'd do some more research before committing to one - the mutant brain - now made by Erica Synths is reputedly a very good and versatile example - also available as a stand alone unit the cv.ocd - if rack space is an issue
JimHowell1970
This is the thing, I am not sure how this works, at all, and haven’t been able to find much information on it. Is this a module only type of solution, i.e. you need a specific midi to CV module or are there other ways of accomplishing this via some kind of converter box? Or must your midi device specifically have CV out, like the Arturia controllers?
not really with most modern modules - this may have been an issue in the past - although it may also be an old wives tale to some extent - I've accidentally patched outputs to outputs many times and had a problem... (I have a reasonable number of the modules that you have in this rack - especially the mutable ones)
hope all this helps!
JimHowell1970
You should expect your system to evolve as your needs change. The best advice I recieved is to start with just a few modules and learn how they fit into your workflow, then start adding modules that will expand and support your workflow
Mutable Instruments made some of the most innovative modules that have a bunch of different ways of patching. Stages for example can be envelopes/LFOs/StepSequencer or an oscillator. Great choice to go with MI as a brand
If you'll be working with found sounds a sampler might be a great addition to this system. ALM Squid or BitBox would be awesome.
Here's where I would start based on your description:
Keystep - Midi-CV
Clock - Pam's (for clocks and slow evolving LFO/Random)
Sound Source - Plaits
Filter - to taste (Cinnamon, Ikari, Wasp, lot's of great choices)
Sampler - BitBox Micro (also has Midi in)
External - Somethign to make connecting Mic or 1/4 instrument easy
Modulation - Stages/Clone for Envelopes and modulation
VCA - Veils/Clone
FX - to taste (Morphagene and Memeophone are very good, but there are TONS of amazing FX)
Audio Mixer - Something that interfaces with your other equipment well
This would be a fine starter system with lots of flexibility. Then I'd start adding things like a Marbles clone and other things that are in your original system
hey bro, this tone is what you should lead with the next time you have a negative review for someones creation. what you led with was far below the tone you are now taking. and you knew this when you trolled me. but thanks for maning up and becoming a gent.
no, you're not getting the point - I wasn't trolling - I was just making an "off the cuff, witty, albeit opinionated, observation" in reply to the previous post, not a review - to do that I'd actually have to have actually played with one of these! imo, your tome - ie taking someone else's off the cuff remark and railing against it - points to the troll, if any, being you!
but not to worry...
if you're going to take every bit of criticism and differing opinions to those of yours as trolling then that's very binary thinking! and really doesn't reflect well on you... and that in turn doesn't reflect well on your business... just take a look at Uli Behringer and the Synthrotek guy! so I would advise good grace in relation to criticism/opinions etc of your products in future!
please note that a lot can be lost in translation between an englishman and an american - despite speaking a similar language!!!
I, for example, have default settings of dry humour and sarcasm... there is never any offence intended - any offence taken (as previously stated it is impossible to give offence in the English language), is the sole responsibility of the offended...
& actually I said something quite nice - ie I think these types of module, whilst not for me, are 'clever'... I'd take that as a compliment!
.... power is provided separate from the euro rail as requirements would push past any normal PSU made for euro modules. the only thing powered by the rail are (optionally) fans and only with the intention of allowing a user to slow them down to avoid the jet engine effect.
-- pointandclicksystems
you do appear to have done a very good job of thinking at least a lot of the downsides of this... and mitigating... so good job!!
again best of luck, I hope you sell loads!
-- JimHowell1970
well i dont know you or how you speak. this is not a speaking forum, its a writen forum. and you followed the first guy who was obviously fishing for a reaction and skirted the line between being civil and offensive. lucky you following a class act like that. but ok man thanks for the good words. and respect to your paradigm.
hey bro, this tone is what you should lead with the next time you have a negative review for someones creation. what you led with was far below the tone you are now taking. and you knew this when you trolled me. but thanks for maning up and becoming a gent.
no, you're not getting the point - I wasn't trolling - I was just making an "off the cuff, witty, albeit opinionated, observation" in reply to the previous post, not a review - to do that I'd actually have to have actually played with one of these! imo, your tome - ie taking someone else's off the cuff remark and railing against it - points to the troll, if any, being you!
but not to worry...
if you're going to take every bit of criticism and differing opinions to those of yours as trolling then that's very binary thinking! and really doesn't reflect well on you... and that in turn doesn't reflect well on your business... just take a look at Uli Behringer and the Synthrotek guy! so I would advise good grace in relation to criticism/opinions etc of your products in future!
please note that a lot can be lost in translation between an englishman and an american - despite speaking a similar language!!!
I, for example, have default settings of dry humour and sarcasm... there is never any offence intended - any offence taken (as previously stated it is impossible to give offence in the English language), is the sole responsibility of the offended...
& actually I said something quite nice - ie I think these types of module, whilst not for me, are 'clever'... I'd take that as a compliment!
.... power is provided separate from the euro rail as requirements would push past any normal PSU made for euro modules. the only thing powered by the rail are (optionally) fans and only with the intention of allowing a user to slow them down to avoid the jet engine effect.
-- pointandclicksystems
you do appear to have done a very good job of thinking at least a lot of the downsides of this... and mitigating... so good job!!
again best of luck, I hope you sell loads!
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
this seems at least respectful
-- pointandclicksystems
it's always wise to remember that respect is something to be earned and not just expected... what you're really saying is that that post was not critical!!
just like it's a good thing to be able to tell the difference between flippant and/or witty banter, opinion, criticism and insult...
especially when you are promoting a product... you can either 'show good grace' or behave like Uli...
NB where I come from, to a large extent, we reserve insults for our friends - it's how we express our love for them!!
for the record - I use a computer a lot of the time & for a myriad of purposes... including, but not limited to: multitrack recording, video synth front end and back end, programming etc
my use of the terms 'modular synthesis' and 'synthesis with modules' is both descriptive and philosophical...
by 'modular synthesis' I mean the use of fundamentally basic building block modules - such as vcos, vcas, vcfs, simple utilities etc that are patched together using patch cables to achieve synthesis - ie "traditional" modular synthesis
by 'synthesis with modules' I mean the use of extremely complex modules that do a lot of these things for you and maybe similar to fixed architecture or semi-modular synthesizers within a module... or in the extreme 'computer as module' ie your modules, ZOIA and Hector
often I describe racks as "less 'modular synthesis' and more 'synthesis with modules'" - in that they comprise of mainly voice and effect modules with modulation and utilities (often the most important/interesting components of a modular synthesizer) as at best afterthoughts...
neither of these are particularly good or bad, just different, nor are they to be taken as binary - there is a wide spectrum between them and to a large extent from what I can see, most modular "users" also fall somewhere between the 2 - I certainly do...
a lot of people get into modular as a way of avoiding computer screens (I didm't) and I don't think these extreme 'computer in a module' modules really appeal to them, and in terms of interface design... well let's just say I think vcv rack is 1000 times better, despite the drawback of the interface - mouse = single parameter at a time change - midi controller = better, but still llimited...
they seem to me to be for people who want a modular synthesizer, but don't really like modular synthesizers... or at least the usage paradigm - at it's best - knob per function/function per knob, patch programmability (with actual physical patch cables etc
your module is in lots of ways (or at least in my impressions) much better, although, at least in my opinion, it's a bit redundant...
as a module with a screen:
in a studio: not only does it take up valuable rack space (& power i suspect), but it's doing something that's often already there - the "studio" computer - which only needs an interface (I use an es8/es6 combo to connect to my MacBook Pro), which (given the pre-existing MBP) takes up less rack space and costs less... and is just as, if not more, useful - I can carry my MBP to somewhere else and use it for other prurposes...
as a portable: it takes up valuable rack space (& power) and probably adds more weight - my MBP is about 1.2kg... but and this is the only downside - I'd have to take my MBP and some cables etc with me
as a module without a screen:
in practice I suspect (& it's only a suspicion, I might be wrong) your module is near unusable without a screen... so:
in a studio: the user needs to add a screen, taking up effectively the same space as an external computer, in a lot of cases...
as a portable: the user would have to transport an external screen in able to see what's going on... and a screen is far more cumbersome and awkward to transport than a laptop...
as such whilst I truely think that your module (and ZOIA & Hector) are all really clever devices (& much kudos for you and their creators for coming up with them), I also think they are 'awful' modules and I wouldn't want them in my rack... in exactly the same way I appreciate that there are some clever theists and neo-liberals, but I think they have awful, misguided opinions and wouldn't want them in my house...
I'm sure there are many, many people who think differently... and that's great - as always posts express my opinions and are not intended to cause offence (remember in English: offence can only be taken and not given!)
I really hope you sell loads (same goes for ZOIA and Hector) - I wish you the greatest of successes in your endeavours...
a friendly bit of advice: try to stop taking yourself so seriously & learn to take other people's opinions and criticism for what they are... opinions and criticisms.. NOT insults... it's not binary LOVE/HATE (& I know social media and hyperbole are often to blame for this binary type of thinking) but there are almost always places in between - LOVE/LIKE/COULDN'T GIVE A DAMN/DISLIKE/HATE - and all places in between all of those...
I'm all for continuing this as a friendly, thoughtful and intelligent debate about the philosophy of 'modular synthesis' v ' synthesis with modules' and the usefulness/UI etc but maybe it should be somewhere else???
-- JimHowell1970
hey bro, this tone is what you should lead with the next time you have a negative review for someones creation. what you led with was far below the tone you are now taking. and you knew this when you trolled me. but thanks for maning up and becoming a gent.
most everything you said here is a given. do you think i havent heard it all before many times? cmon, give me some credit. i dont take myself too seriously but if you cant say anything nice im not obligated to stand by while you shred my product based on your prerogative alone. i didnt attack you, i responded to your tone. im not a big company and im not insulated from disrespect with thousands of sales and a social media manager. this is me alone in my basement making what are to me the answer to restrictive ethos surrounding modular users who have opinions like yours. i always wanted a computer in my case. now i have one.
i dont grovel for business. i am not cucking for your attention and i never will. if thats something you require from your modular makers, then please go elsewhere. because i will be tempted to reveal your trolling as exactly what it is. if you knew it was all a matter of preference then you didnt even need to 'reiterate' the notion of them being awful because you knew interest was based on preference and paradigm rather than anything factual. your paradigm is your paradigm and you know how fragile some peoples paradigm is, so crappy opinions can influence decision making. it would be different if i had disrespected you before you spoke, but i didnt. i made something that i had hoped you would like. this is in no way an affront to your paradigm. you do you.
please make your own modules and fill them with your vision and leave the smelly opinions alone. youre obviously waay more intelligent than how you entered this conversation. i cant say the same about your comrade however but i think ill allow him or 'them' to hang themself with their own rope.
im excited to offer these modules and am truly interested in providing a positive experience to those who buy my modules. im not trying to bamboozle anyone. i am an artist and i absolutely love the idea that i would contribute to the tools a master might use to create a masterpiece. would you deny me the pleasure of providing such a tool? this isnt really about business, its about a serious desire to supply a community of interested parties with tools and conveniences that didnt exist before.
btw you can use a monitor in studio, set up what you need, then take to the performance as ready to go. you can also use any computer in 'headless' mode, while using a utility to 'monitor' on your phone if you really need to.
power is provided separate from the euro rail as requirements would push past any normal PSU made for euro modules. the only thing powered by the rail are (optionally) fans and only with the intention of allowing a user to slow them down to avoid the jet engine effect.
Lastly, I'm also contemplating expanding it with a Tempi module later for enhanced clocking and modulation options.
I think it's a toss up between Tempi and Pams - the interfaces are quite different etc... try to work out which one you'd rather work with through watching videos and reading the manuals - Tempi is more button combination presses and Pams is more menu divey (although quite shallow and easy to learn - all channels have the same menu - but the 'programming' interface is relatively basic - the new screen - on the Pro - is apparantly much better and more informative than just some LEDs)
Now, I have a few questions:
Despite having been in audio production and synths for 20+ years, how hard is this system and modules to learn?
there'll definitely be a learning curve - take it slowly etc... you'll get there - it's not much different than vcv rack - except you'll have a limited number of module and a limited number of patch cables... and be able to physically control 2 differnt knobs at once...
Is this system a good starting point for a modular noob and my objectives?
the tape and sound machine - don't know - maybe - the rack above - imo too much to start with and very heavily leaning towards too many voices and effects and not enough moudlation and utiliites - see my signature for some hints!
Can I easily sync Tempi with my DAW (Cubase) to start/stop my modular rig with my arrangement?
probably - I use a kick sample in Logic for sync - played from my audio interface (es8) into PNW - works perfectly... I've set up Pams to start/stop/reset based on this clock... I've also heard of people using the run input similarly... I'd suspect that tempi can work the same - you may need some amplification for the clock etc...
Is it possible to reset the units clock when starting, stopping and resetting the playhead position?
see above answer to 3
Can this rig somehow accept other types of MIDI, like notes from my NI S88 keyboard? What options are available or what additional equipment is needed to do this?
depends on the midi->cv interface - I'd do some more research before committing to one - the mutant brain - now made by Erica Synths is reputedly a very good and versatile example - also available as a stand alone unit the cv.ocd - if rack space is an issue
Are there real risks of damaging any unit/s through improper patching (e.g., outputs into outputs)?
not really with most modern modules - this may have been an issue in the past - although it may also be an old wives tale to some extent - I've accidentally patched outputs to outputs many times and had a problem... (I have a reasonable number of the modules that you have in this rack - especially the mutable ones)
hope all this helps!
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
still learning and playing...
I can create some nice sounds and sequences experimenting all the modules togheter
excellent....
Plaits is nice for the sounds and also wavetable add more depth when lowering the octave
Math is used as controller of some effect , it is a complicated LFO in my hands.
'maths illustrated supplement' - work through it multiple times - think about what why and how!!!
Mother 32 is so good and clean, maybe because was the first one in my hands and now I can control it better.
still thinking what module to add at my rack...
I like to play ambient and soundscapes, no drums for the moment...
Generative is also a direction
what you suggest?
-- centecente
ambient soudnscapes - reverb and delay are great for this... especially when subtly modulated! - percussion not so much imo - slow, chaotic modulation - triple sloth for example - or random modulation - wobblebug - although both benefit from a lot of attenuation/attenuversion/(matrix) mixing etc - so as always - utiltiies!
generative - in a box it's difficult to ignre marbles (clones), turing machines etc - although there's a lot to be said for running multiple gates through a (vc) mixer and into a quantizer for generating random melodies
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
