Revised proposed synth based upon comments I received

Your continued comments are greatly appreciated.

it'd really help if you posted a link to the actual rack and not a patch based on it - no mouse-over infographics or click through...

you do realise that mutable instruments peaks and clouds are discontinued - I'm also pretty sure that the sputnik mixer and rosie are the same... both peaks and clouds are available as clones in various sizes - and both of them and the other 2 may be available as used modules - but it's generally better planning on modules that are available - clouds has been replaced by beads

how do I post a link to it? Where do I find the link and then how do I post it.

I already own Clouds, and just purchased a used Peaks today for a good price.

Thanks again for taking the time to look it over.

Dan

ok now the link is in - I can see stuff

cool you have peaks and clouds - great modules...

now I can rip into it

it seems very heavy on sound sources - not just the fact that imo there are too many in this size case, but they also take up too much space and there's not really enough support modules - sound modifiers, modulation sources and especially utilities - to do the number of sound sources justice...

top row:
Pams - good

now I'm assuming here that your intention is to use peaks primarily as a kick/snare - combined with the hats to make a simple percussion set up - nothing wrong with that - but I'd suggest a simple sub-mixer so you can process - filter etc the kit as one - maybe a cp3 type one that can add a bit of dirt (manhattan analog perhaps)

there's then 3 vcos - are you intending to use these as single voices? how are you going to shape notes - or are you just using them as drones? not enough vcas... not enough filters... otherwise if you are intending to use them to create a complex voice - again, there's no sub-mixing or waveshaping in the case & both the dixie and sto could benefit from sub-mixers in order to mix their waveforms before filtering etc - & I'd definitely drop the synthrotek - they don't have a good reputation for building reliable modules or customer support from what I've heeard and well ethically only the b-company really surpass them in scraping the bottom of the barrel

elements - great module - but in a case this size it's on the large size to put it mildly - I'd be tempted to switch it out for a rings - worthwhile comparing the 2 there's a lot of overlap...

es9 good - not used one but I hear they're great - can be used as an eoc mixer - if configured properly via midi (you might want an extra module to do this - or just diy some midi connectors into the case)

1u: NB I'd always get a 3rd 3u row over a 1u row the cost in terms of rails etc is the same but they only hold 1/4 of the functionality and I've never seen a compelling module that's only available in 1u & 3.5" is, well, only 3.5" - but others seem to like them...

o&c - it's popular... not convinced...

zeroscope - again not convinced - as you have the es9 I'd just use a free one in vcv rack - when needed - I've got an es8 and quite frankly I've never found a need for a scope yet in over 5 years

2 sub-mixers - it's a good start... but you've used one for the drums and one for dixie - you need more of these...

cockpit - well at least it's not as annoying as the 3u version - inputs aren't on stereo jacks... but I think it's kind of superfluous - in that it's over specified for a sub-mixer - and there's a mixer in the es9 and then there's the sputnik - but see below for that

bottom row:
evolution - a big filter - maybe too big in this size case

octone - hmm - looks complicated - and it only has one pitch out - which is fine but then I'd want a buffered mult to send the pitch accurately to different sound sources - personally I'd want a 3-4 track sequencer in here given the number of sound sources

qpas - again a big filter and too big - I think I'd want at least 3 filters given the number of sound sources - 1 for the percussion, 1 for the sto, 1 for dixie...

adsr - again synthrotek - see above - but do you really need a adsr? I'd want more envelopes -but I'd probably use Pams - and you have...

Maths - brilliant module - download the 'maths illustrated supplement' work your way through it a few times and use it as a jumping off point for patch-programming - one of the most powerful techniques in modular - but saying that I'd also want all the basic functionality duplicated in other modules - why? because when you use Maths for something interesting (ie something you've patch programmed it to do - bouncing ball etc etc) then you can't really use it for anything else - and if you use it as 2 basic envelopes/lfos and a couple of attenuverters - then you can't useit for anything interesting...

quad vca - good start - I'd want more - they're not just for audio - they're incredibly useful for modulation too - I'd go veils over this as it's got a few more useful features - ok it's an extra 2hp and a little more expensive - but it has 20db of gain so can be used as an external input, it has offsets and it is continuously variable between exponential and linear responses - the doepfer can be either linear or exponential iirc, but to change it you have to take it out of the rack and move jumpers.... pita

sputnik mixer - as far as I am aware this is another very difficult to get hold of module - sputnik may or may not be producing modules again... and I've also heard of reliability/build quality issues - but i don't know for certain - plus the es9 has mixing capabilities...

rosie - as I mentioned above I think this is discontinued - the xoh is the replacement - but do you really need an output module when you have the es9? I've never needed one other than for headphones - and there are smaller ways of dealing with that - and the es9 has headphone outs

I wrote a really long reply, but when I was to submit I had been kicked off. UGH
I work on it again a little latter.
Thank you so much for your help
(I'll try the little "keep me logged in" button and see if it works)

I wrote a really long reply, but when I was to submit I had been kicked off. UGH
I work on it again a little latter.
Thank you so much for your help
(I'll try the little "keep me logged in" button and see if it works)
-- Dano

np - it happens to us all - I have it at least once per day - best thing to do is select and copy all the response before posting - that way it's on the clipboard when you log in again - the keep me logged in checkbox doesn't function particularly well!!

Hi Jim:

Perhaps a little background would be in order:
I have been playing synth modelers and samplers most of my life. Last fall I though I would try a semi-modular rig. I bought the "O" suite from Make Noise. So organic I fell in love.

Later, I was about to donate a beautiful humidor as I quit smoking cigars, when I thought I would repurpose it into a synth. I was interested in ambient sounds so the rig has: Plaits, Rings, Marbles, SBG and Disting MK4.

Ah but then I was minding my own business when an incredible deal on a partially outfitted eurorack became available on Reverb. I snapped it up. The case was a basic raw pine 6U 104hp with power and: STO, Evolution, Elements, Octone, Clouds, and Sputnik.

Next I found an amazing military ammo bunker from WWI which I am repurposing into a 7U 104hp case. This is the project you are now witnessing. Since then, recently, I have purchased: ES-9, Doepfer VCA, DixieII, O_c, Peaks, Pams, and Cockpit.

I have Beatstep Pro (4 voice cv/gate/mod) sequencer, Erica Synths Bassline desktop (with LFO, Filter, Envelop and VCA), TR-8s. Plus loads of guitars, keyboards, and Ableton Push which I run through Ableton Live; and several acoustic string and wind instruments.

I am struggling with what I want this project to be and you are seeing that playout. I love ambient but afraid I may get bored. I love generative sounds. But ultimately would like to be able to coordinate everything for melodies and harmonies backing vocals. Also, I'd like to be able to just create Eurorack music as a standalone project.

I'm trying to keep the ES-9 in mind but it is tough. As you know I jettisoned the sampler in favor of Pam/Peaks/Hat modules. Ableton has an amazing sampler that I can use. I needed to sub-mix my VCO voices which is why I went with Cockpit plus it has side chain compression (although now I realize I could have used DAW/ES-9).

Anyway, I can return the Synthrotek models. I purchased them as DIY projects but are not opened and the sales manager has been wonderful to work with there. I like the QPAS mostly because I like Make Noise, and I wanted something different. But maybe I can fit a couple more VCAs (wasp?) in this space.

I'll take another shot at this and see what you think.

I don't know how you became the sherpa for novice patchers like myself, but God bless you. You are just what I need. Thanks again for taking all the time to review and comment in a meaningful way on this layout.

All the best,
Dan

Hi Jim:

Perhaps a little background would be in order:
I have been playing synth modelers and samplers most of my life.

hahaha - you know that copy and paste trick I recommended above - didn't take my own advice!!! hahahaha

anyway - me too - no samplers though - but synths, guitars and recording equipment - starting at 7 with guitar - and you can work out how old I am from my username... I was staring at my trio of moogerfoogers and the cp251 controller, remembering seeing a eurorack synth in a music store that had closed and reading I think the first article about eurorack in sound on sound...

I have Beatstep Pro (4 voice cv/gate/mod) sequencer, Erica Synths Bassline desktop (with LFO, Filter, Envelop and VCA), TR-8s. Plus loads of guitars, keyboards, and Ableton Push which I run through Ableton Live; and several acoustic string and wind instruments.

similar but logic and no wind instruments! and less guitars - some went to fund my first video synth modules...

I am struggling with what I want this project to be and you are seeing that playout. I love ambient but afraid I may get bored. I love generative sounds. But ultimately would like to be able to coordinate everything for melodies and harmonies backing vocals. Also, I'd like to be able to just create Eurorack music as a standalone project.

I think ambient and generative are huge catch alls - and either or both could keep a person interested for a lifetime if they were so inclined...

I'm trying to keep the ES-9 in mind but it is tough.

please explain further...

As you know I jettisoned the sampler in favor of Pam/Peaks/Hat modules. Ableton has an amazing sampler that I can use. I needed to sub-mix my VCO voices which is why I went with Cockpit plus it has side chain compression (although now I realize I could have used DAW/ES-9).

not convinced this is a great use case for cockpit - and whilst I have compressor modules with side chain capabilities - I often just patch this up from basic building lock modules...

Anyway, I can return the Synthrotek models. I purchased them as DIY projects but are not opened and the sales manager has been wonderful to work with there. I like the QPAS mostly because I like Make Noise, and I wanted something different. But maybe I can fit a couple more VCAs (wasp?) in this space.

if it's not going to break the bank, keep them and use them as soldering practice - and debugging practice...

wasp's a filter not a vca!

I'll take another shot at this and see what you think.

I don't know how you became the sherpa for novice patchers like myself, but God bless you. You are just what I need. Thanks again for taking all the time to review and comment in a meaningful way on this layout.

All the best,
Dan

-- Dano

Never believed in a god to bless me - but thank you for the sentiment...

EDITED Feb 22nd 2022, 19:52

I've been working my way through your comments.
Sorry, I meant Wasp for a filter. I think you suggested I try to maintain 3 filters, so to replace the 18hp Qpas I could put the Wasp and Polaris by Intellijel (looks pretty good). If I needed to save 2 hp I could go with Ripples 8hp and wasp 8hp for a total of 16 hp; saving 2 hp for another envelope.

So here is where I'm confused. You asked if I needed another ADSR (Synthrotek) but believed you would add another envelope. I thought ADSR was an envelope. Could you explain further? What am I looking for?
Dan

yes but an adsr is a very specific envelope...
they are usually used for keyboards - not necessarily something that you always need in a modular synth - a lot of people just use AD envelopes - or more complex ones, like from zadar...

Okay, I'm learning a lot.
Here is another attempt:
1. removed the Synthrotek VCO and ADSR
2. Added Filter 8
3. Added Zadar
4. Added another 2 channel VCA with linear and exp. (it's in an odd place on the second row near the ES-9 but it's the only place I could go, unless I placed it nearer the "drum" module and consider use it mostly for drum voices.
Thoughts?
Am I triangulating on this or spinning into the galaxy?
Dan

Jim:
sorry here is the URL:

I've done some more work. Let's see if I can summarize it.

Removed Synthrotek VCO and Hat, replaced with KNIT a 4 hp clone of Plaits which I love; has nice percussive timbres as well as other ambient sounds (it goes where the open spot is, I have tried pasting the url twice and each time this module is missing...some kind of glitch I imagine. Use Peaks for Kick and Snare, or for it's LFO or Env as I wish.

I removed zeroscope (will use ES-9) replaced with a stereo mixer. Can I use Mosaic as a sub-mixer for drums processing? I don't know if it's buffered, and don't know if it needs to be. Thoughts?

I removed Rosie :( She can go in my next case :), added a dvca with lin/exp ability and moved it next to my Quad linear VCA.

I removed Synthrotek ADSR and replaced with Zadar (I think this is an amazing EG).

I removed QPAS and added Filter 8 by Joranalogue (more ladder filters but great sound), and added a gutsy SVF by Zlob.

As always, I look forward to your feedback.

All the best, Dan

kind of looking better

not convinced you need more stereo mixers unless the mixer has panning for mono inputs, which could be on a knob/trimmer and set and forget - for example pan hats slightly to the left or right to simulate someone playing or listening to a drum kit, otherwise you just end up with LCR mixing, which is fine... but not necessarily what you want/need all the time - or an auto panner, either patched from basic building blocks (an lfo, a mult, an inverter and a couple of vca channels) - or a dedicated module - I'd use the patching method if I wanted it as I don't really use auto panning - except for delays and the delay handles that for me...

NB mostly I just use centred mono percussion... which also means I only need a mono filter - if I want to filter percussion - before possibly sending to a mono->stereo reverb

plaits is great - but I can't imagine using a smaller version that the real thing... I'd've stuck to the 2hp hats - or found something else 4hp or under just to do hats - I think plaits is also adding too much in too small a space - it points towards too many voices in too small a space (for me at least)... a simple percussion kit (peaks and hats), sto, dixie and elements (4 voices) is pushing it in this size case imo - but adding plaits, kind of pushes it more out towards 5, which is definitely too much because there's too little in the way of support modules...

but do remember - I'm only giving advice and saying what I'd do and how I think - it's not prescriptive and at the end of the day you have to do what you want and learn by your own mistakes...

Setting the stereo mixer and zeroscope aside for the moment. I went back through you notes where you mentioned a CP3. I didn't know what that was which may be the reason I forgot about it. Now it starts to make sense. I pulled Plaits and put back in the Hats module and the Manhattan Analogue CP3.

Is this more in the direction of your guidance?

Dan

I'm so sorry, for some reason it doesn't pick up the two modules (Hats, CP3). I'm going to try to send a patch image next

Setting the stereo mixer and zeroscope aside for the moment. I went back through you notes where you mentioned a CP3. I didn't know what that was which may be the reason I forgot about it. Now it starts to make sense. I pulled Plaits and put back in the Hats module and the Manhattan Analogue CP3.

Is this more in the direction of your guidance?

Yes, Dan

use the cp3 to mix the percussion - you can get a nice bit of grit from the cp3... then you can send too a mono filter...

nb - the manhattan analogue cp3 is now called the DTM - moog's lawyers wrote them a cease and desist...

nb - the manhattan analogue cp3 is now called the DTM - moog's lawyers wrote them a cease and desist...

-- JimHowell1970

Might be nice if one could actually get a Moog-branded CP3...or anything else modular that's not a take-it-or-leave-it prebuild-only reissue.

@Lugia - hehhe yeah I know what you mean... it's a pity they didn't see the coming of the b-company storm - and dump all their old 5u modules into eurorack at a reasonable price - like buchla with tiptop - but and I quote from moog "the eurorack market's just not big enough" (a few years back iirc) - you can see what they mean, to some extent - the last run of sub37s was 1500 units if I remember correctly from their instagram feed... and that's a synth that's been around a few years... so they tend to want products that sell in the 10K+ unit range rather than the 1-2k+ unit range - shame, really, but I think the boat's passed - unless they can find someone like tiptop or malekko (who did the roland modules) to do the work and just take the cash for designing and verifying...

they even have the moogerfoogers and cp251 that would be relatively easy to convert to eurorack as well as the system 55 etc modules...

I quote from moog "the eurorack market's just not big enough" (a few years back iirc)
-- JimHowell1970

Reminds me of the derp from IBM back in the late 1950s that said that, in total, the world will really only need five or six computers. Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmno.

I quote from moog "the eurorack market's just not big enough" (a few years back iirc)
-- JimHowell1970

Reminds me of the derp from IBM back in the late 1950s that said that, in total, the world will really only need five or six computers. Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmno.

-- Lugia

and Bill Gates saying no-one will ever need more than 640k of memory (or whatever it was)...

I think I've got 6-7 computers (only use 1 at the moment though and 5 are effectively antiques) - and a phone that's (near) infinitely more powerful than any computer that was around in the 50s...

I wrote a really long reply, but when I was to submit I had been kicked off. UGH

Sorry for that! I have now uploaded a patch that will continuously buffer the text to the local storage of your browser.
This should survive page reloads as well as a logout, meaning if you are kicked out just log in, hit Reply again and your long texts hopefully will still be there.