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Now you really got me thinking,
This morning when I got up I looked at the build again and noticed that there are almost no VCAs.
Then I read your Post and took a look at the Skylab.

I think that you‘d be best of trying to replicate half of the Audio Path of that thing and definetly drop one random source in favour of a quad envelope (closest Thing in Euro is probably Quadrax plus Expander) and add VCA‘s dedicated to modulation.
Also you completely omitted the Frequency Shifter.I think thats a pretty crucial one. Luckily Doepfer just put out a very reasonably priced one, yes it‘s a little small, but I think it would be your best bet.

Now I tried to do a complete overhaul that makes sense to me, while keeping the modules as big as possible and looking at the Skylab.

I actually really dig that build, luckily I don‘t have 5 grand to spend on modular right now ;).

Wish you all the Best
Chris

PS: still did not Update, need to click link again.

EDITED Sep 10th 2021, 09:47

One Last Thing,
I just remembered you did a great video on interacting with the modular by using your Hands.
The Er101 seems to be the antithesis of that, atleast to me, have you considered putting Pressure Points in there? Or have you strayed away from that Idea?
-- Cangore

Hi, yep. The ER101 does look a bit fiddly doesn't it. Part of my inspiration was to recreate the Buchla Skylab which I could never justify buying (£15,000 for 10 modules) and the ER101 is the closest thing I've seen to the Buchla 251e sequencer you get in the default Skylab setup. I think I had in mind to pair my next rack with a MakeNoise O-Control or some such because I do still find that my hands are the best CV control I've got... Pressure Points would work too, but of course takes up space. I've been looking again at your revamped version of the modules I chose originally. It does make a lot more sense. I still think I'd like a complex oscillator though - the Skylab has two!
Cheers, MLC

Thanks so much for the input guys!

Agreed that sample based modules don’t have the power/capabilities for what I’m envisioning. Do you think that the hardware sampler approach could match or have any benefits over what orchestral sample libraries already offer?

Rethinking a bit, controlling the rig with modular might be fairly tedious for what I need it to do… What I really want is to get away for the daw format a little bit and play most of the parts in on a keyboard, but use a sequencer to have a hardware interface. Then my Eurorack is just for sound design, and maybe some audio processing after recording. Does this make sense? Or should I just stick with the standard DAW approach?

EDITED Sep 13th 2021, 15:44

EDITED Feb 27th 2023, 07:17

Hi,

Sorry for the late info.
I could have published it before but forget to do.
My bad.

This event will be yearly I think.
I hope so.
It happened in 2019, this year and maybe next year.
A planning can be updated :)

I'm not the organizer, just visitor.

Subscribe to the newsletter :
https://modular404.com/

Cheers

EDITED Sep 10th 2021, 05:41

The RackBrute 3U and 6U cases are actually 89 HP wide, and if you replace the PS panel, you've got an extra 2 hp.
-- Vow3ll
So Arturia falsely advertises 88HP? Not sure I'm following you...their website specifies 88 for 3U, 176 for 6U
What are you suggesting replacing the PS panel with?

Ronin, Jim, Farkas, thanks for the comments above.

Ronin, I hear you on "the modulation sources and utilities are the "sauce" that makes the sound great." And this response is part of why I'm asking this question -- to find out how much of a voicing section people are finding useful / inspiring.

Yet in fairness, I can't think of another way to get the sounds I'm getting from two "power oscillators" interacting (such as Mindphaser modulated at audio rate by Odessa) or complex OSC outputs switched at (varying) audio rate, all of which happens in the "voicing" type modules (like above).

SO, might we say "the sauce (that makes the sound great) is where you put it"? I'm reminded of some Zebra2 patches by Howard Scarr (the sound genius who did most of the sound design for the Dark Knight movies) -- one great patch in particular where the OSC section itself sounds like sh8t BUT it is basically a bland impulse going to an elaborate FX section, where those FX in effect become complex resonators (and the defacto sound generators as a result). In that patch, the FX are the "sauce" but are not acting remotely like traditional FX. Hence this notion that, depending on the setup and patch, the "sauce" could potentially be anywhere...

I AM interested in digging in more to what Ronin & Jim are saying above and where they get their "sauce," if not so much from the "voicing" modules, BUT I fear that would take this thread into diverging directions. So how about this: i) I'll follow up with Ronin, Jim, and anybody else who's interested in a later thread that looks at some of their favorite rigs and what are the core modules / techniques for those rigs and ii) this thread, we can keep jamming about what's awesome (or not awesome) in the voicing part of a rig and why.

Thanks for joining me on this geeky thread : )

@oilpanic thanks for the mention of Fractio Solumn. That was one I amlost bought a couple times but then thought "can't I do that with my PNW?" Maybe most of the Fractio's functions can be replicated with PNW, BUT Fractio's immediacy (vs. PNW's menu dives) certainly argue for it IMO. Anyways it's a great mention, and maybe a module meriting addition to the setup above owing to its immediacy and musicality. I'll certainly keep it in mind.

EDITED Feb 27th 2023, 07:16

Void's probably following the Brian Eno logic for how to figure out synthesizers: install, toss operating directions out, develop own methods instead. And that's perfectly valid...the other school of thought is to pore over the docs before using, but the critique there is that what you learn is a rather "doctrinaire" set of use methods.

As for the different filters, here's a different and potentially better idea: https://www.modulargrid.net/e/nonlinearcircuits-timbre-timbre Instead of changing the filter, add this after the Gravitational Waves to alter the waveforms in ways that the dual oscillator alone can't. Whenever you do waveshaping of any sort, what happens is that the waveform gets altered in some way, which then alters the harmonic content of the original sound. This sort of circuit is in the Moonphase, but it's much more flexible to NOT have the waveshaper in another module, as you can also use them for screwing around with LFO waveforms.
-- Lugia
I'm happy to take the Eno logic path on a module, just not sure about doubling up on it with Sirius' Veil too. So with Timbre & Timbre is it doing what is also called "wavefolding"? Are waveshaping and wavefolding the same? With my Hydrasynth, I do have the ability to do ring modulation...is that a form of waveshaping? I also have Warps which I would assume is also waveshaping/wavefolding? I think I do want to have a 'filter' occupy that space...just not sure which one makes most sense.

I do like the cool factor you described with the Doepfer A-143-9...if I got Neutron Flux for my filter that would give me 12HP...8HP for the Doepfer with 4HP which could possibly go to Kinks if I could find one. SSF Toolbox would be nice but is 2HP too big.

Roses are red
Clichés are chronic
Chipz, Rings, and Clouds can be heterophonic

Sorry, it's a few months early...

Heterophony! Never heard this term before, but it’s something that is in a lot of patches I make, including the “mega-patch” I currently have running. Right on!

Hi Klodifokan,

Thanks for the info, that's quite interesting, pity though that you inform us one day before only. I just made my planning already for this Saturday. Will this be a yearly event? If yes, would be nice to visit it next year, if possible please let us know (much) earlier.

Thank you, have fun at the event and kind regards, Garfield.

Using a standalone hardware sampler that lends itself to modular is going to work a lot better than sampler purpose built for modular.

-- Ronin1973

+1

-- farkas

+1 here as well. This situation is very much one of those things that modular DOESN'T solve, as we have no real equivalents to something like a Yamaha A3000, Akai 5/6000, et al as a synth module. And given that you can snag a full-blown hardware sampler these days for dimes on the dollar, the cost efficiency definitely tilts this playing field.

...which has a lot to do with why I also own an Akai 6000 and a Triton Rack.

Void's probably following the Brian Eno logic for how to figure out synthesizers: install, toss operating directions out, develop own methods instead. And that's perfectly valid...the other school of thought is to pore over the docs before using, but the critique there is that what you learn is a rather "doctrinaire" set of use methods.

As for the different filters, here's a different and potentially better idea: https://www.modulargrid.net/e/nonlinearcircuits-timbre-timbre Instead of changing the filter, add this after the Gravitational Waves to alter the waveforms in ways that the dual oscillator alone can't. Whenever you do waveshaping of any sort, what happens is that the waveform gets altered in some way, which then alters the harmonic content of the original sound. This sort of circuit is in the Moonphase, but it's much more flexible to NOT have the waveshaper in another module, as you can also use them for screwing around with LFO waveforms.

One Last Thing,
I just remembered you did a great video on interacting with the modular by using your Hands.
The Er101 seems to be the antithesis of that, atleast to me, have you considered putting Pressure Points in there? Or have you strayed away from that Idea?

EDITED Sep 9th 2021, 20:58

hmmm - does it really matter?

I tend to use modulation instead of wiggling knobs myself, I only have 2 hands and at the end of the day it really just comes down to taste, doesn't it? - I want to move this knob 30 degrees and back every 10 seconds - just plug in an attenuated lfo - does exactly the same thing

-- JimHowell1970

I think it matters. The amount of error in a hand-tweaked knob will vary over time while a decent LFO will be relatively stable over time. I think we can sense that error (if not hear it), and that error is what I think contributes to interesting sound/music. They say guitar playing is all in the fingers. Keith Richards' feel will never be as precise as Steve Vai, but I know who I'd rather listen to. Of course no one else cares, but that's what makes something interesting to me.
Barring random and chaos modules, which can be unmusical in some uses, If we all have the same precise utilities, the same LFOs, Maths, Kinks, etc., there are only so many original combinations to make an interesting sound. What ultimately differentiates any of this music then? I would say the human error is what differentiates it all. Separating into utilities-are-more-important-than-oscillators (or vice versa) "camps" sort of takes away from the OP's fun thought exercise.

the modules appear to be dwarfed by the controller - almost an afterthought

if it was me bigger case, bigger modules - better ergonomics, better synth...

looks very low on mixing capability th eamix only has 3 channels and you have 5 + of drums

try refreshing the rack!

Something that is of interest to me in this discussion is the amount of cv vs. hands-on control that modules have. Is the machine doing the tweaking or is the human doing the tweaking when it comes to getting a great sound?
-- farkas
hmmm - does it really matter?

I tend to use modulation instead of wiggling knobs myself, I only have 2 hands and at the end of the day it really just comes down to taste, doesn't it? - I want to move this knob 30 degrees and back every 10 seconds - just plug in an attenuated lfo - does exactly the same thing

I have a friend who plays guitar - thinks he's good because he can play (strum) lots of different songs - and thinks that a guitar is an instrument and a synthesizer is a machine - although he does say I play guitar like a synth and synth like a guitar - I tell him that a guitar is just 6 analog oscillators and the ability to play is just a combination of muscle memory and taste

in the end it boils down to does it sound good - the harsh reality is that outside of a small group of musicians - no one cares how you make a sound, tune or indeed whole song - just whether it sounds good or not

I don’t think I’ve claimed a “camp” as far as oscillators vs. utilities or anything like that. Or at least I didn’t intend to. Just responding to the OP on what I like as far as sound sources. A Dixie or Minimod analog oscillator is not going to give you the same sound or experience as an E352 or Akemie’s Castle. What comes further down the audio or cv chain is definitely where the interesting stuff is, for sure, but having a good understanding of exactly what sound will come out if I turn a knob is an important choice in choosing sound sources. What may come out of the Recombination Engine on its own or with a broad array of utilities may be interesting, but unintentional.
Something that is of interest to me in this discussion is the amount of cv vs. hands-on control that modules have. Is the machine doing the tweaking or is the human doing the tweaking when it comes to getting a great sound?

I'm trying to put together a 60HP minimal techno drum setup with the Flux as my trigger sequencer. It can double as a modulator for a few of my drum modules and I have 4hp left. The WMD Fracture isn't viewable on this setup for some reason, so please keep that in mind. Is there anything you can suggest? I'm not closed to subtracting a module and adding something else you might find more fitting? Thanks for taking the time to read this post.

Here's my setup so far:

EDITED Sep 9th 2021, 17:57

I'm in the other camp. The modulation sources and utilities are the "sauce" that makes the sound great (doing best Tony The Tiger impression).

If you want to swap out different oscillators/sound generators to get different timbres... cool. But it's the other bits that do the heavy lifting in great sounds.

Using a standalone hardware sampler that lends itself to modular is going to work a lot better than sampler purpose built for modular.

-- Ronin1973

+1

The use of samples or digitally recorded audio in modular is more of an adjunct than a method for sample playback. You'd have less expense and more success using something like an Akai MPC Live MkII. It will allow for you to load libraries of sounds as well as interface with the modular synthesis world.

That looks like an awesome machine, but seems to be more beat oriented? Doesn’t look like it has the exact tools I’m looking for, although would probably be great for sequencing modular etc.
-- ethanlawrence

It's used by a lot of beat makers but it's not limited in that way. When you speak of loading libraries of sounds, especially orchestral, some simple Eurorack sample playback module isn't going to cut it. I'm still chuckling. There would be so much manual set-up to get anything decent. The Eurorack sample playback/recorder hardware is usually very barebones. They aren't going to playback anything close to standardized multi-sampled kits like Kontakt etc. The polyphony is going to lack as well as any tools for management.

Using a standalone hardware sampler that lends itself to modular is going to work a lot better than sampler purpose built for modular.

@cmb_ , @GarfieldModular - thanks for your feedback :)

Actually I tried and updated the suggestion: Beads leaves an extra 2Hp for Shakmat Sum-Dif which would also help greatly!
Just click on the link to see the updated rework. Don‘t know how to Update the thing here..

Also maybe rethink the Complex VCO, you already have two Ringmods (wogglebug and Serge) and two waveshapers in there Maybe go for two simpler oscillators (Buchla 258 Clone?) or the Serge New Timbral oscillator plus another one?
But that‘s maybe taking it too far from the Original Idea.

Cheers.
-- Cangore

I just clicked on the link. Thanks for the input! That's given me something to think about! I haven't come across that Buchla clone before. Hi Ho, it's off to YouTube I go. :)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Nifty case isn't rackmountable, nor is it 3U. Or is there another version?

I like your module choices, especially the LxD and RND, thanks! I think you're right, I should be aiming for fewer, but larger, modules.
-- asleepwheel

Hi, sorry, I didn't pick up that you wanted it rack-mountable. My bad :). Yep, I love the LxD - it sounds nice to my ears and has two different flavours in 4hp. The RND is very useful too, for such a tiny module.

Hi,

Modular meet saturday september 11th.

https://m.facebook.com/events/369138091466615

Cheers

EDITED Sep 9th 2021, 14:16

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Nifty case isn't rackmountable, nor is it 3U. Or is there another version?

I like your module choices, especially the LxD and RND, thanks! I think you're right, I should be aiming for fewer, but larger, modules.

Thank you!

Actually I tried and updated the suggestion: Beads leaves an extra 2Hp for Shakmat Sum-Dif which would also help greatly!
Just click on the link to see the updated rework. Don‘t know how to Update the thing here..

Also maybe rethink the Complex VCO, you already have two Ringmods (wogglebug and Serge) and two waveshapers in there Maybe go for two simpler oscillators (Buchla 258 Clone?) or the Serge New Timbral oscillator plus another one?
But that‘s maybe taking it too far from the Original Idea.

Cheers.

EDITED Sep 9th 2021, 14:00

Mimeophon would still fit with those two, not exatcly a small delay thing, maybe Chronoblob or even Beads (which I think you talked about wanting before) would too.

Just wanted to check. Maybe some reorganization would be needed.

All the Best,
Chris

EDITED Sep 9th 2021, 13:42

Hey Cangore,
Thanks so much for the advice. I think you are right. I guess the Maths I have fulfils some of those functions, which I won't get with the Random Source DUSG. Interesting. I've not heard of the SSF Toolbox. That looks ultra useful. Perhaps that and Shades might work. I take your point about Magneto, although as I said, part of my plan is to avoid smaller modules - especially if I plan to tweak them. I'm still not 100% on the Verbos Complex Oscillator. I can't really decide on that or the DPO or the Furtherrr Generator (or whatever it's called) without hearing them in person...

Thanks too, for what you say about my videos. I'm never sure whether the world needs more amateur videos about Eurorack, but it's nice to know that you enjoyed them. I haven't made one for a while (partly because of things going on) and also just laziness and my focus being aimed elsewhere at the moment. I do plan to make some more though - I have my Nifty Case patched up with a patch I like that I'm waiting to film...

A rackmount case that doesn't require 4hp for power sounds interesting, do you have a link?

I have indeed studied the small racks suggested by Lugia. His feedback posts are a wonderful resource here and I discovered several of the modules in my proposed rack from his suggestions. I suspect I will be doing some iterative experiments with this, for example my idea of using the input attenuators on the VCAs as a mixer is something I'll have to try out to see if it meets my needs.

-- asleepwheel

Hi, I have the Nifty Case. I quite like it. 84hp with power, two channels of midi to CV, plus a clock and the case itself is quite nicely built. As everyone says, though, you will probably very soon wish you'd bought a bigger case - although I do quite like having a small case personally. It fits on my desk nicely. But I filled it with some not quite so small modules. Here are my choices:

A rackmount case that doesn't require 4hp for power sounds interesting, do you have a link?

I have indeed studied the small racks suggested by Lugia. His feedback posts are a wonderful resource here and I discovered several of the modules in my proposed rack from his suggestions. I suspect I will be doing some iterative experiments with this, for example my idea of using the input attenuators on the VCAs as a mixer is something I'll have to try out to see if it meets my needs.

Hey ModLifeCrisis,
I‘ve been enjoying your Youtube Videos for quite a while now, I really like them. It‘s been quite obvious to me for a while now this is going to happen.
Must say I‘m all about it and this seems alot like „You“.
However I‘d miss some utilities in there, polarizers, rectifiers. Kinks, FrapTools 333, Shades, something along those lines. I think those would help alot with patch programmability. Maybe the ssf Toolbox might be a good fit?
Also Magneto seems a little big to me. Maybe you could shrink it into something else (same with xpan?) to make room.

All the Best and please continue your Video Series!
Chris

EDITED Sep 9th 2021, 11:34

To me, that all looks a bit cramped and (I'm not sure why) a bit ugly. I wouldn't enjoy playing with it. Could you get a rack that is powered? You could do without the power supply then and gain a few more hp? Just my two cents... best of luck with it all.

I'm planning a second rack. My guiding principles have been large modules, old school synthesis and a west coast bias. I'd like it so that I can experiment with patch programability, sonic exploration and happy accidents where I haven't a clue what's going on. I'd also like to think it could create some really pretty sounds too. I don't need it to be self contained in a band-in-a-box way, but I would like to feel that I won't be needing to reach for any other modules when I'm playing with it. It would be great to hear what people think of my selection so far... thanks :)

It is asking a lot to just be starting in modular AND to design a solid small build.

My best suggestion is to look up forum user Lugia (who is super good at rack design) and review several of his small to medium racks. Notice the balance of modules: approximate % of things that make sound, % of things that make control signal, % of other stuff that a modular needs to run. Notice the “must have” items which appear in most racks. As Jim said, there’s a base complement of utilities that are a must for most stand alone rigs. If you seriously study 5-10 of those racks it will answer a ton of your questions and put you in a better position to get a good initial plan.

That said, there’s maybe no substitute to getting in the game, making a few mistakes, and learning by trial and error what will suit you. That also argues for a bigger case; so you have room to experiment and grow. If you can afford it, two cases would be good. A tiny one to suit your small footprint goals, and a bigger one to give you some room to experiment. Or in software using VCVrack to try some of your ideas, that can help too.

Good luck!

why the constraint on size? masochism?

these maybe the modules you want but you do not have the modules you need to get the modules you want to play together nicely

you are trying to do too much in too small a space and you will probably have an unpleasant playing experience

there are at least 5 potential voices there - and no mixing - so it won't work as you expect anyway - in fact it just won't work

throw it away and strip back your requirements to the bare minimum and start again - preferably in a bigger case (Mantis is good and reasonably priced as is the lc9) so that you may actually enjoy playing your instrument

U made my train time to the office very enjoyable today.
Thanks for the inspiring music 🙂

Thanks - enjoyed these - quite delicious.

Quite gorgeous - thanks for sharing.

Fractio Solumn by Noise Engineering is maybe not my favorite but it makes all the other ones shine. It is a clock divider and multiplier that does mainly fractions, think three in gives four out or why not five in and seven outs. It becomes King Crimson playing batucada very quickly.

Precisely. The module outputs four sines, but each output is offset from the previous one by 90 degrees. So if you were to use each quadrature out to, say, control the Veils, what you would get is a continuous overlap of the different VCA outs, fading in and out of each quadrature-controlled VCA. This can also have some fun with the 321 and especially the Sirius' Veil, plus you might find a couple of these outputs amusing for modulating the FX Aid XL by using the 180-degree-opposed outs.

-- Lugia

Cool...thanks Lugia! Any thoughts on my filter dilemma? I had planned on Sirius' Veil but am wondering if I should opt for Neutron Flux (yes more $ but for my smaller setup maybe a lot more filter flexibility?)...had also looked at Moonphase from Patching Panda. Nothing against Void Modular but he doesn't currently have very good documentation on his modules...still toying around with Gravitational Waves...not that I don't love to tinker but a little guidance documentation would be nice :)

• Pros/Cons to this approach when compared to a daw?

Well, it sort of requires a DAW or some other VST host so that you can run the translation from the control skiff's CV/gate/trig outputs to what the outboard sampler wants to see. There are modules that could do this directly, but the ability to precisely calibrate and route the outgoing MIDI calls is something that really belongs in "the box".

• What main sequencer could I pair with the sampler? Would have to be complex enough to run a large amount of voices, and not be entirely loop based (continue to move to the next sections of the song), jump to certain sections?

There are several that could work here...have a look in the "Sequencer" section and see which of the more complex devices offer the feature set your music requires. Some suggestions: Five12's Vector, Winter Modular's Eloquencer, 1010's Toolbox, Orthagonal's ER-101/102 pair, Zetaohm's FLXS1, Squarp's Hermod, or Malekko's Voltage Block/Varigate 8+ pair. ACL's Sinfonion also works as something of a "sequencing harmonic quantizer", makes a great pairing with any of these.

• I’m sure the modulation sources would be helpful in making it feel alive - is there some way to play parts in non quantized? A “humanizer” function (could be done within the rack)?

Plenty of those...dig around in the "clock modifiers", "controllers" and/or "utility" sections. There are even stochastic "skip" modules that drop a pulse or two depending on what level of potential change you've dialed in.

• Is there a possibility for cv controlled sample switching (e.g. different velocities)? Crossfading between sample velocities?

-- ethanlawrence

There should be. In modular, you've got piles and piles of different modules that can be linked together to build just about anything needed. It's just a matter of rooting around on MG until the exact bits pop up. I should note, though, that what you're describing needs a sequencer that's also got storable patches...and yep, there's possibilities all over the place. But since we're really talking about a controller here, what I prefer might not be what works in your situation...that's why I'm keeping things kind of open-ended here.

Although...one other thing that might be of use with a rig of this sort would be Soundmachine's Arches controller. Since everything on that is user-definable, you basically can rewrite what it does on the fly, store values and setups, etc etc etc. That could easily be rigged to send suitable sysex messages to the sampler itself as well.

One other point: the outboard sampler itself is perfect for dealing with multisampled sets, but when you rig that up with a FD replacement that uses SD or thumb drive memory, you can store MASSIVE amounts of sample sets on those when compared with the typical onboard HD found on those. If you'd thought that those old rack samplers were over and done, you really NEED to see what results when you update with one of those FD replacements!

before I went down the path of just adding another VCO (Richter Wogglebug, MANGROVE, Loquelic Iteritas, Manis Iteritas, Cursus Iteritas were in the HP range I was considering) I did searches on primary=VCO secondary=LFO because I was wondering if I had LFO covered but then remembered I have Maths and Quadrax (I just today got notification that Perfect Circuit has QX Expander in and ordered immediately!!) so figured I had that realm pretty well covered. Is the Doepfer you recommend sort of a 'specialty' VCO/LFO module then?
-- jb61264

Precisely. The module outputs four sines, but each output is offset from the previous one by 90 degrees. So if you were to use each quadrature out to, say, control the Veils, what you would get is a continuous overlap of the different VCA outs, fading in and out of each quadrature-controlled VCA. This can also have some fun with the 321 and especially the Sirius' Veil, plus you might find a couple of these outputs amusing for modulating the FX Aid XL by using the 180-degree-opposed outs.

+1 on Ronin's solution here...plus, that extra 1 hp is perfect for a PWRchekr so you can keep an eye on your DC rails' health.

One other "odd number" solution that I like to include on builds: https://www.modulargrid.net/e/konstant-lab-pwr-checker-wh

1 hp...and I have to concur with KonstantLabs here - this IS the most useful 1 hp device ever, period, especially if your cab has no visible DC rail indicators.

Thanks, Garfield! As always, you're incredibly kind!