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Hi Amazing humans.
What we're working with... Neutron, Werkstatt, NTS-1, Keystep, SQ1 and... PLINKY!
Plinky got me looking into modular over the summer. It may or may not be racked... need to build the CV expander.
I'm only showing 88HP... but the case I'm looking to build in January will likely be 6U at 88HP or 114HP. 1U is still an option.. but the Xodes things are an option as well. Why not Mantis... price and it's winter... why not have a project?
This is the starter kit. Something to get me patching more and curious...
Workflow is left to right as my brain demands it.
Nothing super flashy but I think there is some room to play and make "happy mistakes".

Or... is there? Am I missing anything or have something I just don't need? I know O_C and Temps can wait awhile if needed.
I'm big on open source... small and local makers if possible (I'm in Europe).

Goal is to make noise and smile once in awhile :)
What do you think?

Noise, mixers (as xnax mentioned above), quantizer, attenuverters???

Both filters in your set-up are low-pass only. So you're pretty limited there.

Also, is this a dream build or do you already have all of these modules? Clouds isn't in production anymore. You can buy a new clone of Clouds or hope for someone willing to sell the original (not cheap).

How are you mixing all of this? How will you be modulating all of this? How will you be utilizing all those Midi inputs?

I have the 4ms Ensemble Oscillator and love it. [...]. You could also go with a 4ms Listen Four or Four Quarters(depending on what outputs you want) and it will replace your output module and allow for 2 panable mono channels and 2 full stereo channels of input as well as a headphone out and not take up too much space.
-- xnax

That's brilliant, thanks for the suggestions. In fact I think if I swapped out the Befaco OUT V3 for the Four Quarters, and a 2hp Mix, I'd have a more workable set up (mixing wise).

As for the 4ms Ensemble Oscillator, I'm mulling that one over, but it looks very tempting indeed!

Thanks for the tip(s).

So I ordered a module from Ladik a month ago and it never arrived. I asked VJ at Ladik for update and he kept saying shipping delays but I received other modules ordered at same time from Europe and Israel. So frustrating won't do that again.

I have the 4ms Ensemble Oscillator and love it. Modulating the spread to create melodies over the core melody is super satisfying. Not sure what exactly you are after, but that module sounds amazing. You could also go with a 4ms Listen Four or Four Quarters(depending on what outputs you want) and it will replace your output module and allow for 2 panable mono channels and 2 full stereo channels of input as well as a headphone out and not take up too much space.

Frap Tools are very expensive priced modules as are Verbos modules plus very large sized. A friend has the 4ms Ensemble Oscillator and it sounds amazing. It is on my wishlist along with the Knobula Poly Cinematic oscillator. I want small polyphonic modules for my smaller cases to get big sound in travel setups. Acid Rain Chainsaw also sounds massive and is a small module.

Sounds and looks really interesting.

Actually, the fun of starting a thread is all the various directions it sends you. I have to say, after looking at these posts, I realise I seriously need a mixer module (of some sort), and secondly on the pros and cons of Frap Tools side, apart from the Tiptop/Buchla 258t, I'm quite curious to discover the 4ms Ensemble Oscillator, which from watching a few demos I wonder if I might get more mileage out of that in the long run - hmm, decisions, decisions!

Anyhow, thanks again.

hello ! drill some big holes into the back of your case at the top and the bottom. glue some mesh against them to prevent getting dust inside. thats it. i did some temperature measurements with a closed system which ended at about 35 degrees (celsius) with 20 degrees outside. this is not really a problem for your electronics. if you live in a tropical region this might be more important. but high humidity is more dangerous then. happy twiggling !

So, just to add a comment, the Brenso is (as I said) just an idea at present, so indeed, as Lugia says, if I want to go down that path for less money, I could try out the Tiptop/Buchla 258t. Of course, if it can do the same thing for a third of the price I'd be very happy - as many would.
-- joesh

The 258t will not do the same things as Brenso. It may do pretty much what you want, though, and it will be almost half the size and a third the price. Better direct points of comparison are the Buchla 259 and its Eurorack descendants, including ones made by Verbos, Instruō, Hexinverter, Endorphin.es, and others, which tend to be large and expensive also.

ornament and crime might give you some good bang for the buck with that remaining 8HP
https://www.modulargrid.net/e/after-later-audio-uo-c-black-gold-panel

maybe you could benefit for a FX Aid

I'd add a matrix mixer, fx aid xl and something that can do offsets and inversion (3*MIA, perhaps) [...] - I have multiple problems with the frap tools modules, but that's just me - although I'm sure they are great... I think bresno is way too big for a case this size - as there's not enough room left over for modules to support it - add another row, though and it'd be substantially better

-- JimHowell1970

Hey Jim, big thanks for the case update, that's really helpful, especially as I can see it in action with your rack image, brilliant. The WMD Tool-Box looks really interesting, I hadn't thought of that. In fact due to this I'm going to have a much deeper look at the WMD modules, they look as though they have a very nice range indeed. And, oddly enough, I had the Happy Nerding modules in my original 'idea' when first starting. Somehow, they got forgotten along the way, so thanks for the reminder. Lastly, I'm glad the In the Trees A/B Mixer's still in there, I also thought that it looked basic, but so useful.

No problem - I'm happy it was helpful

don't forget to check out the wmd/ssf collaborative modules like the toolbox (hint they're all listed under steady state fate here)

re: the trees a/b mixer - I'd probably have taken it out and replaced it with something else - to get something stereo and to get something else in the rack! but it was the middle of the night

So, just to add a comment, the Brenso is (as I said) just an idea at present, so indeed, as Lugia says, if I want to go down that path for less money, I could try out the Tiptop/Buchla 258t. Of course, if it can do the same thing for a third of the price I'd be very happy - as many would. Another couple of possibilities which look interesting (I think) are the Gravitational Waves by Void Modular, and the Intellijel Rubicon 2, or something else (not quite the same, but) which looks very versatile the 4ms Ensemble Oscillator.

If I ever buy another oscillator it'll be the tiptop 258t - I've got a dannysound cali which is based on the 258 - and it'd be nice to be able to have a 2-3 osc voice from time to time

As for another row ... I've got that covered, I've also got a 104hp skiff that's empty (or used as needed). So, I could expand even more at a later date.

but if I'd known that I wouldn't have crammed such small modules in!!

As for the symbols and layout of Frap Tools discussion, I don't really see why people get so wound-up about them. FT are trying to do their own thing, like plenty of other makers out there - who BTW also have wacky images and odd layouts. I bought the Falistri due to recommendations here, and have to say I love it. Once you see how they've laid it out, it's very very easy to use, and logical. The quality of the build of their stuff (from what I've seen) is very good.

I can't disagree with any of that - never used one of their modules - but, having over 100 modules, from a wide variety of manufacturers - see comments above - Maths makes more sense as a learning tool - due to the fantastic resource that is the 'maths illustrated supplement' - and for me ergonomics are really important - plus we all like to discuss things - looks like me, sacguy74 and Lugia have bonded more over our shared dislike of frap tools - some people don't like make noise for similar reasons - tbh not many of their modules I like the look of either - Maths, optomix and lxd are pretty much the exceptions there - or mutable clones - which again we seem to agree on

Lastly (@Lugia), don't worry about the CWEJMAN VCA-4MX, I just thought it looked interesting and it clearly is, but too expensive, which you mentioned on another thread (I think). However, luckily everyone here who's answered my questions, has come up with some alternative solutions which gives me plenty of ideas/solutions as where to move next on my set-up.

Very big thanks to all.

-- joesh

Hi folks, I am near completion of my modular system and am a bit stuck on what to fill the last 8hp with that would benefit the system rather than clutter it, ideally a single 8hp, though I'm open to alternatives.

The system is built to have two voices, one for melodies another for bass and QOP providing drums. Musical styles would cover electronica, techno, down tempo/chill and a dabble in ambient.
I would love to hear your suggestions on what to add to compliment the system. Another oscillator is a possibility, though two voices should suffice. I guess, I'm looking for something to add variation, or modulation or something extra to keep the system fun and playable with an element of unpredictability. As I'm quite new to modular, some advanced ideas could be what's needed, I am open to your suggestions.
Thanks for stopping by and your opinions are appreciated.

🙌🏼

Note : I am willing to take out the Pique and use the second ADSR of the B140 to expand that space to 12HP if necessary. But everything else stays. 😌

EDITED Dec 9th 2021, 12:55

@Ronin1973 good points, yeah the perforation holes might not line up just by "spray and pray" or other magical thinking.

@wishbonebrewery, yes I have a nice setup and don't want to f&*$ it up with ugly handmade trash

... sigh, too much thinking for a small problem. At this point I'll probably go with https://www.shapeways.com/product/67YKP7968/eurorack-blank-panel-4hp-vented?optionId=70725951&li=more-from-shop as suggested much earlier above. The are ~$10 per 4hp for the black plastic version. I thought I could do better elsewhere but maybe I can't.

Think I'll first try rearranging my rack (temporarily) with full gaps where the "vented blanks" would go and see if that sorts out the heating issue.

Thanks for all the pointers guys!

EDITED Dec 9th 2021, 09:10

-- nickgreenberg

How would you mount the perforated aluminum to your rails? There's no guarantee that any of the holes will line up or be big enough to pass the threads of a screw through.

I wouldn't use sheers as they will probably curl your aluminum. Sheers (aircraft sheers are best) only make sense for rough cuts in my opinion. I'd use a small hacksaw. You can clean up your cuts using a deburring tool. Just do a search on Amazon for one.

-- Ronin1973

If using perforated aluminium:
You would have to Buy some Round Needle Files to open out or Slot the appropriate perforations.

Snips - Yeah bad idea, as said it will curl the metal, especially so with small parts like this.

Hacksaw - you are going to have to be very careful and accurate or it will look like a dogs dinner, you need a large Flat File rather than a deburring tool, to smooth and straighten the edges. You may also find you will need a Bench Vice to you can appropriately hold the piece of metal so you can square off and make parallel.

Personally, I'd just wait and buy something made by someone else, Eurorack looks nice and I wouldn't spoil it by making something in my garage that would look like a bag of Sh**..... I'm a Mechanical Engineer (for years, before I was a brewer).

If you want to get technical, the Aluminium Blanks from Thonk - You can see the sheer and break-away on the edges, this shows its been stamped out, the initial stampings (Holes & Outside edge) will bend the material, a subsequent stage of the Power-Press will planish (Flatten) the Blank, there will still be sharp edges so I could guess the parts are then tumbled or shot blasted to de-burr. I literally used to make the tools that made things like this.

EDITED Dec 9th 2021, 07:58

I'd add a matrix mixer, fx aid xl and something that can do offsets and inversion (3*MIA, perhaps) [...] - I have multiple problems with the frap tools modules, but that's just me - although I'm sure they are great... I think bresno is way too big for a case this size - as there's not enough room left over for modules to support it - add another row, though and it'd be substantially better

-- JimHowell1970

Hey Jim, big thanks for the case update, that's really helpful, especially as I can see it in action with your rack image, brilliant. The WMD Tool-Box looks really interesting, I hadn't thought of that. In fact due to this I'm going to have a much deeper look at the WMD modules, they look as though they have a very nice range indeed. And, oddly enough, I had the Happy Nerding modules in my original 'idea' when first starting. Somehow, they got forgotten along the way, so thanks for the reminder. Lastly, I'm glad the In the Trees A/B Mixer's still in there, I also thought that it looked basic, but so useful.

So, just to add a comment, the Brenso is (as I said) just an idea at present, so indeed, as Lugia says, if I want to go down that path for less money, I could try out the Tiptop/Buchla 258t. Of course, if it can do the same thing for a third of the price I'd be very happy - as many would. Another couple of possibilities which look interesting (I think) are the Gravitational Waves by Void Modular, and the Intellijel Rubicon 2, or something else (not quite the same, but) which looks very versatile the 4ms Ensemble Oscillator.

As for another row ... I've got that covered, I've also got a 104hp skiff that's empty (or used as needed). So, I could expand even more at a later date.

As for the symbols and layout of Frap Tools discussion, I don't really see why people get so wound-up about them. FT are trying to do their own thing, like plenty of other makers out there - who BTW also have wacky images and odd layouts. I bought the Falistri due to recommendations here, and have to say I love it. Once you see how they've laid it out, it's very very easy to use, and logical. The quality of the build of their stuff (from what I've seen) is very good.

Lastly (@Lugia), don't worry about the CWEJMAN VCA-4MX, I just thought it looked interesting and it clearly is, but too expensive, which you mentioned on another thread (I think). However, luckily everyone here who's answered my questions, has come up with some alternative solutions which gives me plenty of ideas/solutions as where to move next on my set-up.

Very big thanks to all.

EDITED Dec 9th 2021, 09:12

I try to keep things grouped in sections by functionality and place the things that get tweaked the most closest to me (same idea mentioned above). I’m usually sitting for sessions and streams, and have tried a few arrangements where things were being tweaked up high and my shoulder would hurt after 10 minutes so settled on this.

I prefer the bottom case angled as opposed to vertical cases, but it hasn't been too bad having a top vertical case (Intellijel stack).

1U-Drums
3U-Drums, Master processing
3U-Voices, send and return fx
1U-Utility
3U-Filters, envelopes, mixer
3U-Sequencers

Agree Jim,
I’m saving up for the Serge Eurorack and Tiptop Buchla modules. They are easy to read and sound amazing from what I’ve heard.

and unsurprisingly me too...

for me - it's not the symbols per se, it's the layout of the panels - it's all over the place - clumps of jacks and knobs, that don't line up - Make Noise aesthetics are 1000 * better imo - frap tools modules, particularly the big ones, are some of the worst panel designs in eurorack as far as I am concerned - they seem to have used the 'design language' of "a mess in black highlighted with bright colours and fuck the ergonomics even though they are large modules"

I’m with Lugia the Frap Tools modules make my head spin with the hieroglyphics labels and Instruo is like that to some degree as is Make Noise. I like the clear labels on Intellijel modules. Wish more makers could focus on clear easy to understand modules.

If you like Falistri, you'll like Brenso. You'll be familiar with the smaller attenuverters and the tiny switches. The colour coding, layout, and iconography are similar. These were among the first modules I bought, and I enjoy them a great deal.

LEFT = UP, RIGHT = DOWN. Control signals start on the bottom with sequencing, MIDI interfacing, soundcard I/O, etc, then go up on the left along with modules to work with them in that path. Generators (oscillators and their pals) on top, as they're less likely to be tweaked while playing. And filters + FX go above the final output mixer, sent down the right side from the top. Modulators, if left in the middle, can then branch out to anywhere in that circular flow with a minimum of cable-snarl. And putting the FX right near the final mixer makes them easier to add to the mix. So, even though there might be several "instruments" patched up on a single synth, you're able to follow what's going on with the patches more easily.
-- Lugia

Yup! That's exactly the layout that I've found has worked for me (and probably will work for others).

... or maybe I should just get a dedicated mixer module instead?

Probably the right move. Consider: a proper performance mixer offers VCAs for audio levels, panning, usually AUX levels, and sometimes a CUE bus, headphone preamp, metering, etc etc. Yeah, something like a Toppobrillo Stereomix2 is $400+...but it's got at least $400 worth of submodules hiding inside. However...

...and the CWEJMAN VCA-4MX QUAD VCA MIXER.

-- joesh

To have that module, you'll need sufficient money to afford it...and also, to afford a time machine to go back about ten years, as Woja's been dead for a hot minute. But by and large, charging brain-wrenching prices for stuff like that is more about...ah...well, why do people buy Ferraris when they KNOW they'll mostly be driven from home to the service garage and back again? Same idea...you're paying for a name when you really just need the module. Save your money.

To me, the Frap modules...save for some of the smaller ones...are an unintelligible mess. Yes, it might make them more internationally acceptable by using symbols only...but then again, English is pretty much the lingua franca for synths with only a few exceptions. For example, I can easily figure out what the Frap 321 is and does...which is one reason why I recommend it. But the Brenso? The Sapel? Nowayinhell. And this is coming from someone with 40-ish years in on electronic music.

Wait for the Tiptop/Buchla 258t to drop sometime around the first of the year, however. You could buy THREE of those for what one Brenso goes for and still have beer money. And the 258 is super-capable...which is why the Brenso is somewhat based on them. Plus...it's got WORDS on it. And words on control panels are a good thing.

Ornament and Crime (O&C) is really good and easy to use. Definitely easier than disting ex which is a pain to learn.
I have a micro O&C with base software and a second O&C with Hemispheres on the way.

Another option slightly cheaper https://www.perfectcircuit.com/lmntl-splitter-hub.html

I definitely talk about ergonomics on here, though. It seems to be the most-neglected aspect of system design, module design, and so on. And it's very important, because ergonomics goes hand in hand with successful instrument design. Ignore it, and you'll probably wind up with a nice and expensive closet-stuffer.

As far as modules go, the problems there are twofold: in some cases, there seems to be ZERO forethought that their hardware might be used in low-lighting situations. Like a live gig. So you get panels that look like refried ASS attached to modules that could benefit from a much better and more intelligible user interface. And the other issue, especially with the plethora of Mutable clones, is tiny knobs packed densely together. Now, I HAVE a modular system that uses these pretty much exclusively, that being a 180-space AE system...but the AE module designs are such that you've got loads of room to fit your fat fingers into when you want to tweak a patch. THAT works. But when you've got a pile of little controls, jammed in with the necessary jacks, and tiny writing on that...well, to me, this is sort of crappy. Yes, bringing certain modules back (Clouds, in particular) is a good thing, unless your remake is unplayable...then it's not. Seriously...you can't jam 18 hp worth of module guts into 8 hp without some sort of tradeoff...I get that...but that compromise probably shouldn't be in the UI.

As for systems, I follow a pattern that has "generators" on top, then filters on the right, and FX and output mixer below that (at least, in a 3-row cab). Then on the bottom, clocking and related processes, and above that on the left, modulation sources. Granted, I have to fudge that arrangement sometimes, but you can even manage much of it in something small like a Rackbrute. By doing this every time (or as close as possible), I'm hoping that the arrangements I come up with actually have a signal flow such as this for the user's ease:

LEFT = UP, RIGHT = DOWN. Control signals start on the bottom with sequencing, MIDI interfacing, soundcard I/O, etc, then go up on the left along with modules to work with them in that path. Generators (oscillators and their pals) on top, as they're less likely to be tweaked while playing. And filters + FX go above the final output mixer, sent down the right side from the top. Modulators, if left in the middle, can then branch out to anywhere in that circular flow with a minimum of cable-snarl. And putting the FX right near the final mixer makes them easier to add to the mix. So, even though there might be several "instruments" patched up on a single synth, you're able to follow what's going on with the patches more easily.

EDITED Dec 9th 2021, 02:15

Actually, I kinda like these: https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/MonoMultBk--black-market-monomult-1x5-splitter-hub-black Easy to get, for one thing...plus you get 1-in/5-out with these, and they come in several colors (I prefer the eye-shattering ones...helps to remind me that something in the patch IS being multed out).

Actually, the best way to deal with DC offsets is to have something in the final path that blocks it. Quite often, this'll be the VCAs in a performance mixer, but you can also grab a Happy Nerding Isolator for about $100, and this'll give you isolation transformers which you can overdrive slightly to get that "big iron" warmup. And a ganged final level, too, plus the transformers also work the opposite way to help decouple the modular from any crud trying to get into the instrument via the outputs...ground loops being a big culprit here.

I'm sort of like farkas in layout and generally agree with most of what he posted - although muscle memory is not there with this layout yet and I think I will probably change it around a bit

my main cases are similar to farkas' set up but for a total of 188hp/18u (2 * 9u 104, 2 * 9u 84)

by the side of those I have 2 6u 19" racks 1 is almost empty but the bottom 1 is mostly full of video synth modules

at a 90degree angle to those racks I have a desk on which is a mantis (video synth) with a 6u/72hp rack on a guitar stand with mostly modulation modules in it

thinking of moving more of the video stuff into the 19" racks so I can set up the mantis and the 72hp case in the living room to focus on learning the black sequencer (which I bought recently) more

Mutable Instruments Shades is great tool and other similar modules to what Jim mentions like WMD SSF Toolbox. Sequential switches are fun tools also.

I'd add a matrix mixer, fx aid xl and something that can do offsets and inversion (3*MIA, perhaps) probably replace all the new vcas with a happy nerding one too if this were my case

something like this

wouldn't be my case though - I have multiple problems with the frap tools modules, but that's just me - although I'm sure they are great... I think bresno is way too big for a case this size - as there's not enough room left over for modules to support it - add another row, though and it'd be substantially better

ALM Busy Circuits Tangle Quartet is another good quad VCA and mixer to consider.

Really good advice, thanks you both. I should say that I maybe gave the wrong impression - that I was getting rid of the Quad VCA. If so, I didn't mean that, I love the Quad VCA, it gets used all the time.

Good idea for the 2HP Mix, I hadn't thought about that (I imagine you mean this one: https://www.modulargrid.net/e/2hp-mix). The linear VCAs also seem a good idea too.

Just to put you in the picture, here's my rack at present. The modules on the bottom right are things I'm thinking over (you'll see all the VCAs and mixer bits + the Brenso which I'm hesitating about). What you can't see is a Pittsburgh SV-1B, a Make Noise 0-Coast, and a Synthstrom Deluge, which I use for drums, or sequencing, or triggering the bitbox, etc.

So, now you see my hand of cards, you can maybe make other suggestions too!

Thanks in advance.

EDITED Feb 17th 2022, 10:01

I will third the 4ms Ensemble Oscillator. You can get some really beautiful drones with it and then use CV to affect the spread and it just gets better.

I wish this was real, instead it just sits here teasing me, along with all the other lightstrip prototypes!
-- benirose

oh so this is vapourware like the Pulse tornado?

EDITED Dec 3rd 2023, 05:09

I have 208hp x 12u set up in a half horizontal/half vertical layout (picture 4 Mantis cases with brackets or something similar). I keep sequencing, mixing, and controllers in the front, with oscillators and filters at the top, signal flow mostly left-to-right. Most of the time I am sitting while patching, so this works well for me. I have been constantly tweaking and reworking my layout for two years, and have arrived at something that is almost exactly what I had hoped for. My muscle memory knows exactly where to reach now. It all makes sense to me, which is ultimately all that really matters.
As far as module ergonomics, I prefer large-ish modules with minimal menu-diving and button combos. Kind of a WYSIWYG interface for the most part, as I like to work fast. I've eliminated most of the modules that I just didn't enjoy using, and finally arrived at a rack size, layout, and module selection that has eliminated any serious GAS. I just can't think of much else I would ever want or need.
How about you?

tnx!

I discovered there is one to many passive mult on the top row and a Doepfer clock devider is missing.
The mults where there before i got the Klavis and the clock devider. Both do most of the multiplication.
Indeed the mults are an optimisation = more room = not making it easier :P

The Ornament & Crime is an interesting module. That's indeed something i wasn't looking for but it does add something new to the rack.
-- vnauta

Intellijel makes a mult called a "Hub". It's a little red box you can just toss in a drawer when not needed. It's 1:3 and the price is around $10. They are in stock at Perfect Circuit (just checked). They make more sense than chewing up HP. $20 for 4 extra HP of space isn't bad.
https://intellijel.com/shop/accessories/hub/

I'm hoping maybe the thread gets a pin put in it.

But something I don't see discussed often is ergonomics. What works best for you?
This is more oriented for permanent builds not portable ones.

I see systems that are vertically mounted and others that seem to be horizontal. What do YOU like best? What criteria do you look for in a permanent system? If you're going to spend hours working with your instrument, then this does come into play.

@Ronin, thanks for those suggestions. My first few checks showed "out of stock" but I can keep checking for availability elsewhere.

@TOMMI001 thanks for the news, maybe post again when the units are available? I am in the US, I'm not sure mail from your location in the Netherlands would make sense, but we'll see...

I am also considering ordering some perforated aluminum sheet such as https://www.onlinemetals.com/en/buy/aluminum-perforated-sheet which is quoting about $5 per for 10 units of "custom cut" 1x5 inch panels, or $40-50 for me to get more than enough vented blanks as I would need, which is not bad. I've seen people in other forums say the cut tolerances are not exacting SO one might need to buy big and cut down. Do ya'll know what capacity metal sheers are needed to get clean edges / angles / dimensions on blank-sized metals? I don't have any such tools presently.

-- nickgreenberg

How would you mount the perforated aluminum to your rails? There's no guarantee that any of the holes will line up or be big enough to pass the threads of a screw through.

I wouldn't use sheers as they will probably curl your aluminum. Sheers (aircraft sheers are best) only make sense for rough cuts in my opinion. I'd use a small hacksaw. You can clean up your cuts using a deburring tool. Just do a search on Amazon for one.

A dedicated mixer module is where you should go. The quad VCA is great. But using it as a mixer AND a VCA at the same time is pretty limited. You can't adjust volume levels without opening the bias or sacrificing a VCA as an attenuator then plugged into another VCA to shape a volume envelope. I would think as the ability to mix as an EXTRA functionality and not a core. In my experience it's an either/or proposition.

I use a Quadratt 1U mixer/attenuverter for simple mixing duties. The Quadratt can be used for that, or individual attenuverting. But any small, monophonic mixer that's DC coupled will work if you don't have 1U rails in your system.

Keep the Quad VCA unless space is an issue. A 2HP Mix for $100 should do the trick... and it's 2HP. I don't like the knobs on 2HP stuff. But for this purpose, they are fine. It's generally a set-and-forget thing.

You may want to add a couple of linear VCAs... here's a dual set for $100.
https://www.modulargrid.net/e/arcus-audio-dual-lin-exp-vca

So for $200 and 4HP you have a small utility mixer and a couple of linear VCAs... (that do exponential as well).

the bastl one seems easy to find:

https://wigglehunt.com/?query=Bastl+QUATTRO+FIGARO&condition=&stock_status=in_&price_min=0&price_max=5000¤cy_code=47&sort=price

what exactly are you trying to do? - maybe post a link to your rack - imo it's often better to get multiple basic modules that when patched together work how you want them to rather than struggling to find a particular module that works in a specific way - it's modular after all - and you may not want it to work that way next month, or even next patch

this is one of the reasons that bigger cases are better - there's space to add simple building block modules that can be patched together to do different things/behave in different ways - which is also why Maths beats most of the other DUSG based modules (especially for beginners) as it has the excellent 'maths illustrated supplement' as a guide to patch programming, which can be extended to patching in general!

Brilliant, thanks Jim that's interesting, I'll think all that over and try to replan my VCA ideas.

BTW, another couple of things I came up with are the Bastl QUATTRO FIGARO, shame it's also discontinued, but maybe not impossible to find, and I wondered if the WMD triple bipolar VCA could be interesting and work for me?

cwejman always were made in very small batches, (order and wait and wait), from what I can gather, and there's been a gap in production since Woja (Cwejman, the designer) died, apparently they are starting to be built again, but unless you want to get on the (quite long) wait list (expect years) then it's the used market only and as they are 'unobtanium', they tend to go for a lot more used than retail prices, especially quoted on modulargrid, would appear - supply and demand

I just checked on wigglehunt - there appear to be 5 available - ranging from $840-1100, all in the US, so probably + shipping and import duties etc - that's roughly 4 times the price of veils or the quad vca or the wmd

by simple 4 channel mixer I was meaning something in the 100-150€ bracket

keeping the quad vca you have (or swapping it out for a veils) and adding something in this bracket will save you a lot of money!

EDITED Dec 8th 2021, 14:23

The WMD is easy to find here - in Europe. I see it's only 2 channels though, so that's bad luck, and, buying two would just be the same as buying one Cwejman (I guess).

Strange the Cwejman's are so expensive, people talk about them in YT videos, but always add in that they are very expensive. From what I understand, the quality is incredible, but does that mean Intellijels are rubbish because they're cheaper, I think not. Or, are the Cwejman just made in very small batches maybe?

As for "keep the quad (or swap it out for a veils) and add a simple 4 channel mixer", sounds not so bad, but in the end you might as well just buy the Cwejman, which would come to the same price or cheaper anyhow.

Thanks for the suggestion(s).

well, you may actually be able to find the wmd - the cwejman, not so likely - unless you have super deep pockets (used) or exemplary patience (order)

sounds like you should keep the quad (or swap it out for a veils) and add a simple 4 channel mixer

tnx!

I discovered there is one to many passive mult on the top row and a Doepfer clock devider is missing.
The mults where there before i got the Klavis and the clock devider. Both do most of the multiplication.
Indeed the mults are an optimisation = more room = not making it easier :P

The Ornament & Crime is an interesting module. That's indeed something i wasn't looking for but it does add something new to the rack.

Thanks for the input all.

How about the veils (2020 version) instead of the quad vca?