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I would consider pulling back a bit on some of the modules

Clouds for example could be replaced with an FX Aid (XL) for example

You could then get an og Rings - which is nicer to play with and Emilie gets some money for designing it (win/win)

Same with the sequencer - do you really need 4 channels of v/oct - get a simpler sequencer and tune oscillators differently (buffered) mult (already in the case) the same v/oct to each, perhaps

you'll also probably get away without a 2nd filter

maybe add a small 2hp utility mixer and a basic LFO

not sure how deep the case is - check depths!!!

have you already bought this? or is this just a plan

what are you aiming to do?

why the tiny modules? vca, lfo, seq, dsp? if not already bought - I would go bigger for all of these except maybe the seq - because they are not ergonomic - quad cascading vca (veils or intellijel), any bigger LFO, FX Aid (XL?)

one reason for going to the FXAid is that it is stereo in whilst the eric dsp is mono in

kinks would be a good addition for making more interesting modulation

OK that's a bit more like it

@toinouvltn the Maths does a crap-ton of things you don't think you'll need but you'll be patching one day and I think "I wonder if I could do this" and Maths will be sitting right there ready for you. To top it off, I prefer its envelopes to the Zadar a good bit, very responsive to wiggling, which is one of the joys of modular, and with a nice expressive range. I'd say this second case looks pretty good!
-- troux

Maths is an excellent module I would probably buy it before any of the others if I had the choice - read through the illustrated manual - the others are modules, Maths is a patch programmable analog computer

let's see what we can take out to get a bit of space for more important modules

do you really need 2 stereo inputs?

how are you mixing? audio submixes/cv/final audio - I see a STmix and a triple vca - and the middle section of maths - not a huge amount - maybe enough; may not! try patching in your head! or on paper - count outputs - count inputs - have you got enough ways to combine different things?

do you need a buffered mult? only really needed for v/oct - which you don't really need - use stackcables or headphone splitters

the mute module? how are you planning on using it? do you need 4 channels? better to use on gates than on audio

and the offset module from NE - I would rather have a matrix mixer - AI Synthesis or Rebel Technology - you can always do offsets with maths

EDITED Sep 8th 2020, 18:42

Buy a mantis

it's about the same price as the rackbrute - but doesn't have the power module and is 104hp

that way everything you have here + maths + a matrix mixer + kinks + a quad cascading vca will fit in case number 1

not a lot of utilities in the rack - these are usually the key to patching differently imo

specifically for improving modulation - which is probably where you are struggling

mutable kinks, matrix mixer (get a 4x4 if possible), another modulation source, some passive mults/attenuators, a sequential switch, some basic mixers would all open up patching more for you

it's also very easy to plug the same output of sequencer into the same module - swap these around
also try tuning oscillators to different notes/octaves (within same scale)

use clouds as an oscillator instead of an effect - put something in the buffer!

EDITED Sep 7th 2020, 14:59

well there are no wrong paths, as such, just more expensive ones and a few dead ends!!
good luck and have fun!!

well bear in mind that utility modules like these are generally quite inexpensive - stick as much as possible to brands like doepfer for a matrix mixer, a sequential switch, some passive attenuators and an mi kinks - probably not much more than the oscillator cost you and much much more useful! an oscillator is an oscillator - cheap utility modules are possibilities

haha - eurocrack indeed!!!

What support essential modules are you referring to besides Maths? I like the looks and function generator from Frap Tools called Sapel that looks cool to add at a later point. I already have a mini maths version in my 0-coast so want different approach to Buchla Serge function and noise generator. Intellijel Quadrax with the expander would get me into Buchla territory with two modules but like Frap Tool modules is fairly large in terms of HP footprint.

these are all really modulation sources - Maths I class as a complex modulator - I mean the bits that fit in between

yes the headphone splitters (intellijel hub, plankton etc etc etc) are a good start and are fine for passive mults - although they can get a bit annoying - i have a few of these, but in practice use either 2hp mults or stackcables

a few very useful techniques for expanding and creating interesting modulation:

1 mult the outputs from 4 modulation outputs - 1 copy to a modulation intput, 1 to a 4x4 matrix mixer - matrix mixer outs to different modulation inputs - instead of 4 you have 8 related modulation outputs! alternately use 3 modulation sources and send the 4th output back into the 4th input (feedback)

2 take a modulation output mult it a modulation input and the kinks top section (rectifier) - mult all outputs of the top section of kinks - 1 copy of each output to a modulation input - 2 of them patch to the middle section (logic) - patch outputs to modulation inputs - patch the last multed output from the top section to the bottom section (sample and hold) - add a trigger - patch the output to another modulation input - instead of 1 you have 7 related modulation outputs

3 attenuverters - patch a modulation source into an attenuator - pathc output into modulation input - attenuate and polarise the modulation as required

4 sequential switch pt 1 - patch a modulation source into the input - patch outputs to modulation sources - input trigger to switch - a single modulation source -> 4 modulation inputs

5 sequential switch pt 2 - patch 4 multed modulation sources to the inputs - patch output to a single modulation source - input trigger to switch - 4 modulation sources -> 1 modulation input

etc etc etc etc
the more of these little tricks you can do and the more you combine them - the more interesting the modulation you will be able to get out of a relatively simple and small set of modulation sources

I did have a major break through this week in learning how to control the modular from Elektron gear and also how to record and play the modular from Ableton Live DAW. Having this ability is quite powerful! If you spend a lot of time and cash on modular, it is wise to be able to sample and record your findings and use for later purpose in music production. The Doepfer A190-4 USB/MIDI to CV module was a pain to figure out but have it as part of my toolbox. For west coast touch controller, my new Make Noise 0-CTRL is tons of fun and super cool. I also use it with the 0-coast that got me started on modular a couple of years ago. I figure with COVID-19 lockdowns and no ability to travel to Europe for a vacation, I spent the money on new music tools and my studio.

-- sacguy71

I'm on the fence regarding these all-in-one packages - they are great especially imo the doepfer ones, but, there's always something annoying in them! anyway great you managed to get it working!

Open to masters like you and Lugia and others for feedback on where to go for a west coast experimental techno vibe.
-- sacguy71

low pass gates, sequencers (as opposed to 'keyboards' - unless touch sensitive control panels) and wavefolders/shapers are the 2 key ingredients of west-coast style synthesis imo

Hi Sacguy71,

Ha, ha, your enthusiasm is very enjoyable :-) But look for yourself at your above new rack... it's full already?! If you still can change the order then go for the wider (168 HP) rack or at least one more row, otherwise next month you are buying yet another case :-)

so you can add the support modules you desperately need in order to make a more playable rack!

Well my first advice you received already, take it easy... the above isn't really taking it easy, does it? ;-)

Second advice is, don't go for too many modules in one go and perhaps try to avoid here and there the "too sexy looking" modules? I am sure they are a lot of fun but some of them are pretty large in HP size and you got limited space; so check if those are really worth it from all point of views (price, space, functionality, beyond the sexy look, is it really worth it, etcetera). So, at the very least take it easy, don't order everything in one go, get a few modules first and then see if the rest of the plan still fits or if you like to update your above rack? But other than that, please enjoy!

buy the modules you NEED not the ones you want - there's a difference - stop buying for a while - start patching - what do you reach for - another voice, or something to extend your modulation? for example

You have chosen quite a few modules I don't have experience with or knowing them. So I can't give you much particular advice on those modules chosen. I have the Maths too, it's a nice module but for the money and the HP size, I sometimes wonder if the price-performance factor is high enough? I guess the Disting Ex is nice if you want to have a lot of functionality in one module. You can use that module then to use as a kind of "backup module". In case you are missing any kind of functionality, most likely the Disting can help you out till you got the module for that functionality that you require.
-- GarfieldModular

Maths is brilliant, but taken on face value I agree to some extent - however, it is way more than the sum of it's parts - if you are in doubt, then work your way through the illustrated manual a few times

But I would always recommend Maths and the same again in separate modules - once you get past about 2-3 voices - otherwise you need a 2nd maths!!!

I have no idea about which modules to use for screaming techno - from the look of the rack - usual noob issues - too many big shiny modules - not enough support modules - but that could just mean too small a case!!!

as for what you called your second dilemma - I would not be so hard on yourself - use the tools as needed - analog/digital - really who cares??? definitely not anyone in any audience you might have!

"If you construct this build, my bet is that you won't feel a pressing need for anything new for a hot minute. At least. You'll be finding new tricks for YEARS. Or so I hope..."

That moment when we learned @Lugia is actually an optimist at heart 🤣🤣🤣
-- troux

hahahahahaha

but what's a hot minute? may literally be a minute

I still think it's way too light on utilities

I'd at least consider replacing both the tiptop modules with smaller modules -

or replace batumi and/or zadar (and expanders) with more utitlities - a matrix mixer for example for mixing your other modulation sources together

or as I suggested earlier - an extra row - but maybe that's the future

whatever an mk2 is? some sort of drum machine?

you are mixing out of the box ?

if you do not own the cwejman already you do realise that they are near unobtanium/really fucking expensive, don't you?

saying that and assuming you are doing final mixing externally -

modulation sources!!!!! you have none other than the hermod -

what do you think your quad clock distributer is distributing to - do they really need envelopes?? in a lot of cases probably yes

utilities - plumbing - you have a lot of shiny expensive (see note about cwejman, above) modules, but there is nothing to connect them - everything and anything from matrix mixers to sequential switches research research research - which might be as little as reading a dozen other, older noob threads

it's easy as a noob to overlook these types of modules (I've even seen people write that they don't want to 'waste' money on a mixer ffs) because they are not immediately obvious in the construction of fixed architecture synths or softsynths

however, this is one of the major areas where modular synthesis has advantages over those 2, it exposes the plumbing

imagine your synth is like an apartment block - what happens without plumbing? and that's what a modular synth without utilities is

saying that go slowly grow organically

start with 1 sound source, 1 modulation source, 1 sound modifier, a way to play (hermod), and a way to listen (the L1 vca) and maybe a disting (fills holes 1 @ a time, and great for learning) and learn to patch what you have once you are very familiar buy another module and repeat - sooner or later you will reach for something you never even thought of - and then buy that module

That's a good start

I would save this dream rack and forget about it for a while!!

When you actually fill your rack you can compare and see how close you were!

Then save for an entire year and buy a larger case and new build.
-- sacguy71

or maybe better - start saving, buy a new case, grow organically as and when you can

congratulations!!!

always buy more cables/mixer channels/vcas than you think you need!! don't buy 2 cables buy 4 - you then you have them if you need them!

lots of people appear to get elektron gear working very well with modular - I would spend some time searching forums - particularly muffwiggler and reddit - it can't be that difficult to get it working - you are probably only a button press or 2 away - music tech companies are not the best at help unless it's only their products, which is kind of understandable!

if you still can't get it working then you should consider dumping the midi->cv module and getting a varigate and pams etc - at least that way you have some more space for utilities

utilities should not be an afterthought - they are an essential part of the plumbing of your modular (along with patch cables) - kinks and a matrix mixer (AISynthesis do one in 10hp) would be great additions NB this is not for mixing audio - it is for extending your modulation sources massively - these 2 combined can give you an extra 10 interesting and related modulation sources

I would re-read the Pams manual/advertising blurb - it can kind of do what you think it can but probably not in the way you think it does - for example the quantizer will only work on internally generated cv, not externally (afaiak) and it's not really a programmable sequencer - it is a great module and very good at what it does though!

you have mixed up 1u tiles - either pulp logic or intellijel style not both - if you are buying an intellijel case (which I suspect you are) then only intellijel sized 1u modules will fit - if anything else it'll probably be pulp logic - intellijel sized 1u will fit but not properly! - if you are DIYing it depends on the rails you buy, but in this case the rails etc will cost the same as for a 3u row - I'd go for the 3u personally - there's nothing particularly special about any 1u module that can't be done in way less hp in 3u, of course space may be a concern, but it's 10cm or so!!

your goals - my thoughts

SUMMARY: trying to do too much in too small a space with too many big feature modules and not enough support modules

• it should work in cooperation with a daw for further processing and control but also standalone

es9 ok - generative only standalone ok - I'd want at least some sort of programmable sequencer - something like a BeatStep Pro is always useful - or better yet - pick one to start and maybe save the others for case 2 or 3

• it should have tools for generative and random sound creation (but with control over the musicality)

ok - you've got some random (Bloom) and a function generator (falistri) but no real way of combining and altering them so they are more interesting (kinks and matrix mixer) - and only 1 vca (I bet you didn't realise that they are useful if not near essential for modulation as well as audio!)

• it should be able to create complete tracks (drums, bassline, synth, percussive stuff, .. )

you can't really do that all at once with this, can you? possibly everything separately, but definitely not at once - if you want to do this get smaller oscillators or get a bigger case

drums/percussive - modules or patch from scratch? patch from scratch is more modular, modules are smaller - neither is cheaper than a drum machine!!! - add a sub mixer (panning) for drums - get some low pass gates (buchla bongos)

maybe you are thinking of using the disting for this - I would buy this module early so that it leads you towards modules that you need, by exploring it's functionality - I usually want a kick, a snare and open/closed hats as a minimal drum/percussion system - probably won't get that from a single disting (even an EX)

bassline/lead/pad - yeah you can do 2 out of 3 - unless disting - see above

• it should be flexible and make fun for as long as possible, so that there is no quick reason to expand :)

that is a question only you can really answer and only when the case is full!

Other thoughts

Rainmaker is huge - there are plenty of other delay modules that are a lot smaller and just as good, if a little different - I would replace this so that you have room for a few more modules - Chronoblob2, Magneto etc all worth looking at

consider replacing the 2hp logic and s&h with a kinks - you get a rectifier as well - very useful!!

I think data is also quite big in a case this size! maybe for case no2 - also consider a smaller osc module - o'tool+ for example - or use the es9 to send whatever so you can use say vcvracks oscilloscopes when attached to the computer - if you need something to tune with get a pedal or use the disting!

(for a beginner) I would always recommend Maths over falistri - check out the maths illustrated manual online to see why

you don't need a buffered mult - really only needed for copying pitch?

consider the expander for the odessa

Mixing - do you want to have mono or stereo final mix output to the intellijel built in outputs via the 1u module?
if you want stereo and you want to mix in the rack - you need to take another look at your mixing solution - maybe you can use the es9 when standalone - would prefer a mixer with knobs on myself!

good to go slow!!!!

I would strongly suggest a minimum viable synth (a sound source, a sound modifier, a modulation source, a way to play, a way to listen) maybe 2 or 3 other modules (one of which should be a disting!!!!) at most and learn each module and how to play with them together - when you find yourself reaching for something that you don't have - or disting is stuck on buchla converter mode, for example, then is the time to buy the module you need not necessarily the one you want!

you say you could benefit from:
a clock? (this also applies to the quantizer) - ok aren't you using midi? you have a midi->cv converter!
- sequencing from a computer? use midi clock and notes should be quantized straight out of a midi -> cv
- playing from a keyboard - again quantized output - could use a midi merge and clock from a computer
- don't like the midi->cv module/sequencing midi in computer - take it out and get a sequencer - that has a clock out!
a quantizer - see clock
utility modules? - yes... everyone needs more utilities, even me! see below

Always best to get dc coupled everything if you can! - But not a lot of stereo mixers are dc coupled

What didn't you like about the Malekko Quad EG?

Intellijel dual adsr - do you really need more ADSRs? - I keep thinking about getting one and then looking at stages and realizing I have one and another 2 in peaks! - and then thinking about getting one - as those are always used for something else but most of the time I just use D or AD envelopes - this seems to be 'normal'ish for a lot of modular synthesis - unless you specifically want to play with a keyboard, then I can see the benefit or want really long - if you really do feel the need for more adsrs - then I would consider a pair of the 2hp ones - especially if you are a set and forget type - or at least get rid of the doepfer!

Maths - yes - brilliant module - worth way more than the sum of it's parts - a veritable patch programmable analog computer of a module - BUT I don't personally class this as utilities - whilst it has a slew (hehe) of utilities in it, I think it's more useful to see it as a feature module - so that you can patch program it - and not just use it for basic utilities - so I always recommend getting at least an lfo, attenuverters, etc as well... but you already have a function generator - do you need another?

Pam's - yeah it's useful - but do you need it? you already have a few envelopes/lfo and can get clock from midi - I'm not saying don't get it - I'm saying think long and hard before buying (as about everything else, really) - more triggers -> more envelopes -> more modules -> another/bigger case!

I'd look more towards variation of what you have rather than new modulation sources - kinks and a matrix mixer (dc coupled) and some stackcables, for combining and modifying the modulation you already have an d maybe think about replacing the clock divider with something that can give more than just straight divisions - 4ms Rotating Clock Divider or the nonlinearcircuits divide and conquer or 1/n or something altogether weirder

another module I would look at is disting - at least a mk4 or an EX - they are super useful as a learning tool (what does this do?), a way to show you what module you should buy next (I almost always use mine as a tape delay - and somewhere in the middle of my list of modules I want is - a Magneto!) and a great "in an emergency" module (I need another vca/vcf/lfo etc or a buchla converter for when your friend visits with his buchla, maybe!)

Thanks everyone,

I figured it out with help from the good folks at Noisebug and Malekko support. It is to match the red strip side to the -12v spot on the Doepfer A100 basic case. Worked like a charm, no smoke, nice green blinky lights and hours of fun exploring the new modules this evening. Yowzer, the Malekko Richter Anti-Oscillator, Dual Borg Filter and Batumi LFO are pure insanity. Incredible modulation choices. Plus nice sequenced melody flute like tones with my Korg SQ-1 or brutal industrial mayhem if pushed that way. Now to figure out what else to add to the setup to finish my first case? What would you recommend that would add spice and be helpful? By the way here is my current setup and test run of the new modules after I installed them this evening:

-- sacguy71

Glad to hear it - take your time - enjoy what you have and learn it inside out - don't buy anything else until you know. everything well and find yourself reaching for something that isn't there a good few times and repeat

Looks like a great plan - of course it will almost definitely change between now and the rack being full

So I would go slowly - and keep the starter rack for overflow!

I agree with farkas - performance mixer seems like a good idea - you will also need a submixer - maybe 2 panmixjrs (for drums), as does links and a different second filter

I'd also add to that kinks and a matrix mixer - to help with modulation - I would prioritise these before adding more modulation

All that seems like a good idea
a lot of people like the overdrive on veils too - so maybe take a look. at that
as for an oscilloscope -if you are using the one in vcv rack - why not keep using it? as you have the es9

I would try going to muffwiggler - there's a list of stores stickied in the eurorack forum - there are stores worldwide - not just US and DE! you might find something a bit more convenient!

RED stripe is -ve

there should either be a marker or a shrouded header on both the busboard and the module

if there is a shrouded header then the ribbon cable will only fit in one way

if there is only a marker - maybe a line, maybe the word RED, maybe -VE then match this to the red stripe

NB check the cable is made correctly: there is a tiny triangle on the cable header on the same side as the key - to the left - the red stripe should always match this

Nice - I have a York Modular Active Matrix Mixer and a Reverse Landfill Video Matrix Mixer - If I ever get another - and you never know, the AISynthesis one is at the top of my list! Don't forget to experiment with feedback mixing!

Next purchase looks like a power upgrade, then - I've got an befaco excalibus kit in the mail (overhaul of power for case 3) - I've got one already (case 4) and it seems solid and reasonably priced + it doesn't take up rack space!

EDITED Aug 30th 2020, 18:01

thought as much - a few sub mixers would be useful though before filters!
as I said another row for utilities for making more, more interesting modulation from what you've already got - I'd probably squeeze an fx aid xl in too

thanks!

looks great, but I would want another row for utilities - another quad vca (mutable or intellijel), a matrixmixer, a sequential switch, attenuators, kinks etc and all for modulation

how are you mixing - out of the box?

you could replace the atom with a full size rings - that way you would be showing Emilie how much you appreciate her work - instead giving all your money to cloners - but that's up to you!! - you may liked cramped,modules with minicontrols - I don't!

the modules that I would remove from this case without a second thought though are the plasma drive and the listen i/o

plasma drive - it is just too big you would be better with a 4hp one from Noise Engineering

the listen i/o is redundant the nifty case already has outputs built in and often they are not needed anyway!

if you replace the ATOM with an OG Rings, the plasma drive with something from Noise Engineering and dumped the listen i/o - you would have an extra 22 hp

I'd add a passive attentuator and Maths - check out the maths illustrated manual online to see why this is one of the most useful modules in modular synthesis

The best advice would be to get a bigger case - a Mantis perhaps - and go slowly

Kinks is a thought, I feel I would need two of them.

I would get one first and then the second if you still have the urge to buy it - excellent module though!

For whatever reason I've not considered much Doepfer gear, its probably for more aesthetic reasons than function.
-- wishbonebrewery

doepfer "invented" eurorack - lots of excellent basic building block modules at very reasonable prices - there are always special editions, vintage versions and the ability to change the knobs if aesthetics are important

EDITED Aug 30th 2020, 12:38

if you post an actual link to a public rack - not a link to a jpg - you will get a lot more feedback

Personally I think you have way to much in the way of feature modules - and not enough support

I'd take out the five12 vector sequencer expander and replace it with a quad cascading vca (either mutable veils or intellijel) - I might then take out the xaoc vca - whilst you can never have too many vcas - in this size case I. should think 4 is enough - you can always add a 1u if you find you need more

in the space of the xaoc vca I'd probably add kinks and a 2hp passive mult

BUT I would strongly recommend that you go very slowly - buy a minimum viable modular synthesizer for you

a sound source
a modulation source
a sound modifier
es9

as a starting point and become familiar with each module and patching them together - probably a few weeks - then add another module and learn how it works and integrates into your workflow

I would leave the sequencer to last - if you can cope with the workflow with es9 - if not I'd be tempted to buy a simpler sequencer like the korg sq1 - which will always be handy to have - even if you don't use it constantly

Currently, I have two Pittsburgh Modular Structure EP-208 cases but when maxed-out with modules they start to give off some noise.
-- morphon

what exactly do you mean by maxed-out - how close to the maximum are you on the power rails?

if you reduce the power draw - take out the most power hungry do you still have the problem?

maybe it's just time for another case and put a few lower power or passive modules in these cases to fill them up

otherwise Mantises have quiet and clean power (clean up to video rate)

Ah but have you checked out the XL - extra modulation points - it's a bit more than a forbidden planet, but it is very good value for money

Same with Maths (again a bit more expensive) - there's a lot there for your money - and it would fill a lot of empty space!

another option for rectification is kinks - and you get sample and hold, noise and logic in a small inexpensive package

if you like inexpensive, then there's a lot of very good options with doepfer

@wishbonebrewery

@garfieldmodular
Just now I think the next module may be dictated by price (quite possible the Tiptop Forbidden Planet VCF), I do feel I'm always running out of effects I like the Wash of sound that Clouds reverb gives but if Clouds is doing proper Granular stuff then I need something to help create that ambient smeared wash of sound.

A bit more pricey - but a Happy Nerding FX Aid XL would do a significantly better job of 'ambient smeared wash sound' than a filter

@defragmenteur
I do have quite a bit of modulation, Ochd, 2hp RND which I'm really enjoying for the random gate lengths to control the Freeze button on Clouds, Noise Engineering Clep Diaz, but you are right, I do seem to run out of LFO's pretty easily. And I need to do more about modifying their range (Offsetting, Full & Half rectification and Mixing them).

I'd concentrate on the multing and modification of modulation rather than adding more - shades, kinks and a matrix mixer (AI Synthesis for example), maybe a sequential switch and some passive mults or stackcables will go a lot further than a few extra lfos

I'd also consider Maths as being an interesting complex modulation source - especially if you work your way through the online manual enough times that you can patch program it without thinking too much

EDITED Aug 29th 2020, 12:36

it's common to refer to doepfer modules by their number, not their name - weird I know as it's difficult to remember!

googling the doepfer a-147-2 vcdlfo - https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&ei=RclIX_T9Ao7UsAe-q6EI&q=youtube+doepfer+a-147-2&oq=youtube+doepfer+a-147-2&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQDDIFCCEQoAE6BAgAEEdQwLwBWMC8AWDL4gFoAHABeACAAViIAaoBkgEBMpgBAKABAaoBB2d3cy13aXrAAQE&sclient=psy-ab&ved=0ahUKEwi0tIeJxr3rAhUOKuwKHb5VCAEQ4dUDCAw

lots of videos - but basically it's a resetable lfo with 4 waveforms, that has a vca attached which will open and close with the rise and fall of the delay lfo (unless something is plugged into the vca cv in - if nothing is plugged into the input then the triangle doepfer is sent to the vca input) and a delay which triggers after the lfo and starts a ramp which opens the vca and holds it open until re triggered - unless something else is plugged into the vca cv in - the delay ramp can also be patched to something else

same with the a-171-2

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&ei=Y8lIX6zmEsqxkwWf8bWICA&q=youtube+doepfer+a-171-2&oq=youtube+doepfer+a-171-2&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQAzoECAAQR1CGyQlY484JYPbSCWgAcAJ4AIABUYgBigGSAQEymAEAoAEBqgEHZ3dzLXdpesABAQ&sclient=psy-ab&ved=0ahUKEwjso76Xxr3rAhXK2KQKHZ94DYEQ4dUDCAw&uact=5

basically slew is the rate at which a signal changes - a slew limiter slows this down - you have 2 ways of limiting the slew of a waveform - on the way up and on the way down - so you can take a waveform that looks like this |\ and turn it into one that looks like this /\ by altering the up-slew amount and then to this /| by altering the down-slew

if nothing is patched to the input and trigger is sent to the trigger input then a single envelope based off the up-slew/down-slew will be output

if the cycle switch is engaged - then it becomes an lfo based on the up-slew/down-slew

midi out of elektron to midi in of module - set elektron midi channel to the same that the module is set (read manual on how to set this) - at a guess - cv1 is pitch - patch this to the voct of a vco - patch gate to envelope

hope this helps - might be a good idea to get a basic oscilloscope - so you can see what is happening to your waveforms

I'd have though cable height would be more important... so you can leave it patched!

EDITED Aug 27th 2020, 12:07

Hey thanks to both of you for the really thoughtful input! I tried to address common concerns up front (“how will this be sequenced”) etc, but even so all of this is super great.

NP

Some thoughts/responses:
- i was not aware of the Shallow Water, that pedal looks awesome! My thinking with the original setup was that the bass shouldn’t be sent through the same fix chain as the lead because delay and reverb on bass can be muddy and gross so having the lo fi junky as a later stage effect seemed to make sense. but i like this idea a lot
- however! the ADDAC pedal i/o is a really solid choice that i also wasn’t aware of and since it has two sends i could have multiple fix loops for different signals which is great
- i actually initially had Veils in here because i really liked the cascading aspect of it but also did recognize the amount of space it took.

at 12hp for a quad cascading vca - veils only works out at 3hp per vca - and given the cascading and amplification that most smaller vcas don't have - it's space well used

thanks for the great tips and reality checks around Pams and the rest. i love how flexible this all is but also it twists my brain up a bit trying to put it together. but in a good way, which is why its so much fun to think about.

that's why it's a good idea to start slow and grow slow - get a minimum viable synth - and then add gradually and naturallyfrom their - it may take you in a completely different direction (in terms of modules) than you thought - as you come to realise that a matrix mixer is more important than a 3rd delay, for example

Since I have the pedal board already I have been trying to resist adding fx to the rack itself, but I can see where it might still be worth it, particularly to be able to route fx sends in complex ways. maybe this can be accomplished with a couple mixer units and some sends. So it’s a good call out to be able to mix like crazy and focus on that ability to route signals. attenuators and rectifiers i am still learning about so I have some reading to do there!

one massive advantage of in rack effects is that you can modulate them - another is that you don't need to attenuate/amplify the signal to use them and as such are easier to incorporate into a mixing set up

yes lots of mixing is useful - not just for audio - where for shoegaze style music I would want to be (voltage control) mixing a lot of layers of effects - but also for control voltage (modulation and gates) too - newbies often forget about mixing entirely or only think about final stage audio mixing not sub mixing audio or any mixing of control voltages with or without voltage control

I'd be tempted to make a list of all the types of modules that you don't understand and then ask yourself what do you think they do before looking it up and once you have gone through that exercise go back and ask yourself what you would use it for note down any further questions you have about it, note them down - maybe the only way to answer some is to buy a module - a disting mk4 or ex may be a big help in this regard...

On the stereo front, I’m split on that. In terms of live performance most club PAs at the level I am at are mono anyway so stereo is a bit pointless. But for studio recording and of course headphone jamming it cant be beat.

I completely agree on this - but it is something to keep in mind

in terms of going bigger on the rack, i’ve looked seriously into both the intellijel 7u 104hp and the make noise 7u 104hp. people seem to not like the power supply on the latter but the bus looks like it could be really helpful for a project like this where lots of mixing and modulation is key.

seriously - I think the mantis has better power than either of those - definitely cleaner - I use mine for video which is much more fussy and see no unwanted noise artifacts in the signal

and the mantis is significantly cheaper - ok you loose the 1u row, but I've never been a fan, the functionality (that you actually need) can probably be had in 20-30hp or so for much less and the savings can be put towards the next case

if/when you need to take it out the decksaver lid and case are not that expensive to add

EDITED Aug 27th 2020, 12:04

Is that really a shuttle system? I don't know it well enough - but I thought it was a single panel? there's one available...

anyway - whilst reasonably balanced in terms of ticking boxes of sound sources, sound modifiers and modulation sources, for me at least there is a distinct lack of utility modules

I know that some people see utility modules as boring and unsexy, but these people do not understand modular synthesis very well - I see modular synths without them boring and unsexy...

Utility modules are the inexpensive dull polish that makes the expensive shiny modules actually shine...

it is in the spaces between the functional modules, where all signals, which are but electricity, can be combined, multiplied and modified, that the real magic in a modular synthesizer happens

at the very least I would want an mi kinks, a matrix mixer, a sequential switch, a quad cascading vca, some passive mults, attenuverters, offsets, a slew limiter, a switched multiple (all of them dc coupled, so that they can be used for modulation as well as audio) - some of which may be a few functions in one module - for example an mi shades or similar

in all probability if I built a rack with these modules in it I would add another 84 to 104hp of 3u, mostly for utilities and to have some space over for possible future modules

If I were constrained to these racks then I would throw out either the Magneto or the Rainmaker (probably the Rainmaker) in order to accommodate the minimal set of utility functions listed above

Thanks for the feedback, will take a look at the fx aid xl!
To be honest, I've use headphone splitters for a while now and it's just that I don't like the ergonomy of it, I much rather have a module for mult in my system!
-- Martebar

I completely understand don't like headphone splitters much, either - stackcables are pretty good though - if you really want a mult in the rack I'd consider a passive, if you don't need a buffered one - and I don't think you do - both saves cash and power consumption

if you are using stages for sequencing you might want more envelopes. Maths could more or less replace Function + Shades + Kinks and would give you an extra envelope for only 2hp extra space. Also, bear in mind you need 2HP for the Arbhar expander and that random modulation is really useful for getting the most out of granulators.
-- richc90

Whilst I absolutely love Maths - I wouldn't replace those modules in this case with it - mainly because I always see it as more than the sum of it's parts - I'd want both maths and those modules

I'd forego the Lofi Junky altogether and go with a Fairfield Circuitry Shallow Water (for my money it's pretty much the most musical effects pedal on the market). You can also combine delay and reverb in one pedal with the EQD Avalanche Run and save some room on your pedal board. For a small case, the suggestion of Pamela's New Workout is excellent. My $0.02, which is probably worth more like 1/2 a penny.
-- baltergeist
nah - at least 1.5c, haha

the shallow water is a great alternative to the lofi junky!

for me, for the required genre - I'd want lots of layers of both delay and reverb - so the more the better!

looks quite balanced to me
probably don't need the buffered mult (only needed for pitch) and if you need passive mults then I'd expect you to use headphone splitter style ones or stackcables - so this could go and make space for an fx aid xl which would add a multitude of different modulate-able effects in a small space

well that was a lot to read!!!

so you want a modular synth that you can sequence externally that has 2 voices (nominally bass and lead) and when combined with your pedal board will be able to produce music in the style of My Bloody Valentine/Alessandro Cortini

and here is another!!!

1 - get a bigger case - I would go for a tiptop mantis - it is very portable (similar to a guitar - carry it on your back) and has very good power - does not include parts that are irrelevant to some extent - especially as in your use case you are only using the buffered mults - and for all the 1u that you have added there are often cheaper/better solutions in 3u - get some blank panels to cover up the gaps (or make some) - you only need one buffered mult for example - you could use a mutable links for this and have 2 utility mixers as well in 4hp - I would at least have a play with this idea - don't fill the case - concentrate on what you think you want to fulfill your current goals - at least this way you will have space to add the modules that you find you need in the future without having to buy another case almost immediately

2 - if you are married to the case then you really have too many 'feature modules' and not enough support modules and not enough of the right support modules and a lot of redundancy and a mixing strategy that has not even been been considered

take out:

the lofi junky and get the pedal - it's cheaper, takes up no rack space and you loose very little in terms of modulation - which you have very little of anyway

sloths is a good 2nd modulation source for adding to another but not great as a primary modulation source imo - remove this and replace with say pamelas new workout - possibly get a 1u sloth, if you want to add some chaos and can find some way top boot something out of the top row - quadratt

optomix - I would remove this as well - it's big - plaits already has lpgs internally and ripples has one too plus your mixing solution needs improvement anyway

tiptop z4000 - replace this with either something smaller - do you really need adsr (probably not) - with pams above this is probably completely redundant in any case

that frees 34 hp and uses 8 (pams) which leaves 26hp

I would want vcas and mixing for everything else and a lot more in the way of utility than you can fit in this size case - plus aiming for a MBV esque sound I would want more modulatable reverb and delay modules - a couple of fx aid xls for example

Even removing all those modules - I see a lot of mono audio outputs (plaits (2), sto (3), ripples (3), pedal board return(1) = 9 audio outputs) and no way of mixing them to stereo - which is what your headphone module is expecting

currently the only mixer you have is duatt - which mixes 2 channels to one - yay plaits is covered - maybe

I would want a quad cascading vca such as veils or intellijel - but there won't be enough space for these

I think the best bet would be to go for a selection of Happy Nerding mixer modules - some combination of 3x VCA, PanMixJr, 3x stereo mixer, 6xMix will get as close to solving the problem in the available space as possible - probably won't be able to mix all outputs all of the time

3 - replan totally - ignore anything to do with cases for now work out what you actually need

2 sound sources - plaits is great as 1 of these/sto is fine for the other
pedal i/o - I would consider the ADDAC as it has 2 channels!
1 or 2 good modulation sources
a filter for the sto
a quad cascading vca - mutable veils and intellijel are really the only 2 I would consider here
whatever in rack effects modules you want - as I said above - a pair of fx aid xls would be a good choice for this style of music

Once you have all of those in a big (make it as big as you can, it is a sandbox, not an actual rack) modulargrid rack work out how you can provide modulation for all the modules - do you have enough - almost definitely not - spend some time thinking about how utility modules such as attenuators, mixers (especially matrix mixers), multiples, vcas, rectifiers, logic etc can leverage a relatively small number of modulation sources and what other utility modules you may need - kinks is an exceptional utility module in this regard - it can turn 1 modulation source into 7 related but different modulation sources, for example

Now consider how you want to mix the audio - do you want submixes before/after/between effects etc - does the mixing want to be voltage controlled? do you need stereo output? if so consider how you are going to convert mono to stereo and how you are going to mix stereo signals - if it was me I would want to be able to run effects in both parallel and series, over all the sound sources, individual parts and all points between

add all the utilities and mixing into the rack - don't rule out Doepfer and Ladik and other more inexpensive brands - if the module does what you want then use that over a more expensive brand

now take some copies of that rack and try to consolidate it into rack configurations

try some with 1u rows - the 7u/104hp intellijel case may be a good starting point for that one, or a mantis or even the palette - maybe you need to go for a micro version of a few modules - maybe you need to take one fx aid xl and one regular one - to enable you to cram what you need into a case - preferably with some space available - so that you can add something you find interesting down the line, without having to throw something else out you need

and then get a minimum playable version of what you need and start playing with it - add the other modules slowly - maybe spread the cost out over a year, or longer - so that it is affordable

EDITED Aug 26th 2020, 14:00

might be an idea to lay it out like a rackbrute then, no?

it is very easy to change the number and size of rows and the hp! and with the power module

so it's easy to see how much space is actually available - 8hp??

by the sound of it the first thing you might want to buy is another case

and then a lot of basic utility modules - currently the case looks like an advert for a selection of the 10 most popular modules - workout what you can do with things like sequential switches, kinks -brilliant module, matrix mixers, attenuators etc - remember utilities are for modulation as well as audio - I would go for simpler cheaper functional building blocks over flashier more expensive ones - they generally provide much more flexibility - possibly at the cost of a few hp

of the modules that you mention I would definitely pick up maths though - it's a great module - a veritable patch-programmable analog computer - see the illustrated manual on line for more information

EDITED Aug 25th 2020, 13:52

The case upgrade makes a lot of sense as you are already invested in their 1u modules

I would want more modulation and utilities - quad cascading vca, matrix mixer, kinks, panning mixers, attenuators, sequential switch etc

I'd look at the happy nerding fx aid xl as at least one of the effects units - smallish, reasonably priced and loads of possible effects - and better modulation options than it's smaller sibling!

If you are going to add a lot of stero effects to a load of mono outputs then at least one panning mixer (panmixjr, for example) would add a lot - sub mix mono sources into a stereo field before processing with effects

How are you mixing what you have already???

EDITED Aug 25th 2020, 13:17

You mention about predominantly using cv/gate and not midi, can I ask for curiosity sake when would the use of midi be required as opposed to cv/gate?

a lot of people use midi to sequence (mostly from computers or - and maybe you could from the matriarch, but not much piint as you can use cv/gate from the matriarch - if you are not going to use midi then in buying the palette you already paid for 1/2 a midi converter - buying a mantis you pay nothing for midi converter unless you want/need one

In regards to listening to the Matriarch, my current setup is directly from the main outputs into a Saffire pro 40 interface. This shouldn't be affected by the use of Eurorack as long as I patch everything back into the Matriarch mixer right?

you can patch straight from the rack into the interface - no need to go via the matriarch unless you want to - just make sure your gain staging is ok - possibly attenuate signals from the rack (some passive attenuators will do the job)

NP

In regards to the case, in reality it is something I'm not completely married to, I guess it's the minimal size which is more the point - I'm not looking to expand and expand so alternative small cases like you mention are welcome :)

I think it comes down to what you want - there are pros and cons for all case sizes and manufacturers of cases

My view is that even if the goal is a small case (under 6u and under 84hp) - then it is often better to start with a bigger case - most people seem to swap modules quite a bit before they settle on what they need - as this process will be significantly easier with a slightly larger case

the price differential - not taking into account the preinstalled 1/2u row - which I see as worth maybe 50 - is negligible - and they kind of tie you into buying extra modules to get a lot of those components to work

but - matriarch is already eurorack audio level and you are predominantly going to use cv/gate not midi - so you don't really need either of these - the other 1u modules, there are similarly priced alternatives in 3u

if you feel that a big hole in a case will inspire GAS then get/make some blank panels (this is a good idea anyway)

go slowly buy an interesting modulation source - Maths is really popular for a reason ("maths illustrated manual" via google) - maybe add a disting (mk4/ex) as a versatile module, maybe a quad cascading vca (veils would be my 1st choice then intellijel) and an interesting effect and start patching it with the matriarch

you don't mention how you are listening to your matriarch - via a mixer?

As I say, I am new to eurorack and seems I have mistaken the interaction between it and the matriarch? My initial thoughts were to clock from the matriarch to pams and use the eurorack modulation to affect the matriarchs features, using the cases trs as a line in for other potential sources.
It's ok if I've got it all wrong though lol, that's why I'm here! :)

Great attitude!!!!

I appreciate your "I'm married to the case statement" - but seriously get a divorce and get a mantis - much better value. in the long term and easily portable unless you are a small child and the 'included' modules don't really save any money and tie you into buying 1u modules to use them

BUT

how are you planning on sequencing v/oct for rings/uBurst? I think you may need the 1u midi module - the case provides only the usb or din via trrs inputs - NOT the cv/gate that you need to sequence a modular

you probably want to get the 1u line out module - so you can use the case outputs

I don't see the need for steppy at all - it seems completely irrelevant - there is nothing here that begs to be trigger sequenced

I would dump 2 of - pams, batumi and sloths - probably keep batumi and add a 1u sloth - maybe swap batumi for zadar? - you simply have too much modulation in too small a rack with not enough to actually modulate!!!

I would get rid of both of the vcas and the stereo line in - and replace with a good quad cascading vca - veils or intellijel - they are pretty much the only ones that amplify and will function perfectly as line ins (appropriate cable required)

I would add kinks - incredibly useful set of tools in a small space

this may leave you enough space to add a stereo mixer and maybe a second filter

swap typhoon in instead of pams (and move this to last in order) - in the 4 starter modules

next module after those should be a quad cascading vca - I prefer veils (more gain), but the intellijel is also a good choice - as both of these amplify (most vcas are actually attenuators) - and you can use one of the channels to amplify the sub37 - not that you should need to - clouds has loads of input gain - typhoon should be the same - so try it first (you need a 1/4"->1/8" cable)

I'd probably choose between o&c and pams - and use the money saved to get some simple utility modules - logic, mixers, sequential switches etc

Is this the expander for Dylan's 1000 VCO monstrosity? ;-)
-- Lugia

don't you mean Sam Battle (Look Mum No Computer)?

Yeah I realized my mistake and took them off. I'll make it public.
-- moonstomp

but I still can't click through - maybe because it was private when posted - idk... anyway here's a link to the rack -

why do you think you need a midi module? - you already have one in the 1u section

I'm not convinced it's the right midi module for you, if in fact you do need one, though - why? because you have more 'voices' than midi channels - maybe you don't need them all and are going to tune all your vcos to different scale notes or always use both dixie IIs at the same pitch - more channels gives more flexibility - but what do I know? I don't use midi

the way I look at this your rack is too many voices, too many big effects modules (do you really need 2 granular effects/voices?), a bit too much modulation and not enough support modules (utilities) for this size case - maybe just maybe enough vcas, but nowhere near enough mixing!

don't worry this is one of the most common starter 'dream' rack problems

my advice is to buy a minimum viable synth and grow slowly and 'organically' - that is start with:

1 sound source - a vco
1 sound modifier - an effect or filter
1 modulation source - one of maths, peaks, quadrax or pams
a way to play - a midi module if that's how you want to sequence
a way to listen - possibly just the 1u headphones to start with

maybe add the disting mk4

and learn to patch and play those modules inside and out - take your time - once you realise that you are missing something buy that module - if you buy the disting and find you are always using it for a specific purpose buy that module and use the disting for something else - and repeat until satisfied that you have all the modules you want and can get the most out of them - when you find you need a mixer, buy a mixer (get more channels than you think you will need, because you will need them sooner or later)

a quick word on mixing - you have both mono (vcos/filter) and stereo modules - you probably want to mix some of the vcos to send to the filter (need a basic unity mixer) or to one of the effects (and a panning mixer) and then mix the effects together (and a stereo mixer) before sending them to the outputs - plus some mixing for modulation sources (see a quick word on utilities)

a quick word on utilities - compared to a lot of other modules - utility modules are often seen as boring and not worth spending money on - especially by newbies - when in fact utilities are the inexpensive dull polish, that makes the expensive shiny modules actually shine and stops them tarnishing - spend some time researching the different types and how they are used - they are a great way of leveraging minimal modulation sources to being modulation powerhouses and promote variation - matrix mixers, logic, switches etc are extremely useful in this regard - some of these are implemented in disting. - but you will still need mixers - and remember as powerful and great as diting is it can only do 1 thing at a time

EDITED Aug 19th 2020, 18:16

@Ajai

you'd be surprised how many people are shocked by the size of eurorack when it actually lands in their hands - despite having watched countless videos etc because they've never actually seen one in real life

I still see nothing critical - in fact I specifically state that it's a well specc'ed system - just that there are some drawbacks that they may not have thought about - namely size and potential resale market

maybe I shouldn't have used the word "trapped", a slight over exaggeration perhaps, but really I haven't got time to search through a thesaurus to find a word that means trapped, but less so

if any of this is enough to put anyone off, or dull their enthusiasm for, modular, then they really weren't into it in the first place - that was in no way my intention and I truly believe that the more modular synthesists there are the better

the blatently obvious thing is that you have 2 uzeus power supply modules that you don't need as the intellijel cases are powered

why do you think you need a midi module?

it might be an idea to make sure your rack is public - I can't click through and there are some modules I don't quite recognise - unsurprising really considering there are over 7000 eurorack modules on the site