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does the 3xmia provide negative offsets as well?

Hi! Thank you for all your reply, especially to @Chace, your thorough explaination with an actual case suggestion was really appreciated.
So, I tried to add a CV processing section to the initial design and a more flexible signal routing picking up on the words of the other two users who commented before.
(Those are minor changes of my initial design, nothing drastic, I know)

https://cdn.modulargrid.net/img/racks/modulargrid_1714557.jpg

Thanks !

VCAs without attenuators have always seemed odd to me, as I always want to attenuate the CV signal. I do understand it's nice when space is limited. How do you typically use them? Do you generally attenuate before with a different module (like with the 321 and Maths, in this particular rack), or just use the full raw CV in some cases (which always feel too crazy for me)?
-- Chace

The raw CV. However, that build version relies on the Doepfer stereo mixer downstream, and the quad VCA module gives you more or less equal amplitudes inputted to the mixer, and at that point you can adjust the audio levels instead of futzing with the CV levels. It's a better gain structure, in the end, and a lot easier to use. So all you do is to feed those with envelopes, etc...the usual VCA modulation suspects...and work with the outputs. No need to attenuate the modulation CVs!

Well, you could build up an entire system out of "primitives", ie: the very basic, mostly single-function modules. This would be as opposed to the "everything in xx hp" approach of the combined type modules. But doing so in Eurorack = Eurorack prices.

My main modular, though, is pretty much ALL "primitives"...an AE system, 180 spaces. And how much does it cost once it's fully-populated? Hmmm...maybe $6k...$7k if you really push it and include the Tektronix lab-grade linear DC supply I use with it. But the neat part is that it then becomes easy to build simulacra of typical complex modules. For example, this has either six complex VCOs when you use the colocated VCAs and mixer (it's sort of like a four oscillator variation on the usual two oscillator architecture) ...or you can just treat those configurations like 24 VCOs, 12 VCAs, and six mixers in other patches. And if you're into prototyping, they even have their "BrAEdboard" module, which puts a proto board right into the modular itself.

The main drawback is that, like Lunetta circuits, etc, these things only work with a 0 - +5V range. But while it might seem like that's a serious problem when it comes to external device interfacing, all you need is one of Soundmachines' Nanobridge boards and you've got incoming CVs and gates/triggers constrained to the proper voltage range. And audio can enter the system via an AE four-channel dedicated I/O module. Plus, you have to work with pinwires instead of the usual sorts of cables...but tbh, this has to have been one of the least-regretted things I've put money into. And while I know Eurorack pretty well and I've got some Eurorack gear here, when I need to do some seriously deep patching, I fire up that Monster From Murnau.

I love it, sounds super clean. I guess the drums are samples from the squid salmple, I love that kick, how are you sequencing it?

Hey @Lugia, thanks for taking the time to poke at the rack!

My thought on the 333 was to have both a buffered mult and unity mixer if wanting to use both Plaits and Twin Waves together for the same voice. That was also the purpose of having the DTM directly after that, but it only has three inputs, hence the 333 before that if wanting to use all five outputs from the Plaits and Twin Waves. It did feel a bit large at 6HP for that purpose though. I could have easily accomplished that in 4HP, or just had a second 4HP mixer and a buff mult at 2HP.

I agree, a Steppy would be better than the RCD, but yeah, not enough space. Glad to still have the Fractio Solum in there though to use with the Doepfer S&H and to sync the Mimeophon.

VCAs without attenuators have always seemed odd to me, as I always want to attenuate the CV signal. I do understand it's nice when space is limited. How do you typically use them? Do you generally attenuate before with a different module (like with the 321 and Maths, in this particular rack), or just use the full raw CV in some cases (which always feel too crazy for me)?

Definitely digging the addition of the PWR Checker and Qx.

Thanks again for the reply!
-Chace

Thanks again for the time and advice. I see months of deep dives in VCV Rack-Land…incredible place to learn…not to mention a solid tool to create perfectly workmanlike wav files to chop up and repurpose.
Now where did I put that tape recorder…

Beautifully done! There are tumeni nice things going on in this patch—really pleasurable listening.

Thanks @wishbonebrewery, the 90s were good times so I'll take it!

Liking it, reminds me of stuff i'd be listening to in the 90's :)

That there is some lovely stuff :)

Thank you very much piragde!
Now I understand how to think.

Still not speaking drone, but many good ideas in this thread and lots of inspiration.

-- Exposure

Perfect. The best way to speak another language is, knowing the basics, to practice it over and over again...
So now, good luck!

If input 2 is at C volts and window size is W volts, the output is high when input 1 is between C-W and C+W.

So for your first example, set input 2 to 4V and window size to 1V to get a range of 3V to 5V.

For your second example, set input 2 to 1.5V and window size to 1.5V to get a range of 0V to 3V (or adjust as needed if you want the range to start at a negative voltage).

EDITED Feb 15th 2022, 16:59

I have problems understanding my Metabolic Devices 2Win.
If input 2 is at 3v and window size is 1v the output gets high when input 1 is between 2v and 4v.
But how do I get a high output only if input 1 is higher than for example 3v?
And the opposite: a high output only if input 1 is lower than 3v?

And just in case 5 minutes of this isn't enough for you (it isn't for me) I made some changes to the patch for added betterness, like fading the three voices in and out at different rates which adds a needed element of dynamics. I let it run largly on its own for 30 minutes. It's strangely relaxing. Cheers!

=d4e3b93232104757b32e2e82f8b7caf2&utm_source=clipboard&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=social_sharing

All of the suggestions so far are good (particularly swapping in a Versio for the Arbhar, as the Versio can serve any number of roles depending on what you need).

Ochd would be a wonderful addition to a case of this size.

Hey guys, beware of user @Buzzz - he ripped me off.

His name is Pascal Alexandrou (aka Paschalis Alexandrou), he’s from Greece and his email/paypal is ***@gmail.com

https://www.instagram.com/pascalalexandrou/

He sent me a glitchy RXMX module, even though I asked him two times to confirm if all knobs were working without issues. I agreed to send back the module for a refund but once he got the module back (on 24th January) he went silent and basically stole 450 € from me. I tried to contact him several times over the course of a few weeks via E-mail, PM and Whatsapp but no answer.

There have been problems with this guy before further up in the thread so beware of this email and name since he seems to be changing his usernames.

EDITED Sep 27th 2022, 15:18

I think you meant 'populated' not 'polluted', but it gave me a laugh - seriously don't let that discourage you though - your English is OK - better than my German would be, at least without google translate!
-- JimHowell1970

Don't bother, i had a big laugh aswell when reading your comment. I try to keep my rack celan and tidy, not polluting it

Thanks for the input on the o_C

I checked a lot of modules, manuals, other racks here but i never had an closer look to the O_c.
This could really be a nice thing but i think i'm only understanding half of the available functions.
It's very multi-purpose but it looks more apealing than the disting, i really like the content on the screen.

I'm not 100% set but i think i'll give it a try.

N.B. the namesake of the module "Ornament & Verbrechen" is a really clever essay - to much ornament is poluting things

you mention what you are using for sequencing, but not the pico seq... I've got one - I use it for sequencing song parts on Sinfonion - and only for that - I find the lack of a dedicated reset button/jack a real pain... what are your thoughts about it?

cheers
Jim
-- JimHowell1970

the pico-seq was my first module with the pico-voice.
I use the random function quite a lot for pitch, but it's great for cv also.
The interface is a little bit fiddly but with some practice i'm doing well with dialing in some simple baselines.
For faster stuff, bleeps and bloinks i use the random, wich is very musical to my ears.
Sometimes i also miss a dedicated reset button, on the other side i'm really good in stopping a patch on the last note of the sequence. The seq is also great for me as a neewbie to figure stuff out (e.g. scales, wich C) and to jam away instantly within everythin in the rack. When i dont use it for pitch it's modulating stuff. Great module!

Thank you so far!

Smart contact and good transaction with @zoumaz
Merci François !

As for gear, use filters and EQs, so when particular bands of frequencies stars to clash you can start carving. Don't be afraid of cutting low end, nor high ends. Let pass only what is "beautiful", instead of boosting.

-- dadodetres

Thanks for the wonderful advice. In fact I was wondering about filters use in drones, most of the time the talk seems to be about oscillators and tuning, which I get is the most important part for drones, but not that much about filters. In fact, I've been trying out some of the techniques proposed so far and I'm enjoying a lot using the LR4 Crossover, I just send each output to different parts of the system and turning a knob introduces interesting changes.

Still not speaking drone, but many good ideas in this thread and lots of inspiration.

Definitely not "the one". However...

Now THAT'S "the one". What's going on here is that I first changed the order from right->left to left->right...makes it easier for me to build, and you can flip this back to the R->L one.

Then, after the uZeus, there's now an actual modulation section. Four freerun LFOs, four loopable AR envelope gens. The huge Doepfer quad VCO got turned into a Studio Electronics Quadnic. Then Veils serves as your modulation amplitude control and mixing (yeah, I even had room for VCAs here, too!), your Wasp is next, then the FSU. And for output AND your headphone preamp, a Befaco OUT v.3 which also has stereo balanced TRS outs, and a patchable cue send.

The big takeaway here is that while these little skiffs are really a total PITA to build, it CAN be done...but you have to be careful about module sizes in order to be able to fit all of the functionality you want. Well...provided it's not something that requires buttloads of modules, that is. By tossing the Doepfer Quad VCO and Maths (which took up 38 hp between them...in a 60 hp skiff) and being careful about module selection with regard to both function AND ergonomics, this opened the build up sufficiently for all of the new toys.

And the bonus? It only costs $22 more than your original build! Not too shabby...

Overall, I think I need to take a breath and ask what I really want out of all this. As it stands, I want a place to make intricate backdrops for louder stories to be layered on top. what I’m getting at is that I may be asking too little for a world of options and criteria that demands as much as it does from the player.
-- brownbureau

Well, we have a fix for that, too. And it's called VCV Rack. Basically, VCV is a Eurorack emulator...and it's even accurate to the point of having the same "tons-o-fun" module complement (somewhere upwards of 2000 of 'em) that we're used to here. I and most everyone else here recommends this to those who've not had much/any modular experience, as this software behaves very much like (and in the case of VCV modules from manufacturers on MG, extremely much like) the hardware devices.

https://vcvrack.com/ And the price is right, too...FREE! True, the versions with VST integration and the like cost money, but the basic VCV Rack costs zip. Spend some quality time with this, then when you come back to hardware modular, you'll be on a much better informational footing.

One other thing worth taking a look through: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_series_(music) This contains several super-useful tables that show not only the pitches that happen via the harmonic series, but the retunings necessary to translate the pitches into actual harmonic values. And that math is important to drone works, as you'll want the harmonic tunings instead of the equal tempered ones since the harmonic tunings play off of the series that starts with your drone's "root". Bit of a PITA in hardware, to be sure...but back in the day when I was still singing in choral ensembles, when we had music from the proper period, we would instinctively retune everything note-per-note. And it worked...mainly because equal temperament is a "recent" invention, and when singing something prior to, say, 1700, we'd always tune for that harmonic "blend". With the voice, this is pretty simple (and a bit instinctual, too), but if you want to do this on hardware instruments, you've got to know the retunings and/or ratios.

Please note the digital dickery done to the URL above by the syntax. "series" should be followed by underlines, which MG's forum thinks are "italic" indicators. Silly server, no Pocky.

EDITED Feb 15th 2022, 04:22

You could definitely have some fun with this bad boy, no need for a mult from what I can tell though, I'd add an HPO to make life simpler.

Might be the one ☝️

I need to slow down and focus on mastering what I have.
-- sacguy71

Yeah fair enough, I have to do that too

Oscillators, Noise and LFOs, filters and effects, lots of things feeding into other things and amounts of things fed around via the Matrix mixer.

Playing with the ideas found here by Anthurium

EDITED Feb 14th 2022, 22:25

For power groups, I just have a "Power Check Rack" for each power group. Basically I just setup 3 rack skiffs, one for each power group, and keep it updated every time I do a redesign.

Hi Gaz, well... you know... actually...
And you’re a really wonderful guy... but...
(Ahem)

I want a place to make intricate backdrops for louder stories to be layered on top. what I’m getting at is that I may be asking too little for a world of options and criteria that demands as much as it does from the player.

it's good that you know what you want

the case you specified will not get you there though

but is a good starting point to expand upon - once you've had a think come back and have another go...

Merci Jean-Luc.

Smart contact and fine transaction with @klodifokan
Merci Emmanuel !

EDITED Feb 14th 2022, 15:48

@Broken-Form: yes, I tried on my side too, but using Nebulae (instead of Plaits) and Cloud Terrarium, with of course some Lfos, Filters and FXs... You need to adjust the dosage and find the 'sweet spots'. But I confirm that the method is effective.
Thanks @Ronin1973

@Ronin1973: ‘great initiative... pass of the ball...’
@Broken-Form: ‘perfect interception... and... gooal!!!’
‘Wow! Great! The ModularGrid team has a wonderful collective game tonight!’
(More seriously, @Ronin1973, @Broken-Form, I’ll humbly try it too on my side :))
-- Sweelinck

Haha
I cant try it out untill monday.let us know how it turns out

-- Broken-Form

just tried it out,and its a great starting point for some good Drones,so many thanks for the tip

Take this with a grain of salt, but I'm looking at this rack wondering, "Where is the movement?" I love unique voice modules, but it looks like a case of sexy-module-syndrome to me. I think I would want considerably more modulation and utility modules to attain drifting, shifting, ambient soundscapes. 3xMIA, Zadar, Quadrax, and Batumi have already been mentioned, and are good options. I think a Triple Sloths or Zlob Diode Chaos could introduce some uncertainty along with Marbles. A logic module or comparator like Joranalogue's Compare 2 would allow you to extract gates from CV sources to trigger other parts of your setup, etc. I would probably bypass Arbhar for now if you already have Beads. There is a lot more potential in the other voice modules that you have yet to unleash.
Pam's New Workout is awesome and a must-have in my opinion, but not exactly a fun hands-on module. It has Euclidean functions that might be conducive to ambient, but more of a set it and forget kind of thing in my experience. And yeah, an FX Aid XL would probably be fun too. Finally, +1 on the full-size MI Rings if you want to add that.
Just some thoughts on how I would approach your rack going forward. I'm just a random dude on the internet though, so don't put too much stock in what I say.
Above all, have fun.

EDITED Feb 14th 2022, 14:04

How are you creating envelopes? I'd definitely consider a Xaoc Zadar or an Intellijel Quadrax or something along that line.
Also a multi-effect processor like Happy Nerding FX Aid.
3x MIA has already been recommended, it's great.
Something with the capability to play one shot samples, like Bitbox Micro, Squarp Rample, Erica Sample Drum etc.

Maybe a bigger case for all these :D

Thank you both! Difficult to control sounds to me like I should be looking for my 0 hp attenuators. Thank you for clarification. Maybe I'm a little too anxious to break stuff. ;) I'll start more self-patching then.

EDITED Feb 14th 2022, 09:38

Appreciate the thoughtful feedback, Jim and Luigia. I think the best thing to do is to take a step back and really learn how modular benefits the overall intent of what I’m trying to accomplish. Very thoughtful feedback and a deep nod to both of you on the problematic practical use of smaller clones to master mods, ergonomics, and fundamental utilities. Overall, I think I need to take a breath and ask what I really want out of all this. As it stands, I want a place to make intricate backdrops for louder stories to be layered on top. what I’m getting at is that I may be asking too little for a world of options and criteria that demands as much as it does from the player. Anyway…I really do appreciate the time you both took to help me rethink this from the start.

I'd spend the extra few quid and get a real rings - you don't save that much space with the nano version (or money)
and due to the number of jacks even the full size one can feel a little cramped - also it's notoriously difficult to 'tune' perfectly and trimmers, at least in my experience, are much less accurate

have fun...

just to add to what @Lugia said:

get the mantis - just do the simple maths of cost/hp and see what a waste of money the 60hp case + power is compared to the mantis - it's more than double the cost per hp - and you will need those hp sooner or later... it'll also allow you to go for full size modules - a lot of people are surprised by how small eurorack modules are when they actually get them - as they've never seen or touched them before they actually receive their first modules - remember 1u is 1.75" and 1hp is 1/5" - when you start plugging cables into them and try to access the knobs/switches etc - they can be really cramped - and the tiny trimmers that you tend to get on smaller modules are not only really small, but precision is difficult with them...

there's no modulation - you are going to want more than just a random source for modulation - I like Maths as a starter modulation module - see the maths illustrated supplement - it's a great introduction to patching techniques - take the ideas in there and run with them....

there's no where near enough utilities - see my signature - I like a starter set of links, kinks, shades and veils - they cover a lot of bases - which need covering - substitutes are available - Happy Nerding 3*MIA is a good substitute for shades for example - but you will need these modules and more to add variety and complexity

take you time - there's no need to fill a case immediately - but buy or make some blind panels to prevent nasty accidents! nothing dangerous - but they can be seriously annoying if you manage to blow up your power supply and are without your synth until it gets fixed!

Made a change or three here, but the most drastic thing it needed was to clarify the signal flow.

The biggest changes were down at the right end of the upper row. I tossed the VC Mixer, then this opened up some more space, along with relocating the 333 (and turning it into a 321, since it's now a modulation nexus), and then a little graveyard dust and black cat bones, and now your audio row ends with a panning stereo mixer WITH a quad exponental VCA before it for CV level control. But also, some of the debris down on the bottom got pitched, most notably the RCD as I swapped it for a Noise Engineering Fractio Solum. That now gives you CV over clock division and multiplication. And the triple S&H went bye-bye; what you seem to have been shooting for there was probably better served with an Intellijel Steppy, but I couldn't find the 6 hp it needs. Oh, and the PWRchekr, since you've got a convenient 1 hp hole, and it's good to know the condition of your DC rails.

First up, a mult in this small of a build is pointless. In the event you need to split off a signal, just use inline mults. You might only need one or two with this.

But the problem here is that if you're aiming for "ambient noodling with samples thrown in", this build is sort of not exactly "synth-like". True, it has AN oscillator and A resonator, but there's virtually none of the modules that you'd use for modulation, no VCAs, no...well, just no, really.

Definitely follow Jim's case advice above. Even at 1 x 84, you get into cramped spaces if the build needs to do something complicated. Think Mantis, Palette 104, etc; 60 hp might fit a Moog device, but that's MOOG and what they can do with a prepatched, prebuilt system. Once you step into modules, you need space for both flexibility while setting up a build AND ergonomics so that you've got real knobs and sliders and such. These clones here aren't as bad about that as some I've seen, but they're still going to be an impediment unless you've got fingers the size of chopsticks.

My bet is that it's in the mid-40s, actually...the BF-22 (the follow-up...the BF-20 is actually discontinued) fits in 47 hp in kit form.

Now to my question: 'Can I patch this modular grid sketch up. or Will feeding back Audio Rate Modulation to the same Oscillator from where It came hurt something?
-- zuggamasta

Nah. Might be a tad difficult to control, but you won't blow up anything with that trick. Fact is, lots of synthesists use feedback paths to beef up a sound. Probably the best-known example of this is (ab)using the Minimoog's headphone out and external audio in to set up feedback to add some "oomph". As long as you're not patching outputs to other outputs, you're golden.

Wheee...OK, I went over Jim's remarks as well as some of my own ideas, and arrived at:

This is fairly similar in places to the original build, but by being more economical with panel space while not losing much in the way of original functionality, I've managed to cram MORE in without making the build an unusable mess by not using teensy-weensy controls.

TOP: Ladik Dual Precision Slew is first, which allows you to use portamento on your VCOs, with portamento on up, down, or both selectable separately. Black Wavetable's next, then a real Plaits, and then an Erica PICO ring modulator with an internal carrier oscillator. After this, the Wave went back in, as it fits in SO nicely as a summer/wavefolder that can either go post-VCO or post-VCAs. Then a Veils for amplitude control over your audio sources. I kept the Forbidden Planet because...well, Nyle's VCF there is a killer lead filter. And after that is something VERY weird and dronable...a Limaflo Motomouth morphing vocal formant filter. That allows you to impose different formant structures onto an incoming signal, with a result that can go from choir-like to downright weird depending on how you approach it. Dual XFade then allows you to crossfade between any of that, and then it feeds Beads and/or an Erica Dual FX. The last module there is an omsonic "Panning Expander", which is really a fixed-level mixer (six in, two out) for signal panning and finishes up the "stereoization" at the right end of the audio path.

BOTTOM: Konstant Labs PWRchekr, natch. If you've got 1 stray hp, that should be the immediate choice unless your cab has DC rail indicators already. Then I dropped in a noise/random source with S&H and T&H capabilities, followed by the Tool Box. Sloths is next, then a CVable clock divider/multiplier from Noise Engineering. So, with this being the logical place for the sequencer, there's the Bloom. Following this, we get into the main modulation devices: Batumi/Poti and Maths, then a Doepfer dual VCA followed by Frap's 321; this little VCA/CV mixer section is for manipulating/altering your modulation signals to create more complex modulation schema coming out of the bottom row. On the other side of this is a Quadrax/Qx combo. Then conveniently located below the omsonic panning mixer, you'll find a Happy Nerding Isolator, which not only functions as a stereo 1/4" audio out, it uses transformer isolation...so you can hit it a little hotter, and the transformers will warm things up a tad due to saturation.

So, this probably eliminates some of your existing modules that you'd mentioned...but it IS a more controllable build that actually has more capability than the original.

Thanks Garfield,

I did it for two reasons. One is home repairs are my priority and I just spend 7k on new windows and need to install new fencing. That blows my gear budget for the next couple of years. Second, I need to slow down and focus on mastering what I have. I bought a ton of modular gear in the past few years and just scratching the surface. No biggie- I am thankful to have such wonderful modules! I love patching then coming back later to see if I can rise to a new challenge without changing a patch but tweaking something like a parameter or setting on the sequencer for example.

Mmmmmmnah. Not when I can go to Walmart and snag several bags of nylon cable ties for the same price. Or Menard's, Lowe's etc etc...

...which is the point. Some things DO need a specialized solution, but I set down a rule for myself decades ago that says that if you can source as much as possible of your implements LOCALLY, this strategy works far better, cheaper, and without the hassle of playing "package vigil" to keep your stuff from getting porch-pirated. But even moreso...if you're doing a live gig, and something like a cable, etc fails, you know that the nearest (and ubiquitous) bigbox store has what you need. And that can be a lifesaver!