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yes - get a bigger case

the intellijel case is quite pricey - I'd go for a mantis instead (if you can find one - I see deliverys scheduled soonish in some EU/UK shops) - about 1/2 the price and plastic not aluminium case - the case for them is inexpensive and 1/2 decent these days - nb you wont notice the case once it's full and patched!

1 - good choices - I'd go veils over the intellijel quad though - slightly smaller by 2hp - you might find either a dedicated envelope follower or a dedicated lfo a good thing to add to that set of modules - Maths is great, but it's much better when you patch-program it and don't think of it as just a set of simple functional blocks - see the 'maths illustrtrated supplement' (via google)

you'll also want an instrument interface - the sonicsmith ev1 - seems to be the best in lots of ways - apparently the pitch tracking is great for single note runs etc - don't think it can handle chords - but nothing else can either

if you don't need pitch tracking - there are a number of input modules with envelope following and gate extraction - both are things you really want - and if in the future you want to add pitch following there's one in disting - which is supposed to be not bad - and disting is kind of like Maths in that it's a swiss army knife module - can do lots of things but only 1 at a time - can be daunting if you try to use too many different algos too quickly - just pick a few and set them up as favourites

as a guitarist your hands will be used playing the guitar - consider an expression pedal interface so you can get some control with your feet - addac, doepfer and 7dials all make them - 7 dials is DIY though but as a student you may be able to find someone who'll do an hours soldering for you for not much, or will teach you - if of course you can't solder yourself already!

2 - an audio interface... maybe you already have one and this will definitely work for audio - you may find you need attenuation and amplification - or balanced inputs - you may or may not need a i/o module - I'd try veils for amplification and some passive attenuators before a dedicated i/o module - unless you need balance i/o for your existng audio interface (which I doubt as it's a small prosumer one - at least it's got 4 outs - anything less is a waste of time)

3 - hands and ears and time - read manuals and if you don't understand something in them ask questions (& google 1st - someone else probably already asked the same question before) - remember outputs to inputs - a few passive mults and or stackcables will massively help...

EDITED Feb 25th 2022, 18:09

thanks @Angst_Atlas for chiming in!!

@mikeleebirds - there are plenty of other matrix mixers of a similar size available - both as DIY and factory built

I've got both a york modular one and a pusherman one - both DIY - iirc they are 10hp each and use trimmers - personally I'd rather have knobs and take up more space - so if/when I buy another one I'll probably go for the doepfer or possibly even the low-gain...

I don't see any modules that are particularly wide there...

any smaller and you'd lose ergonomics or functionality and you have plenty of space to have both of those which are equally important... at least imo

Hi Jim,

Sorry - had the rack private while I worked on them. They're public now.

Ah yes, the good old phone. Now there's an idea! Makes mental note - kick out the scope. Is there scope software for a phone as well? But then I'll really need an audio interface in the rack, e.g. that Expert Sleepers in my big setup.

there are definitely scope apps for iPhone - probably for Android too -but you'd have to find the one that works for you - can't say I've ever needed a scope though in 5-6 years of modular - I'd rate them as nice to have, rather than crucial - except for a few DIY builds

In my home studio, I have a small Motu M4 interface. It has 2 XLS/TRS and 2 line in. It's confirmed DC coupled by Sweetwater so I can use that there. But I expect only the XLS/TRS to be DC coupled, so it's very limited. May want to invest anyway in that case.

nb there's dc-coupled and there's dc-coupled - something advertised as such will definitely be dc-coupled on outputs - but not necessarily on inputs...

beatstep pro is good - I've got one - works great... mostly because it's been around for a long time - and they fixed nearly all the bugs- I've heard of a few issues with the sq64...

Good to know. I also like the fact it has actual drumpads instead of just buttons.

they're much more like buttons - MPC style pads, I guess - not like drumpads you can hit with a drumstick!

I'd try to aim for 3-4 voices max in a case this size - it's enough - otherwise there's not enough space for everything else you'll need...

I've got about 10 plus a bit of percussion - basically another 2 -3 modules - in something like 1000 hp and it seems about right to me...

Yeah, I'm not aiming at more. There's plenty of oscillators in the big version but they can be used for modulation as well.

-- Arrandan

I try to keep lfos separate - every time I buy a module that'll do both - I end up using them for vco's - tides, tides2, cali - all work as both lfos and/or envelope generators - but sound great as vcos - so they end up being used as vcos - and I try to forget that some of the lfos, filters, envelope generators etc I have can also be used as vcos - otherwise I'd end up with patches with all vcos and virtually nothing left for modulation, filtering etc

Hey all! So I've recently become really interested in building my first Eurorack but I'm a complete beginner and I've been having some issues.
For a little background, I'm a classical musician doing a doctorate in classical guitar and I've been exploring the use of electronics within classical music.
I want to build a generative system that functions as a standalone chance based instrument that also offers the option to plug in my guitar to work with the system.
At first I wanted to use the Intellijel 62HP palette case but I'm not sure if this would offer enough space and I've been told that it might be best to get a bigger case and fill it up over time. (7u/104HP?)
I've been watching a ton of videos and trying to read as much as I can but there's still a few things that I'm questioning.

1. I'm not quite sure what modules to start with. I know I need an oscillator, modulation source, sequencer and a VCA so I was thinking of Plaits, Maths, Marbles, and Intellijel''s Quad VCA
2. How would I be able to record into Ableton or perform live using a Focusrite 4i4?
3. What are the best resources to get more comfortable with actually patching this rig?

Apologies if this is all really basic and/or a mess but any insight is greatly appreciated - thanks!

Good transaction with @sedvted
Excellent communication, good packaging, quick shipping!

I bought this mixer some while ago on eBay. It was made by a guy from Berlin (can't remember the name). He said it was one of his first attempts (if I remember correctly) and it it based on the doepfer diy circuits.

That’s a great idea. Thanks!

Thanks for the feedback, y'all. I'm not going to be spending money anytime soon, but tweaking/researching/thinking about a future purchase certainly passes the time.

Based on feedback, I've updated the 'initial' build. Still several overly-wide modules that I'm researching good alternatives for. I swapped the Tool-Box for an eãs. The Cold Mac looks super interesting, though it seems like there are lots of complaints around its learning curve. Most of the changes come from narrowing down my sources of randomness and I settled on Sloths over the others (but CVilization seems awesome, maybe that'll win be back).

Honorable mention: Desmodus Versio and Rangoon (Rings clone/derivative) have caught my eye.

Hi Jim,

Sorry - had the rack private while I worked on them. They're public now.

i'd spend a bit more and get a dc-coupled interface - even if it's a used RME or something for $150 - that way you can use vcv rack - including the tuner and oscilloscopes in there!!! and forget about a scope in the case - the screen is tiny and you can use an app on your phone to tune..

Ah yes, the good old phone. Now there's an idea! Makes mental note - kick out the scope. Is there scope software for a phone as well? But then I'll really need an audio interface in the rack, e.g. that Expert Sleepers in my big setup.

In my home studio, I have a small Motu M4 interface. It has 2 XLS/TRS and 2 line in. It's confirmed DC coupled by Sweetwater so I can use that there. But I expect only the XLS/TRS to be DC coupled, so it's very limited. May want to invest anyway in that case.

beatstep pro is good - I've got one - works great... mostly because it's been around for a long time - and they fixed nearly all the bugs- I've heard of a few issues with the sq64...

Good to know. I also like the fact it has actual drumpads instead of just buttons.

I'd try to aim for 3-4 voices max in a case this size - it's enough - otherwise there's not enough space for everything else you'll need...

I've got about 10 plus a bit of percussion - basically another 2 -3 modules - in something like 1000 hp and it seems about right to me...

Yeah, I'm not aiming at more. There's plenty of oscillators in the big version but they can be used for modulation as well.

thanks guys,

very enlightening...

yeah.. i should wide some bits back.. and go a bit smaller..
get to know the gear and build from there...

im going to save that layout for future reference...

ill post a smaller set up soon .. '

thanks Farkas & Jim

ThanksCurioKid! I had never made paper mache before this. It was fun throwing that thing together. I really appreciate your comment.

Excellent points @JimHowell1970

I quote from moog "the eurorack market's just not big enough" (a few years back iirc)
-- JimHowell1970

Reminds me of the derp from IBM back in the late 1950s that said that, in total, the world will really only need five or six computers. Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmno.

-- Lugia

and Bill Gates saying no-one will ever need more than 640k of memory (or whatever it was)...

I think I've got 6-7 computers (only use 1 at the moment though and 5 are effectively antiques) - and a phone that's (near) infinitely more powerful than any computer that was around in the 50s...

Please make the racks public - no click through!!!!

Hello,
BTW, Jim, your signature is completely right. If sound sources are the organs, effects the muscles and sequencers the brains, then utilities are the skeleton. It's been a very enlightening week.

I'd say that the utilities are the cardi- vascular system - cases are the skeletons perhaps

For the case - you were right that a single 84HP row is much too limiting. I looked at cases and because the Mantis is currently hard to get, I found the Intellijel 7U 104HP stealth case, which is portable and has feet and some external connections. It's double the price of the Mantis, but with its metal build and lid, I like it a lot.

New version is here:

This is the basic version. I made a full version, which I'll link to at the bottom. That came out at over $6000, which is way beyond what I want to spend. So I stripped it down, mostly by removing features (some oscillators, the stereo bit) and sometimes by replacing bits by more cost effective parts (like the Droid for the Temps Utile or the chip osc + noise by a combo). That took the price down to about $2500, which is more manageable.

there's no need, in fact it's advisable, to buy everything at once - $2.5K, is more than enough to start with -in all likelihood you'll keep adding bits and pieces until you've spent at least $6k, if not considerably more - $100/month for over years is $6k - and 100/month is reasonably manageable... it's a few beers less a week,or so...

Top row is all utility. In this basic version, I'm using the Quadratt as the mixer. I like the idea of mixing patches with an external mixer, but on the road, I want to be able to output a single wire. I added the zeroscope for tuning and the occasional waveform check. It's much more cost-effective than a Mordax and I don't need much more. I filled it up with more utility that will always come in handy.

i'd spend a bit more and get a dc-coupled interface - even if it's a used RME or something for $150 - that way you can use vcv rack - including the tuner and oscilloscopes in there!!! and forget about a scope in the case - the screen is tiny and you can use an app on your phone to tune..

First 3U row has the Temps Utile, LFO, oscillators, a filter and the basic Befaco line+headphone out with cue.

Second 3U row has some randomness & and/or to take out beats at random, then clock div/mult. The Harmonaig is lots of fun - I played with it in VCV Rack. It's a keeper. The Zadar - if you can't tell: I like modules that are dedicated to one purpose, but offer lots of functionality within that scope. So I won't be adding an O&C, but I do have the FX AID (great suggestion!). Finally, a fun spring to round it off.

As for playing it, I'm looking at a hardware sequencer, preferably with pads. I mentioned Torso T-1 but it's all sold out and unavailable until August... I'm going to be using it starting April so I'm looking at an alternative. The Beatstep Pro is on my list, as is the SQ-64 and a couple of others.

beatstep pro is good - I've got one - works great... mostly because it's been around for a long time - and they fixed nearly all the bugs- I've heard of a few issues with the sq64...

So what do you think of this new setup?

The full version adds Mutable Ears+Rings, some more OSCs, filters, fx & VCAs, stereo (delay for imaging and pan for the rest) and the pretty impressive Droid with some expansions from Der Mann Mit Der Maschine. I love how versatile it is, yet dedicated to CV production and manipulation. There's an extra 3U row which corresponds to a 3U 19" row I have available in my studio rack. In it, I have the modules from the basic setup that I replaced by higher end modules (Temps Utile and the Feedback Static) as well as audio and MIDI interfaces. Here it is:

-- Arrandan

I'd try to aim for 3-4 voices max in a case this size - it's enough - otherwise there's not enough space for everything else you'll need...

I've got about 10 plus a bit of percussion - basically another 2 -3 modules - in something like 1000 hp and it seems about right to me...

It's so true lol 🙈

Makes me wonder if MG shouldn't have a warning label: "Modulargrid Can Be Hazardous To Your Wallet"!

Hello,

I did some more research and validation on VCV Rack and here's what I'm looking at now. BTW, Jim, your signature is completely right. If sound sources are the organs, effects the muscles and sequencers the brains, then utilities are the skeleton. It's been a very enlightening week.

For the case - you were right that a single 84HP row is much too limiting. I looked at cases and because the Mantis is currently hard to get, I found the Intellijel 7U 104HP stealth case, which is portable and has feet and some external connections. It's double the price of the Mantis, but with its metal build and lid, I like it a lot.

New version is here:

This is the basic version. I made a full version, which I'll link to at the bottom. That came out at over $6000, which is way beyond what I want to spend. So I stripped it down, mostly by removing features (some oscillators, the stereo bit) and sometimes by replacing bits by more cost effective parts (like the Droid for the Temps Utile or the chip osc + noise by a combo). That took the price down to about $2500, which is more manageable.

Top row is all utility. In this basic version, I'm using the Quadratt as the mixer. I like the idea of mixing patches with an external mixer, but on the road, I want to be able to output a single wire. I added the zeroscope for tuning and the occasional waveform check. It's much more cost-effective than a Mordax and I don't need much more. I filled it up with more utility that will always come in handy.

First 3U row has the Temps Utile, LFO, oscillators, a filter and the basic Befaco line+headphone out with cue.

Second 3U row has some randomness & and/or to take out beats at random, then clock div/mult. The Harmonaig is lots of fun - I played with it in VCV Rack. It's a keeper. The Zadar - if you can't tell: I like modules that are dedicated to one purpose, but offer lots of functionality within that scope. So I won't be adding an O&C, but I do have the FX AID (great suggestion!). Finally, a fun spring to round it off.

As for playing it, I'm looking at a hardware sequencer, preferably with pads. I mentioned Torso T-1 but it's all sold out and unavailable until August... I'm going to be using it starting April so I'm looking at an alternative. The Beatstep Pro is on my list, as is the SQ-64 and a couple of others.

So what do you think of this new setup?

The full version adds Mutable Ears+Rings, some more OSCs, filters, fx & VCAs, stereo (delay for imaging and pan for the rest) and the pretty impressive Droid with some expansions from Der Mann Mit Der Maschine. I love how versatile it is, yet dedicated to CV production and manipulation. There's an extra 3U row which corresponds to a 3U 19" row I have available in my studio rack. In it, I have the modules from the basic setup that I replaced by higher end modules (Temps Utile and the Feedback Static) as well as audio and MIDI interfaces. Here it is:

I quote from moog "the eurorack market's just not big enough" (a few years back iirc)
-- JimHowell1970

Reminds me of the derp from IBM back in the late 1950s that said that, in total, the world will really only need five or six computers. Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmno.

Such an epic video! now I'm thinking of what animal/object I want to make... maybe I can commission my friend, a papier maché wizard, to help me make something massive.

the performance at the end was just beautiful. thanks for sharing

Very nice jam and cool setup, enjoyed it and thanks for introducing the band!

All the best.

I always suggest Ornament and Crime...so many different functions to explore...when you find one you like, buy a module for it and change what you use O_C for...even better to add the Hemisphere firmware

Further changes.

Added Duatt. Added clock divider. Added USB power source should i want to travel with some small USB powered keyboard.

Purchased Knit module. So, 3 U sections are all purchased except Batumi and Veils.

1 U units purchased are everything but Milky Way, clock divider, duatt and USB power.

To reiterate, likely to use 0-CTRL with this and DAW sequencer / MIDI keyboards.

This case will live in immediate proximity to Erica Synths DB-01 ( which as limited patching ) as well as Moog's Matriarch, DFAM and SubH.

not anxiety - more like oh there's a part of the rack that's unusable... that was a waste of money, wasn't it - lucky the OP came here before buying and can hopefully be guided away from them...

dunno - but if you look at the product page you can see who submitted it - maybe you could DM them? they probably have a good idea

Who makes this mixer?

Oh Garfield, you are always just the nicest and most thoughtful person. Thank you for watching.

or batumi, branches, zadar

or tides, a matrix mixer (doepfer, 4ms vcam, a n other), fx aid xl

or stages, 3mia, 3vca

or beads, rings, pamelas new workout

basically any combination of sound modifiers, modulation and utilities

see the formula in my signature - it's a rough guide to building a balanced modular

I'd probably not add more than 1 or 2 more sound sources - possibly tides and rings - tides can double as a modulation source and rings as a sound modifier - otherwise you won't have space for the more interesting modules that you'll need to support them...

Jim's suggestion is good! Another take :
1. A delay/reverb. FX Aid seems good!
2. Skis -- 2 decay envelopes and 2 VCAs
3. Tetrapad -- for some hands on modulation
OR
3. Some clocked LFOs. Pamela's New Workout is a good and flexible option.

You're very short on modulation and utilities. Also, if you are flying solo with this, I think you need another voice for the bassline.

EDIT : Peaks, or one of its clones, covers a lot of these bases - LFO, envelopes, bassline -- but not all at the same time. Since I got mine, it has basically been an AD envelope the whole time.

EDITED Feb 24th 2022, 08:25

1) you're right that opening up into the pedal space is cheaper and 2) there's a ton more variety available in that space (both of which are interesting facts, I wonder why that is).
-- troux

there are loads more guitarists in the world than modular synthesists...
market bigger, production runs potentially bigger... cheap pedals are made from cheap components - thin metal or plastic enclosures etc etc circuits are often incredibly simple and small...
interesting/innovative pedals from boutique manufacturers are in the same ball park as modules -
as are rare out of production cool pedals - some can get very expensive - moogerfoogers, lovetone, klon etc etc

maths, veils, kinks

✌️

No magic smoke.

New to modular. Already happy with it, as the Queen, Metro and Circadian Rhythms do what they say on the package. Deckards is a strange beast to me as a newbie, but I can at least make it do Blade Runner or Chernobyl sounds.

What utility modules am I missing? (I'm thinking of adding a uVCA or 2.)
If you could propose 3 modules (as a path/theme) to begin a second bruterack, what would they be?

Rack:

Thanks @Lugia, and that's a great suggestion. I've got another rack I can sit next to this that adds some more effects, but 1) you're right that opening up into the pedal space is cheaper and 2) there's a ton more variety available in that space (both of which are interesting facts, I wonder why that is). For the moment I've really been enjoying keeping things focused, one rack designed for a purpose and feel I've learned a lot that way, but down the road I very well may incorporate some pedals and see what I can learn from that too!

So my rack is built up to support making music with my woodwind controller, enjoy my latest:

Feel free to ask any questions!

Hi Funbun,

Wow another album, that's fantastic! As the music is fantastic too. Is this just me or is your music every year seriously increasing of quality? Sounds to me that your AE rack experience is increasing a lot and you provide us here with some real serious stuff. I know what I am going to do tonight... listening to your fantastic album!

Thank you very much for sharing that with us and kind regards, Garfield.

Hey Fred,

Ha, ha, that's a great video and a cool octopus! :-D Great atmosphere and nice experimental music, lovely stuff.

Nicely done, very creative idea and thanks a lot for sharing this with us. Kind regards, Garfield.

yeah - someone else going "go on, go on, spend money"... works wonders!

hahahahahaha...

all those 2hp modules next to each other gave me
A N X I E T Y

That makes a lot of sense, especially hearing someone else say it! The infinite options boggle my brain sometimes haha. Will likely be moving down that road soon - thanks!

Have you emailed 2hp?
They are normally very helpful info@twohp.com

It's worth mentioning for posterity and because we here love chaos, that the Batumi echoey firmware implements what is called "Verhulst's logistics map" . Since Batumi vanilla is just regular LFO this may not be obvious but it is a pretty useful implemtation such that you can have the four generators running independent or phased versions of the chaos and will have corresponding frequency synced sin and square waves not to mention self modulating possibilities for frequency modulation of each generator. 😎

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/TriParMix--electro-harmonix-tri-parallel-mixer
-- Lugia

that looks cool - is it me or would it have made more sense for the sends and returns to be the other way round though??? ie send/return instead of return/send...

re: the case dilemma - I'd buy a second mantis - then you have space for all the modules that you already have and for the utilities that you need: more vcas especially - and then the 258t and blades may turn out to be a really useful second voice... (selling the verbos CO should easily fund both a used mantis and veils for example) if you arrange the modules well for your workflow then there'll be no need to swap things around and you can have a performance case and a studio only case - work out how to arrange them and it'll be easy to just pulll out the performance case whenever you want it (don't use the brackets though - otherwise you'll never move them!)

@Lugia - hehhe yeah I know what you mean... it's a pity they didn't see the coming of the b-company storm - and dump all their old 5u modules into eurorack at a reasonable price - like buchla with tiptop - but and I quote from moog "the eurorack market's just not big enough" (a few years back iirc) - you can see what they mean, to some extent - the last run of sub37s was 1500 units if I remember correctly from their instagram feed... and that's a synth that's been around a few years... so they tend to want products that sell in the 10K+ unit range rather than the 1-2k+ unit range - shame, really, but I think the boat's passed - unless they can find someone like tiptop or malekko (who did the roland modules) to do the work and just take the cash for designing and verifying...

they even have the moogerfoogers and cp251 that would be relatively easy to convert to eurorack as well as the system 55 etc modules...

nb - the manhattan analogue cp3 is now called the DTM - moog's lawyers wrote them a cease and desist...

-- JimHowell1970

Might be nice if one could actually get a Moog-branded CP3...or anything else modular that's not a take-it-or-leave-it prebuild-only reissue.

Pretty...uh, well, I would say it's kickin' but you can hardly say that about a drone, right?

Man...I wish this build had an external pedal I/O on it. You could take this even further without a buttload of $$$ by snagging a bunch of the stranger/more interesting Chinese stompboxes. Normally, you would just use a pedal I/O...but it might also be interesting to feed the whole thing into an array of 'em. To that, you might want to see THIS: https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/TriParMix--electro-harmonix-tri-parallel-mixer I've had one for a while now, and it's awesome...three parallel I/Os, controls for send and return levels, phase flip, and a "tilt"-type tone control. Takes a hot minute to wrap your head around it, but once you're there, damn...and with a bucketful of Chinese stompers, it's downright jaw-dropping.

Hello,

I purchased a 2hp Play module with the intent of making it a drum sampler. The problem, however, is that I cannot get the module to play any clip from beginning to end. I've tried all combinations of fade and gate options, but nothing seems to work. Does anyone have some advice on getting the files formatted properly and the module configured properly?

Hey all, I missed that these responses happened initially, thanks so much for putting thought into this! I actually responded to this thread a couple of weeks ago but deleted it because it was an unfocused 3am ramble haha. I've put a lot more work in over the past few months so I have some more experience to go off of and a solid collection of modules too. Still scratching my head over the layout though. Here's a draft for discussion:

The first two rows here are the main draft of the Mantis that I basically already have / am planning (draft keeps changing, these are the broad strokes through). Currently I'm swapping out the STMix / Befaco Out for the OPTX depending on whether I'm playing out or at home. The third row is stuff I'd be interested in shoehorning if space allowed (already have the Neb and the Buchla Quad) and the fourth row is stuff I already have but will likely sell.

I'm trying to decide between: 1) Sticking to the Mantis; 2) Getting a slightly bigger case to shoehorn the few extra modules my current setup seems to want; or 3) Getting a second Mantis to have a "studio" case and a "performance" case, which would give me some space to grow into. There aren't any wrong options there, just more expensive options haha.

A few design notes I'm thinking about: Lugia, that draft you put together was really helpful! I picked up the A-138s and it's quickly become a favorite utility; and I think the points about the Verbos were spot on. This draft is missing some of the utilities (lighter on VCAs, less the Frap 321, less the Quadrax), but includes some things I've ended up using a lot (Pique for modulation cv, a matrix mixer for feedback patching, Mutes for controlling that feedback patching and a sequential switch). I have the Buchla FG, which is basically a Quadrax plus expander, but I need to spend more time with it -- so far I've had fun with it but haven't really accomplished anything musically relevant, which is why the Quadrax isn't currently included in the main draft. Ended up with an Entropy over the Nano Rand because of how obnoxious the light is on the Nano, but also because I found that S+H and noise were by far my most-used functions on the Nano and the Entropy worked to fill the awkward 3-hp hole left by the Salmple. I ended up liking the overall sound and functionality of the Dipole much better than Blades (though Blades has a fantastic distortion stage) and fell in love with the sound and functionality of the ZPO, so am planning to go with it over the 258t (although the Buchla obviously sounds amazing too). Re: the Squid Salmple, it's just amazing and the current backbone of my workflow -- I love it to pieces and wouldn't trade it for a Bitbox or external sampler, though I have been curious about the Assimil8or because of its similarity to Squid (with mostly expanded functionality).

Welcoming any further feedback and I now where to look for notifications now!

EDITED Feb 23rd 2022, 22:30