Looking at this from the perspective of a customer, I would personally assume the risk if I used Paypal f&f. I understand there is a risk going into the transaction this way. When the postal/shipping service receives the item, the seller is absolved of responsibility for the package. It would be kind, and expected, of the shipper to help with filing lost package claims and things like that, but the seller completed his or her end of the transaction. Your concern should be with the shipping company, and demanding an adequate response from them. That's how I look at it, anyway.
-- farkas

Actually, the shipping company's customer is the seller, not the buyer. As a buyer, trying to file a complaint for lost package will be either ignored or rejected on the grounds that you did not pay for it but the seller did - at least that's been my experience.

However, I agree that if as a buyer, you chose to pay with F&F (not really a "favor to the seller" because most sellers will cascade the fees on the selling price) and did not ask for shipping insurance (arguably this is also a bit on the seller I feel, at least I personally always try to inform people buying from me of such a risk before concluding any deal), you're essentially hoping for the happy flow and accepting most of the risk if not all.

im thinkin he is trying to get "revenge" on his bad choice
-- lazarusgordon

That's just crazy paranoia IMO. Most people will try to be honest while buying/selling music gear, as long as everything is going fine. But ask yourself in all honesty, would you REALLY propose, in such a case, to send 200€ to a buyer after the module you're trying to sell gets lost in the mail ? Let's not forget that the buyer is not really at fault here and the 49 positive feedbacks probably didn't come from nowhere, that's telling me he/she is acting in good faith the majority of times... Could he/she be super nice about it and split the loss? Maybe, but not sure I personally would be very motivated for that niceness after reading things like "narcissist apes" and "shitty people"...

Hi all!
My new album "Etudes" is out today!
Electronic | minimalism | ambient | modular.
You can now listen full record and get your copy.
Vinyl & Digital - https://yalivec.bandcamp.com

EDITED Nov 10th 2023, 13:35

Looking at this from the perspective of a customer, I would personally assume the risk if I used Paypal f&f. I understand there is a risk going into the transaction this way. When the postal/shipping service receives the item, the seller is absolved of responsibility for the package. It would be kind, and expected, of the shipper to help with filing lost package claims and things like that, but the seller completed his or her end of the transaction. Your concern should be with the shipping company, and demanding an adequate response from them. That's how I look at it, anyway.

my main question is

As a seller here on modulargrid who has an etic and consider himself correct what would you do if the package is lost by delivery company and you have been paid with friendly payment?

the fact that all of you is bringin out the law and so on reinforce the fact that we are all a bunch of narcisist apes unable to live together in this world.

i would like an honest answer.
as i said the friendly payment on paypal is also a favour to the seller to get his money immediatly so a minimum of responsability is on him i would say...

the case is this:
i bought a module (chorus effect dimensions) on modulargrid from an user with 49 positive feedbacks. (330€ free shipping)
we actualky agreed to trade that module previously during another trade (he had that module on sale +others that ended up been already sold, a bit sketchy) but after a while he refused and decided to keep it and that trade ended up ok with another module (which implied him sending back some money + another module). i received his module quite fast with the same postal service.

now he decided to sell that module he didnt want to , chorus dimensions.
agreed on free shipping and paid friendly with paypal 330€
gave me tracking.
24 th of october he shipped.
since that day the tracking number has no updates, like as it has never left the post office....
he now (few days ago)opened a complain to search for the package.

that's the story....
could he fake the shipping of a package giving a tracking number of a lost package?
im starting feeling paranoid since the previous trade was a bit hars in communications and i feel he in the end was not happy with the choice of module he got from me (he is selling it already).
im thinkin he is trying to get "revenge" on his bad choice...

nobody here proposed at least a 50% refund as a solution.

are we really becoming so shitty as people ?

what would be your feedback in someone not refunding a lost package paid with friendly payment?

i will definetly never do a friendly payment again

EDITED Nov 10th 2023, 10:17

Hi! Any idea when this beauty will be released ?

Fortunately rules exist to regulate transactions, including and especially on the Internet!
Whether for the Business to Consumer, or Consumer to Consumer. But again, ‘the law is a complex matter’.

For example, a particular seller can be (under French law in any case) legally qualified as a ‘merchant’ according to the regularity of his sales activity. Thus, regular acts of sale on a merchant site or even a simple connection site, can make an individual a merchant of fact (within the meaning of the Code of Commerce). Various others criteria can support this... And this is pretty good for protecting transactions.

Not knowing the context of this transaction in particular, the site where it took place, or even its amount and the profit made, and not being a specialized jurist, I will stop here my advice. After all, we are here only trying to bring some leads @lazarusgordon

PS: I have been ordering various gears for years in France, Germany, Spain, etc. No problem to report with La Poste on my side.

why do we need to bring the LAW on this...

we are on a platform where people friendly trade or sell modules... let's just use common sense...

If i would have choose a "commercial payment" on paypal adding 4% to the final cost i would have been protected by paypal which just need a tracking number and a complain to refund, am i wrong??
If i choose friendly payment i'm also doing a favour to the seller who can get his money immediatly without waiting for the package to be delivered.

anybody have any problem with LAPOSTE from France? any lost package? later found?

-- lazarusgordon
As you used F&F then of course PP won't be any help and I fear you'll have to write it off as the law is your only recourse if the package is lost and the seller won't refund you. Realistically, however, you'd have to bring a case and the costs would be high and success is not guaranteed. So it's probably gone.
Another good reason never to use F&F I'm afraid. Sorry, and good luck it shows up eventually.

why do we need to bring the LAW on this...

we are on a platform where people friendly trade or sell modules... let's just use common sense...

If i would have choose a "commercial payment" on paypal adding 4% to the final cost i would have been protected by paypal which just need a tracking number and a complain to refund, am i wrong??
If i choose friendly payment i'm also doing a favour to the seller who can get his money immediatly without waiting for the package to be delivered.

anybody have any problem with LAPOSTE from France? any lost package? later found?

If you are European (Italian for example...) this link could help you: https://commission.europa.eu/live-work-travel-eu/consumer-rights-and-complaints/resolve-your-consumer-complaint/european-consumer-centres-network-ecc-net_en
-- Sweelinck

Consumer law does probably not apply to private sales!

Did you e.g. use some kind of marketplace platform that states that you agree with certain responsibilities of seller and buyer?
If not, and you didn't discuss what party took what risk, you knowinly took the risk and you're on your own now.

So the link is: https://www.ecc.lt/lt/

You made a deal with the seller where you paid them to get the thing or things to you. Unless you explicitly agreed that you would assume the risk of it not arriving then it's all on them to ensure delivery by whatever means they chose.
So if it is lost in transit then by default they are responsible for a full refund.
-- Bleep

He now opened a complain to search the package at the postoffice.
When i asked to him if he's gonna refund me in case the package is totally lost he answered:
"Unfortunetly you never asked for insured shipping mate ... So i won't be able to do that ...Deeply sorry :/"

i payed as friendly payment on paypal, ill never do it again probably

well the guy is from France shipping to me in Lithuania so i guess he should refund me, right?
i can maybe pay for the shipping since we decided to be free, but i this point the guy sounds sketchy

You may have a look at the Flame Takt.

https://www.modulargrid.net/e/flame-takt-

The law is a complex matter, and the rules vary from country to country. In France, the seller is responsible until delivery. In case of loss by the carrier, he remains liable (unless you have expressly chosen a means of transport different from that offered by the seller). It seems to be the same rule all over Europe, that is if you buy on the Internet in the European Union.

If you are European (Italian for example...) this link could help you: https://commission.europa.eu/live-work-travel-eu/consumer-rights-and-complaints/resolve-your-consumer-complaint/european-consumer-centres-network-ecc-net_en

Go for the upgraded SWT16+ if Robaux is your choice.
Not really sequencing, but take a look at the StolperBeats - it's different, loads of offgrid wonky beats options.
and always a shout out to BeatStepPro

You made a deal with the seller where you paid them to get the thing or things to you. Unless you explicitly agreed that you would assume the risk of it not arriving then it's all on them to ensure delivery by whatever means they chose.
So if it is lost in transit then by default they are responsible for a full refund.
-- Bleep

He now opened a complain to search the package at the postoffice.
When i asked to him if he's gonna refund me in case the package is totally lost he answered:
"Unfortunetly you never asked for insured shipping mate ... So i won't be able to do that ...Deeply sorry :/"

i payed as friendly payment on paypal, ill never do it again probably

EDITED Nov 9th 2023, 07:06

You made a deal with the seller where you paid them to get the thing or things to you. Unless you explicitly agreed that you would assume the risk of it not arriving then it's all on them to ensure delivery by whatever means they chose.
So if it is lost in transit then by default they are responsible for a full refund.

Hi! I was wondering if there is any plans to allow a change in the orientation of the modules within the rack? Like for example a standard 3u 4hp module to be placed horizontally in a 1u case (on a real scenario with an adapter). I think it would be super handy.
Thanks!

what do you think should happen when a sale ends up with a package (with tracking number but not insured) is lost???

should the seller refund all the money?
should refund half?

what do you think?

EDITED Nov 8th 2023, 15:46

3x MIA is useful in many situations. Concerning Twin Waves, it is perhaps not the best example because it has 2 attenuators (param 1 and param 2 knobs). That said, 3x MIA will be able to mix and dose two sources of external modulations that will result in a single flow in one of the two inputs (param 1 or param 2 inputs).

I don’t sell modules :) When I write 'We often suggest...' I am referring to this ModularGrid community (and others) that quite often recommends the 3x MIA module. It has many useful functions in a small 6HP format. https://www.modulargrid.net/e/happy-nerding-3x-mia
In fact, it is one of the highest rated modules currently (see the list of ‘Top Modules’ https://www.modulargrid.net/e/modules/evaluationlists)

It is not always relevant to advise this or that module (apart from a few utilities) because the beginner logically has a difficulty in explaining what he is looking for, and the one who advises will naturally refer to his own tastes and orientations.

Take your time. Watch videos. Download and read the manuals for more information, and understand for yourself. I did this for several months before purchasing my first modules.

And start with few modules (but a large box)...

We often suggest a utility module like the 3x MIA:
-- Sweelinck

good suggestion, it would probably pair perfectly with the Twin Waves...

besides, do you mean you sell modules? you probably know lots of modules... please continue adding modules to the thread

May I ask why you want to move the sequencer inside your rack? Is it purely the form factor?

Yes, I feel i'll prefer it in amongst the dedicated drum modules.. playability..erganomics..

On paper, the Beatstep Pro has somewhat the same functionality as the Erica Synths Drum sequencer (I believe difference being that Drum Sequencer has a few more tracks and accents while Beatstep Pro has two cv/velo/gate sequencer which you could also use for accents of course), while costing 1/4th of the price of the Erica Synths one. Also the workflow seems quite similar.
Just curious.

Beatstep is great, don't get me wrong, and great value... Plus you get 2 x sequencers built into it.
But, I have found that while I once thought 8 x outs would be more than enough, I've now used them all & want more; the others have 16.
I also feel the 4x4 grid vs the row of 16 pads will allow me to be quicker & better at programming on the fly..

Besides a drum sequencer where you'd program your own sequences, I find the Mutable Instruments Grids (or any of its clones) usefull to have as interesting accents or some extra background voices. Also it's really easy to dial in snare fills and funky hihat patterns. Grids is also not too expensive so maybe it's nice to have besides a dedicated drum sequencer.

Good shout, just looked at this & for future it could be a welcome next addition.
1 thing the SWT16 seems to have that the Erica doesn't is to be able to add fills on the fly..

I'm also considering adding a drum sequencer, in- or outside the rack.
May I ask why you want to move the sequencer inside your rack? Is it purely the form factor?

On paper, the Beatstep Pro has somewhat the same functionality as the Erica Synths Drum sequencer (I believe difference being that Drum Sequencer has a few more tracks and accents while Beatstep Pro has two cv/velo/gate sequencer which you could also use for accents of course), while costing 1/4th of the price of the Erica Synths one. Also the workflow seems quite similar.
Just curious.

Besides a drum sequencer where you'd program your own sequences, I find the Mutable Instruments Grids (or any of its clones) usefull to have as interesting accents or some extra background voices. Also it's really easy to dial in snare fills and funky hihat patterns. Grids is also not too expensive so maybe it's nice to have besides a dedicated drum sequencer.

Pipslope and O/A/x2 may replace the need for Maths
-- philipwith1l

kind of, but not really... I'd say get those in addition to maths not instead of!!!

self-evolving and self-balancing patch. instead of versio, a tape recorder is used (but any delay effect will be useful)
the same as any reverb instead of a befaco spring
in O&C I use the env follow module which opens and closes Veils in duck mode

I got the Robaux for monetary reasons and I'd say, hands down: Go for the Erica if HP and money is not the issure.
The Robaux rubberized buttons are just not very ... agile? you kinda have to press them hard - they're not trigger pads as e.g. on the ableton push. It works, but if you really want to jam live easily i'd def go for the Erica.
-- s_heidenreich

Cool, thanks for that....
Yeah, I'd rather wait, save & make the right choice...

Had actually wondered if the clicky buttons on Erica would be more "playable"...
Thanks for the input

I got the Robaux for monetary reasons and I'd say, hands down: Go for the Erica if HP and money is not the issure.
The Robaux rubberized buttons are just not very ... agile? you kinda have to press them hard - they're not trigger pads as e.g. on the ableton push. It works, but if you really want to jam live easily i'd def go for the Erica.

Hello world,

I'm looking to purchase in the future a dedicated drum sequencer.
Currently have Beatstep Pro which is great but want to bring seq into the case which will be a dedicated drum rig.

Primary requirement are
To be able to play in a live sense as much as possible.
16 outputs
Prefer the 4x4 button layout (as assume easier to change on the fly compared to beatstep)

Currently zoning in on two options

https://www.modulargrid.net/e/robaux-swt16-
OR
https://www.modulargrid.net/e/erica-synths-drum-sequencer-with-black-keys

Ignoring space or cost factors does anyone have any experience that would recommend a specific choice on above (or alternatives with similar functionality)

Many thanks in advance for any input

We have that now. Modules can be ordered by positive rail.

-- solitud

What the evil twin said.

Order Modules by Power Consumption

Modules now can be ordered by positive rail in the search.

would love an option to sort by power specs for eurorack among the other sort features (newest, popular, alphabetic, etc.). [...] For my needs, +12v alone would be sufficient;
-- obmuc

We have that now. Modules can be ordered by positive rail.

EDITED Nov 7th 2023, 09:14

Apologies if already requested, but didn't see it... would love an option to sort by power specs for eurorack among the other sort features (newest, popular, alphabetic, etc.). I often find myself jumping back and forth to the 'details' page of modules just to see the power specs... trying to check if I could fit a module, power-wise. A simple sort would handle it nicely, though I know the three separate power values might complicate things. For my needs, +12v alone would be sufficient; or maybe just sum the three specs as a single integer value?

Thanks for a great website.

EDITED Nov 7th 2023, 03:21

Pipslope and O/A/x2 may replace the need for Maths

@Dan_ogq

• Leaving a gap between the modules can be risky. A 1HP blank panel from Doepfer costs around 3€. Much cheaper than damage caused by a short circuit due to an involuntary intrusion.

• The 2hp drum modules are of good quality. Richard Devine’s Current Live Setup features a 2hp Kick and a 2hp Hat:

• An attenuverter will allow you to adjust (reduce or increase) the amount of modulation you wish on the tone or the decay of your 2hp Kick, for example. This is an essential tool. The most complete modules have an attenuver for each of their main cv inputs.
  We often suggest a utility module like the 3x MIA: it contains an attenuverter function (among many others). You will be able to dose the modulations reducing the width of an lfo or a random, and this module can even mix several modulations together.

Hi.
I'm not going to buy a maths. It's too large.
I know its called the best module of all time. But - I watched youtube-videos with it... and I don't understand it...
Maybe next year with a bigger case...

hi. a quick search for pd in the mule db brings up these:
https://www.modulargrid.net/e/modules/browser?SearchName=Pure+data&SearchVendor=&SearchFunction=&SearchSecondaryfunction=&SearchHeight=&SearchTe=&SearchTemethod=max&SearchBuildtype=&SearchLifecycle=&SearchSet=all&SearchMarketplace=&SearchIsmodeled=0&SearchShowothers=0&order=newest&direction=asc

What is going on with (vintage??) Maths ???

I have seen all kinds of gear being declared vintage or rare over the last few years, to justify a higher price level. the latest i noticed was the vintage makenoise maths, with prices around 5/600 up to 900 and even 1100 ($ or €)

wtf??!! is it so much better than the newer and current model, to justify a price for used modules that is 2,3 or even 4 times the prce of a new Maths?

Am i missing something?
-- AS0leo

Even the 2hp 'Picnic Basket' (their 'Flagship Lunchbox') is presented with blank panels between modules. And they often do their public demonstrations with these spacers.
https://www.twohp.com/systems/picnic-basket

So the first and best suggestion will be to buy some blank panels (1 or 2HP), really. Not very exiting but much more comfortable.

• Sweelinck

I know what you mean, as you can see all modules from their drum kit lunchbox are already on this rack. Thanks for the suggestion Sweelinck, I will probably add some space in between but without buying any blank panel for the moment. In future I will decide if keeping or replacing them, I mean I like how they sound and they are so small that they allow to add for more modules but I would like a little bit more variety. I would probably add up some dedicated effect or swap it with an analogue drumkit, if I find something that fits, in the future...

Even the 2hp 'Picnic Basket' (their 'Flagship Lunchbox') is presented with blank panels between modules. And they often do their public demonstrations with these spacers.
https://www.twohp.com/systems/picnic-basket

A small-format macro oscillator like Twin Waves or Beehive (a 8HP clone of Plaits) would be welcome in a small box to complete your Threshold.

Finally I’ll add an attenuverter/attenuator, and probably remove Jam Jam since you have Pam’s.
-- Sweelinck

interesting oscillators, but I would have to add more clocks and mixers and effects to include more voices, and there's not enough room. Definitely not something for small portable systems (actually I was thinking if adding a couple more voice, but on the drum side, like a double voiced percussion like bongos or something like that, but still, I would need extra clocks and mixer inputs, so.... )

I agree maybe I can remove the Jam Jam from this rack for the prosecution of this thread as it might be seen as redundant, however I can't understand why you would add an attenuverter/attenuator. May I ask you to explain why it would be something useful to add to this particular setup?

I originally started out thinking that I would be happy with Euclidian patterns for Drum sequencing but I quickly found I wanted more control so added a Roboux LL8 and later a Beatstep Pro. Is this someting you've thought of or are you completely happy as you are as you already have a lot of trigger options?
-- wishbonebrewery

You caught me again, I do have an extra module for Euclidean patterns 😁 but I am on the opposite journey as I got tired of classical sequencers and I am more interested in generative music now. That's why one option on the table is also to get extra modulations, I would get a second PAM PRO but I don't like duplicating modules. Maybe I can find something similar, like 2 or 4 extra PAMish channels of CVs modulators, but I still haven't checked if there is actually something like that around (and the PAM PRO itself is quite new).

EDITED Nov 6th 2023, 20:59

At the moment I've got separate racks for each section, which is far from convenient for shuffling around modules. Is there an easier way to do that?

Also, key shortcuts for moving modules vertically would be nice too.
-- Mazz

If you click on Data Sheet in the rack planner power consumption is calculated by row. Does that help?
Also key shortcuts to move modules should work. Hover over a module, press enter, use cursor keys to move, enter to place ...

-- modulargrid

Ah excellent! I was using the "," and "." to move the modules left and right. I didn't know the Enter+Cursor Keys.
The Data Sheet is great for rows, but the Mantis and Go have separate left and right sections.

absolutely, this solves the problem, thanks, Dirk

Hello everybody!

This is my current Nifty-Case. I wanna get rid of both left modules (cells und chips) and I'm looking for replacement.

Additional gear:
Controller: KeyLab88, KeyStepPro, BeatStep
Drums: Volca Drum
Sampler: TE Pocket Operator KO
Another Synth-Voice: Behringer Neutron (I'm thinking of buying 2nd Hand Edge+Crave as well)
C+G Organelle M
Koma Field Kit
Software: Arturia V Collection
Recording on Tascam-device.

My current favorite modules for 24HP are:
1. Pams (I definetely will buy it)
2. A very thin Mixer
3. Bastl Pizza (I also thought about Rings, OxiCoral, PolyCinematic - Piston Honda would be great, but way too large...)
4. Ochd (I don't know... maybe I will try out Pams first and buy it later...I just read the very good ratings...)
5. 2HP Loop.

Well... I would really appreciate some thoughts of you guys...
I like complex modules with 100 functions and 200 pages manuals....
I also thought about one of these programmable modules from e.g. electrosmiths. I am a programmer and I also have this Organelle M, which can be programmed in pure data.

EDITED Nov 6th 2023, 20:32

It would be great to be able to split the rack in sections (Mantis, Go, etc.) with separate current draw calculations.
At the moment I've got separate racks for each section, which is far from convenient for shuffling around modules. Is there an easier way to do that?

Also, key shortcuts for moving modules vertically would be nice too.
-- Mazz

If you click on Data Sheet in the rack planner power consumption is calculated by row. Does that help?
Also key shortcuts to move modules should work. Hover over a module, press enter, use cursor keys to move, enter to place ...

it's not about typing in the description field, it's about using the "Text Replacement" function in Macos, where you can automatically substitute a text you type by a saved text (usually a short abbreviated text replaced by a much longer text)
-- DirkB

We added a Rich Text Editor lately to the offer form which might cause the issue.
I now have added a Legacy Mode button to return to the web conform standard form. Maybe that fixes the issue?

I am trying to find more UK makers, and it would be a huge help to have a search filter for country of manufacture on the site. Thanks.

That user has loads of positive feedback and was mentioned on the good traders thread. Thanks to you their name has now come up in the bad traders thread. Nice! /s

Not to start beef but i dont think that the Singularity just dose not stand up to the Famine. You could do almost the same thing with Famine if you turn the voltage down till the module is off and put trigger or mult the same trigger from the module or sharp env to Famine. You would have room for sweet spots with the voltage level knob, trig voltage and env shapes. The Singularity dose not sounds like a Noon either. Famine is more on the dangers side dont be to afraid of it. But with a Singularity "on the safer side" i would love to throw more things in it then just a capsitor in it. I like the open points on Error modues i want to explore it.

I originally started out thinking that I would be happy with Euclidian patterns for Drum sequencing but I quickly found I wanted more control so added a Roboux LL8 and later a Beatstep Pro. Is this someting you've thought of or are you completely happy as you are as you already have a lot of trigger options?

Even the 2hp 'Picnic Basket' (their 'Flagship Lunchbox') is presented with blank panels between modules. And they often do their public demonstrations with these spacers.
https://www.twohp.com/systems/picnic-basket

So the first and best suggestion will be to buy some blank panels (1 or 2HP), really. Not very exiting but much more comfortable.

A small-format macro oscillator like Twin Waves or Beehive (a 8HP clone of Plaits) would be welcome in a small box to complete your Threshold.

Finally I’ll add an attenuverter/attenuator, and probably remove Jam Jam since you have Pam’s.

I'm guessing you have other gear, synths, sound modules etc?
And bear in mind that closely spaced 2hp-sized module are very hard to use once they are patched and close to other modules.
-- wishbonebrewery

you guess right. it's my first system and I ended up with some extra room to fill

I think the issue you say about the 2hp drum kit it's not its real problem with me, since once a CV is patched to for instance to the Pamela, the knob underneath doesn't really need to be moved again. But yes, those 3 can stay together but can't be placed every where, you are right

I am not sure if adding more effects to the drum kit or replacing it with something bigger like for instance the LEPs, not necessarily right now, I am not taking new modules every month

EDITED Nov 5th 2023, 10:57

I'm guessing you have other gear, synths, sound modules etc?
And bear in mind that closely spaced 2hp-sized module are very hard to use once they are patched and close to other modules.

Not sure if something was just being changed but that 'Legacy Mode' button just showed up as a 'Toggle' button and the reply input form was stopping me use all of my letter keys, some worked and some didn't.
Weirdly now this seems OK again. Must have been a Glitch in the Matrix-mixer!