HI All,

Thanks Farkas, Jim, Nick and Lugia :) I will file the suggestions and look into them further. Farkas it was after reading one of your posts that I got the idea for putting the links and kinks down the side of the case so thanks for that. I think that was a good shout in one of your previous posts.

For now, I think I have managed to sort out a compromise as I am not wanting to invest in another case. I think I may next year when the Buchla clones come out (thanks for posting about that Lugia) but for now I feel I have much more than I realistically need.

I normally use the second Intellijel case for melodies and bass and the first one for drums and percussion. That being said, I can normally get a lot of stuff going just playing with the the first Intellijel case. I can use the BIA for bass and percussion and a solid kick if need be, as well as melodies. I love that thing. The plaits for melodic lines or percussion and the squid for drums and rhythm and there is plenty of modulation opportunities in that case now I've reorganised it. I gotta say the 1u format is a stroke of genius by developers and really helps utilising space better. You can also do a lot with the squid on the last 3 triggers as they have 1v per octave for pitch if the samples are tuned right.

I have moved the mx-1 mixer to the weedy whizz cab and will patch into if it needed which means I can move the RCD to the second Intellijel case. I already have a mosaic mixer in the 1U row so will see how I feel using this more than the mx-1 which I found incredibly useful when patching the output into one of the inputs to drive signals into saturation.

I am using the Quantermain in the O&C for quantizing the different voltages but I also have scale effects in the Hermod for this if required. The metropolis can also be used to set scales but I tend to use the O&C if I am mixing sequencer CV's with random voltages or offsets to get everything quantized.

I don't like heavy wavefolding but can recommend the tanh for this if you like the wave folding to be subtle. The rubicon 2 has a the squish circuit built into it which can be light and I use this regularly and if I need it stronger its a case of setting a jumper on the back of the unit or a trim pot if I recall correctly from the manual.

I wanted to keep the Clep Diaz in the first case as I want to try to see how I can utilise the clep with the nin expander to step through lfo's and see what effect this has on the many envelopes in the zadar. I'm using the RCD a lot with the Quadra particularly with the rotate function which gives me the unpredictability that Nick was alluding to I guess. So for now, the two Intellijel cases look like this with 2hp to spare - any ideas what would be useful? :) I think I might get a 2hp cv mixer there I think.

I am yet to buy the matrix mixer in the weedy whizz cab which I think will be used to set up sends to my ACL delay and fx aid for reverb when I'm not using the ES8.

https://imgur.com/a/k15ySBQ

Regards :)

EDITED Oct 1st 2021, 00:08

Hey @Lugia - I know you know - but others such as @nickgreenberg & @Vow3ll didn't and neither do a lot of the newbies who are buying into the b-company products simply because they are so cheap - a lot of whom would probably not buy their products if they knew about who they were giving their money to - and there are other manufacturers who are making modules at similar price points, and of often better quality, but don't have the marketing budget that Music Tribe has , nor to a large extent do a lot of modular companies want

as I said they are making, in terms of circuitry, decent clones - they are just not going that one step further and actually making them fully eurorack compatible, which if they'd actually listened to eurorack users they could have done, as well as making the front panel furniture of comparable quality with other eurorack manufacturers and still make modules that were (almost as) incredibly cheap as they are doing because of the economies of scale that they can achieve - including getting components at lower price points due to manufacturing a lot of the components they are using themselves

yes he does seem to have shut up recently - I suspect the board of Music Tribe may have had a hand in this and good for them

but Uli shutting up after saying those things does not alter the fact that he said those things...

don't quite a few of the 100 series already exist in eurorack? - Tokyo Tape Music Center and Catalyst/Red Panel for example, ok they are much more expensive than either the b-company or the tiptop/buchla modules, but they are tiny companies in comparison, who can't afford to make huge runs of modules

don't get me wrong I think the availability of, especially, long out of production musical instruments at a low price is a good thing - I just think it's a shame that a company with such a poor reputation has done it... as you've repeatedly said korg deserve to suffer over the 2600... but so do the b-company over their practices...

I forgot one...and it's definitely a "holy grail" filter: the Rohde & Schwarz UBM. However, this ancient tube-driven bit of WDR Cologne's electronic music history (especially in Stockhausen's hands) is VERY screwy. Tubes, of course, are AUTOMATICALLY screwy, but whatever's going on inside these huge gray boxes (I have two) is NOT simple filtering. Push the input, and you get warm, wooly fuzziness. Run up the regeneration control, and the filter first acts LPF-ish, but then gets into a NASTY, ringy passband configuration with that Q rising as the control is raised.

What does it sound like? OK, it's all over this: along with a few other filters, but the UBM handles the bulk of the load on this work. Frankly, I'd love to see one of the tube-oriented Eurorack companies take on a challenge like this...and it could be lucrative, too, given that there's only a finite number of these still in operation and when one pops up, the feeding frenzy gets INTENSE.

Thank you, thank you!

+1 on farkas' suggestion. Actually, these days it probably makes more sense to NOT use passive mults unless you're putting something huge together, because we now have inline mults, stackcables, and so on. With smaller cabs and skiffs, though, it's far more important to dedicate the case space to ACTIVE devices and leave passive mults as something better dealt with while patching, along with the cables.

Oh, believe me, I'm well aware of Uli's...uhm..."mindset". And he's still apparently on that cavalier attitude of his toward intellectual property. But when you're talking about the synth gear, you find some of the same names here on MG assisting B. in their module and synth designs. For example, you had AM Synths' head assisting with the B. 2600, double-checking the circuitry, functionality, etc to make sure it was dead-on to the original. And yeah...they did that. Aside of form factor, it's the real thing.

My hope is that there might be some changes to this. After the "Kirn fiasco", Uli's been a lot less noisy and/or visible, of which I approve. If Tribe's board of directors would step in to shut him up and curtail his nonsense, I think they'd find that their brands would have a lot more market viability.

Also, don't forget...there's a bunch of REAL modules in there, too...notably the upcoming Tiptop/Buchla collabs. Frankly, what I'd REALLY like would be a full-on 100/200 hybrid, especially since now they can make the 100 series circuitry comply with the de facto "standard" of +5V gate/trig, 1V/8va tracking, and the higher amplitude across the board (ie: no more split paths). Maybe if the docs turn up, we could get some of these to jam in with the 200s; yes, docs ARE the problem...some of the more interesting 200 series modules don't have engineering docs, and Buchla USA has no idea where in Don's archives they might be found. To say that he was a slob as far as records and documentation goes might be an understatement! Hopefully Todd Barton et al can get some of that sorted.

agreed - but don't think that you can avoid the b-company completely...
they make a lot of re-issue ICs etc - which are in a large number of modules, from a large number of manufacturers

EDITED Feb 27th 2023, 07:10

Thanks Jim, make sense!

@Ronin1973,

I hear you on the "superstacking isn't an effect but a design". But I want to unpack/examine that idea as there are some potentially important technical points for recreating this and similar effects.

If we say the goal is the sound of "unison stack detune with stereo spread" then I'm aware of 4 potential ways of getting this or close to it:

1. use a synth or OSC designed to do "superstacking" (as Ronin suggested). Lots of VSTs do this (or very close to it): Serum, Sylenth, Zebra2, Icarus2, etc. Some Eurorack OSCs do this: Chainsaw and a few others. Some hardware does it (Waldorf Quantum and others). One can do a basic version of this with any multi-OSC setup; Moog Model-D with its 3 OSCs slightly detuned sounds great.

2. use an Animator like AJH Wave Swarm or Ladik L-011 Animator. Ladik's text says "Think of it as VCO extension – exact tone tuning ensures your VCO and Animator creates 8 phase-shifted and endlessly moving waveshapes summed to Animator´s output. Sounds like 9 slightly detuned VCOs together, sounds simply FAT (8 shifted waves + 1 original from input). Contains 8 phase shifters drived by 8 LFOs at 8 different frequencies (34 opamps total)." SO, as far as I can tell, the "animator" technique is like mult (of original) plus phase shift, plus LFOs modulating phase shift at very slow rates. The Ladik module has no controls, the AJH module has gain controls and 2 channels (which would allow for stereo / spread effect).

3. use delay-based effects (chorus and similar). While I love chorus and use it a lot, I do not find the chorused sound or controls equivalent to the "unison stack detune with stereo spread" sound or controls. It is close-ish, but often not close enough. The "artificial double tracking" VSTS like Melda MUnison and Waves Reel ADT I am less familiar with, but my understanding is those are also delay-based, and I don't recall those giving a sound like technique #1 above either.

4. use a combination of 2&3 as found in Kilohearts Ensemble. That's the only VST I know of that gives a software implementation including technique #2 above.

So Ronin, I don't really disagree with your point above. BUT I am trying to answer essentially the question: can techniques #2 and/or #4 above produce a sound similar to that of technique #1, e.g. similar to genuine superstacking? OR is there some other great solution I don't know about yet?

Practically, I'm wondering, if I do a sound design session on my rack and come up with this complex OSC chain I'm loving, is there a practical way for me to get the "unison stack detune with stereo spread" version of that sound? I would blow my brains out if I had to try to get a slightly detuned version of a complex OSC chain in 3+ parallel Eurorack voices (e.g. try to manually do technique #1 in Eurorack). I'm hoping something from techniques 2,3,4 above could work. AJH Wave Swarm is top of the consideration set currently.

Thanks for your ideas everyone!!

EDITED Sep 30th 2021, 21:10

historically (and continuing) poor quality - since the start of the company - way, way before they started on synthesizers/modular - currently this goes down to using poor quality glue on card inserts on knobs that fall off etc etc

cloning everything that he can get his hands on - mostly 'authentic' clones - so not a great deal of thought put into it - ie to make them more eurorack compatible

cloning modules that are still currently in production...

anti-semetic etc etc

suing people for giving poor reviews

etc etc

if you want more there's a fantastic thread on modwiggler - it's well over a hundred pages iirc - started to stop people commenting on these sorts of things in the main behringer module threads - which I think is poor judgement on modwiggler moderators part - anyone wanting to find information on b-company modules should have a lesson in the ethics of the company before deciding to buy - it's fine buying whatever you want - but you should at least be informed enough to make a decision!

Would somebody give me (and others not in the know on this) the short-ish polite-ish version of why Uli / Behringer has some negative market perception? Is it just all the clone-gear, or is it more than that?

but only in terms of 'his company made a module at a decent price that is comparatively rare, but incredibly useful'

I'd still rather give my money to people I at least perceive to be 'good people', either Dieter Doepfer or Dave Dixon (Dr Etch n Sketch - designer of quite a few Intellijel modules) who have both released frequency shifters - at about double the price of the b-company one - unlike Uli or Steve (?) from Synthrotek/Rat King for example

My filter wishlist:

Doepfer Wasp
Xaoc Devices Belgrad
Mannequin Three Sisters
Mutable Instruments Blades

What I have now

Rossum Morpheus Z plane filter
Erica Synths Black Polivoks v2
Erica Synths Dual Filter
Doepfer SEM
IME/Harvestman Bionic Lester
Schlappi Engineering Angle Grinder- can be a filter or oscillator.

ahhh - great
thanks a lot!

Superstacking isn't an effect but a design.

A superstack doesn't start with one oscillator. You are stacking MANY oscillators. So you'd have to buy that many physical oscillators, mix them in a stereo spread, filter them in stereo, and modulate them with stereo VCAs (two mono VCAs).

The greatest advantage of modern digital computing the shear amount of DSP that can be generated to create crazy stacks of voices that would be prohibitively expensive in the analog world.

EDITED Sep 30th 2021, 16:39

Purchased uFold II from @Cormallen fast transaction, great seller.

but you're still consciously giving Uli your money... which is up to you - I try not to - although it can't really be helped as they make a huge number of ICs that are in a wide variety of modules anyway...
-- JimHowell1970

The frequency shifter... Uli gets it right once in a while.

In your user preferences you find a drop down menu Country Selection.
Select a country within the EU there.
Click here: https://www.modulargrid.net/e/users/edit

Mantis power is very good - it's effectively the tiptop studio bus - it's really quiet right up to video rates (MHz) where ripple/noise is actually visible on screen

.

EDITED Mar 20th 2022, 23:29

Hi! First time poster here. Been lurking for some time.

I'm having trouble getting Modulargrid to show me EU merchants. I only get USA, Canada or Japan at the moment.
I've cleared my cookies etc. and re-logged in but that doesn't change anything. Using Firefox and running through a VPN using Zurich servers.
I know I used to see merchants from the likes of Music-store and Thomann in the past.
Can anyone help?

Thanks in advance!

Oh and yes, sort by price seems to work as expected now. Thanks for the fast fix!

If you have power left and run out of hp just call yourself lucky. Appreciate that your setup does not stress the PSU, it´s a much better place to be in compared to the opposite.

Also: If you go for new thingies, not all PSUs are created equal. For example, between my rackbrute and mantis, there is a HUGE difference regarding the power-on noise: the same module that POPS loudly in the rackbrute still pops in the mantis, but at a much more civilized level. And yes, this is a dediated output module and the level is set to zero. Still popping.

I´ve got the Wasp and love it for the more gritty things, as it´s a tad bit noisy. Love my AJH Gemini and generally like dual filters compared to patching two single. Totally understand the itch for K/Morgasmatron. Then again, there are things like the Serpent Modular Sirius, which I really like for its character. High on my wishlist are Bionic Lester and RT-451. Last buy was a wmd aperture, but can´t yet say if that is a keeper, as I only did a function test so far (used).

Not sure how far you can get with that budget, it may make more sense to stay in the software realm, which also has a few benefits over hardware (no I/O issues, total recall, instancing). You may easily end up editing things on the computer anyway. If you miss the hands-on, probably buy one or two MIDI controllers instead.

Hw or Sw, I´d say you would probably benefit more from FX than standard modules (although you still need a few of those). Maybe look for some purpose built tools like zynaptic wormhole or go "modular fx" with BIOME and the like.

If it has to be eurorack hardware, zoia euroburo comes to mind, but it wouldn´t be me first choice in the given scenario.

Yep for the first letter function, I sometimes just scroll up and down by the arrow keys as well. Still found it most convenient using the browser bookmarks if I´m in "hey, let´s see which VCAs the brands I trust have on their list".

it may also encourage anyone who hasn't put a price on their module to actually put one!

Not sure if that search shortlist will come but we have the Build Type option for DIY which I guess is an intersection for many open source projects.

This is at least more comfortable than scrolling through n pages in the vendor dropdown.

Maybe you already know, just a quick tip to make that faster: if the manufacturer dropbox is in focus or opened you can type the first letters of the name of the manufacturer to select him. Works on all select boxes.

I know most modular artists want cv over everything. I’m finding I like a better hands on interface at the expense of cv control, which is probably why I’m such an AJH fan. I love that Dual Contour Generator so much. Even though I wish it had cv control over rise and fall I’m considering getting a second one.

I like the option to filter by modules I own vs. all modules on this planet. Unfortunately, if you own any module multiple times, this is not reflected. That´s why I built an "inventory system", ie a rack that holds the exact numbers of things I own. Building a new system from this inventory is not very smooth, picking from a list works much better.

Same things goes for "modules I´m interested in". If one was able to have another list on the "all modules/my modules" level, this would be very convenient to pick from while building or editing a system.

TLDR: Can we have customs lists besides "all modules" and "my modules". Doesn´t have to be an unlimited number, but, say, 5 would be awesome.

Brainstorm to Feature Request :)

When looking for modules, I find myself repeating the same search over and over again, each time selecting a different vendor. Otherwise (=all vendors), I end up with hundreds of results I´m not interested in, sometimes because I had bad experiences with a certain brand, don´t like their style etc. Other people may want to exclude certain brands for any other reason, as seen in endless discussions around a certain brands ethics and whatnot. Or you want a list of known open source supporting companies as the foundation of your search.

It would be very helpful if we could multi-select in the vendor drop down.
It would be super awesome if we could build a shortlist of preferred vendors and recall that for a search.

My best workaround at the moment is saving bookmarks for every vendor selected. This is at least more comfortable than scrolling through n pages in the vendor dropdown.

Reasonable explanation @farkas, but nonetheless I remain greedy for CV control over all things.

Totally agree, better have a working solution that omits a few modules than having no function at all. Maybe add all modules that come without a price tag at the end, no matter which way you sort the list.

but you're still consciously giving Uli your money... which is up to you - I try not to - although it can't really be helped as they make a huge number of ICs that are in a wide variety of modules anyway...

it appears that the nifty case's midi implementation can cope with 2 cv/gate pairs - read the (fucking) manual - are they on the same midi channel? or different ones? how do you change this? can you change this?

once you know how the midi implementation works in the case, then consult the manual for how to set up the OPZ to take advantage of this! again RTFM!

I can't imagine that it is particularly difficult to do... probably just setting a value on the 2nd track in the OPZ in the menu system...

if you have any questions after you have done the above, please feel free to return and ask them below, however an OPZ or MIDI dedicated forum may be more useful to you...

On first glance, I think I would be tempted to remove the York passive mult and the 4ms buffered mult in the third case (you already have the buffered Links mult in case #1 and you could spend $20 for a few external splitters), move the 4ms Rotating Clock Divider from case #2 to case #3, and insert the Nin in case #2.

the simplest solution to me is:

take the clep diaz out in the short term & buy another case... and put clep diaz in it...

or better yet... put a decent handful of modules in it and get some blind panels...

similar to @nickgreenbergs solution - but you still get to keep all your cases - so you can have one or 2 that you can pull out

given the number of voices you have it would make sense to rationalize quantization across them - can't recommend the sinfonion enough for this...

I find separate cases easy to deal with - I have 6 and will add 2 more (well 2 * 6u/84 hp in 2 6u desktop racks)

I like this solution as it is easier to deal with individual cases on a power and maintenance level and I can have a couple that I can pull out for whatever reason to use standalone - 1 for audio, 1 for video, in my case!

I think the idea was to keep the Wave Swarm within the AJH 14hp footprint. CV over 12 LFOs would have made the module much larger, and might not have been all that musical with the clashing of the individually timed "beating" LFOs. More of a set it and forget it kind of module.

Do you use these 3 racks at the same time (like one big rack) or do you use them (and must they stay) independent?

If it's basically 1 big rack then I suggest you make one big MG rack reflecting all the modules, with like modules fairly nearby.

I see a lot of modules I like, but IMO it is harder to assess completeness/balance with the modules spread out like above.

Also, if you use these modules altogether, a maybe obvious suggestion is you invest in new case(s) which will give you more HP plus more chances to consolidate racks. Over time, I've moved to bigger cases, my small cases still end up getting used for various tasks (e.g. I don't find it a terrible waste to have a small case or two left over).

[Edit]... so I did just go through module by module. Lots of good stuff, seems like a reasonable balance of modules all considered. If it was my rig being used all together, what I'd be thinking about next would be some combination of:
-- a bigger case to put everything in and leave some room for expansion, plus enough blanks to fill voids safely
-- an active switch like Switchblade or BossBow2 so you can sequence your sequencers, switch audio at audio rate, etc.
-- a complex OSC like Cs-L (mainly because I love those types of things)
-- a couple wavefolders, lots of interest to be had on that front
-- Joranalogue Morph 4 for use with CV and or audio. A versitile and powerful unit
-- some NonLinearCircuits chaos and logic circuits (TripleSloths, Hypster, Neuron, etc) to add more unexpected stuff
-- PNW's 24PPQN expander plus extra mults for easy clocking everything else off of PNW (unless this sync issue is already handled)

In other words, if you like and use everything you have, why not keep it, add HP when you can, and cherry pick a couple great adds when possible?

If you have to keep to an HP/budget limit for whatever reason, I'd suggest you drop the biggest item you use the least. Last I should say, it's already a powerful rig, you could skip all the suggestions above and still have lots of great stuff to make sounds with!

EDITED Sep 30th 2021, 06:36

HI All

These are my racks at the moment but I want to incorporate the nin expander for the extra 4 cv inputs but I'm struggling to find space for it.

I'd be interested to hear thoughts on what you would remove. I guess I could go for the thing I use the least but I've taken a lot of time, money and effort to build these and pretty much everything gets used frequently.

Thanks in advance

EDITED Sep 30th 2021, 03:26

Thanks @greenfly, that makes a lot of sense!

Wow Wave Swarm looks cool, but why no CV control 🤔🤔🤔

HI Nick,

The grey ones are clones of the Roland system 100

The black one are clones of the Moog system 55

The silver ones are clones of the arp 2500

I have a few of the Roland and Moog ones. The build quality is fantastic and having used them, my experience is not on par with the anti - Behringer backlash you tend to hear from I guess I'll call those peeople purists. Each to there own though, the prices are fantastic so there are no complaints from me on that front. I pair my Behringer filter with the Intellijel rubicon 2 as there are 3 inputs on each filter and 3 modulation sources per filter as well as two outs per filter. The only thing I'd say is the hpf settings are a bit severe for my taste and really thin out the sound so I tend to not use those but as I understand they are advertised as 'faithful to the original' remakes.

regards

EDITED Sep 30th 2021, 03:48

If I can ask a couple dumb questions:

-- what are the Behringer units clones of? Moog, ARP, others?
-- are the Behringer units good enough quality to merit purchase?

While I follow a lot of music tech, I've basically ignored the Behringer stuff because my sales guy at a US retailer you'd know has said the Behringer hardware has quality issues and he won't sell it to me (given my normal preferences for enduring quality). Is this off base? Is the Behringer Eurorack stuff solid or even great?

Yes it would be a lot of fun to have an "impossible in the olden days meeting of classics" rack like Lugia's above. Sigh, more $s...

EDITED Feb 27th 2023, 07:10

That looks great Lugia. I'll definitely be buying those Buchla clones, they look awesome.

I have the Behringer filters from Roland in my main rack which are awesome and the dual ADSR is great too with the inverted envelope, which comes in very handy for side chain. Just a note on the adsr's though, the travel on each slider is a bit strange in that if you want to make a pluck you have to set them really low. I'm not sure if the original Roland ones had the same behaviour.

But it can...

Notice: this thing contains numerous modules that, back in the day, would NOT talk to each other or play nicely in the same cab. Voicing is on the upper two rows, control on the lower two. But you'd never have put Moog or ARP modules in the same build with the Buchla modules. And adding the Roland clones opens things up even more, along with a few modules from other manufacturers. In actuality, this turned out to be a pretty potent build, and I'm going to file this one for future reference. Plus, by the time I get around to building this, I'll probably have to change it, as Tiptop's stated that there WILL be further Buchla/Tiptop modules on the way.

And yes, a cassette deck is another source in this system...albeit a twisted sort of cassette deck with a chopper circuit and CV over speed.

EDITED Sep 30th 2021, 01:04