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I'm with Lugia. This seems good to me as is.
I love the 3xMIA but the Levit8 should give you similar functionality.
Have fun!

Yes! I came to post this. This would be great to play with 19 inch rack gear configurations.

an offset module would be something like shades NOT kinks

How many support/utility modules would I need in a setup for each voice? Like if I have 4-6 VCOs and 4 LFOs, how many logic modules, matrix mixers, switches, VCAs, EGs, and logic/offset modules would I realistically need for a good setup?
-- sacguy71

as many as you need is the answer - do you find yourself reaching for an extra mixer? or logic module or EG or VCA or whatever

if so you need that module so buy it - this is why disting/o&c/maths are particularly useful - as they can stand in for so many things as and when you need them

a good starting point is 2 vcas per vco - but that really only applies to east coast style synthesis - more is useful - and remember some 'vcos' etc have vcas built in

for my 7 voice/4 filter rig (total 63 modules) I have Triple Sloths, Maths, Stages and Peaks (plus a second peaks to be built) as envelope generators/lfos, links, kinks, 3 shades, 2 passive mults (+ a handful of headphone splitters and 2 dozen stackcables), 2 2hp trim, a sequential switch, a buffered mult, Marbles, sinfonion, an a-151 sequential switch, a morphing controller, an 8 way attenuator, a switched multiple, a bank of 8 a/b switches, 2 clock dividers, veils, a dual vca, 2 clock dividers, a panning mixer, a matrix mixer, a 2hp tune/tm combo, Streams, 2 pedal interfaces (one with a cross fader), an instrument input, 2 compressors, branches, a micro mixer, an inv mix, a joystick, an erica swamp, 5 waveshapers and an ES8/ES6 - so roughly 2/3rds of the modules are 'support modules' and I think I need more envelope generators and mixing - currently mixing outside the box - NB I use and abuse as much of this as possible with my video rig - mostly the waveshapers and morphing controller

EDITED Sep 22nd 2020, 13:34

Thanks a ton for your answer, I can't stress enough how useful it is to me :)

On drum modules: alright, it makes sense to drop them all + I didn't mention that I also had a DFAM. I totally forgot about noise modules indeed. Do you have preferences on these? I found the entropy by Zlob, that also has an expander that adds blue and purple noise. The noise and filter from Verbos seems interesting too.

Maths: check ✅ To me, another argument for going with Maths is also the ton of ressources available. I will also wait a bit before buying the Joranalogue, as they feel a bit less necessary than a number of other modules. Also, I feel like the Just Friends already offers nice ways to screw with clocks.

On Borg, would you go for the Borg 2 rather than the dual borg? I'm having difficulties to find any of them but I'm planning to trade my Jove 80 as soon as one of them is available.

Yeah, I didn't really pay attention to the order of the modules, I'll make an updated version of the rack once I digest all the information you gave me.

Thanks a lot again for your help!
Hugo

I just picked up the Industrial Music/Harvestman Bionic Lester MK3 and that is one crazy complex and deep dual filter that can do a million things. For LFO, I really like Batumi Quad LFO a lot and IME Kermit MK3. Both have quad LFO options and the Kermit can do even more like function as an envelope, S&H, oscillator and more. But lots of programming so have to be open to a super deep module.

EDITED Sep 22nd 2020, 06:04

Thanks Lugia,

I have a Befaco Hex VCA, Doepfer DVCA, and Intellijel Quad VCA in my two 6u racks and passive mults, buffered mults as well as Kinks for offsets/logic. My follow up question regarding utilities and support modules is this:

How many support/utility modules would I need in a setup for each voice? Like if I have 4-6 VCOs and 4 LFOs, how many logic modules, matrix mixers, switches, VCAs, EGs, and logic/offset modules would I realistically need for a good setup?

The Filter 8 is a modulation hog...throwing some more LFOs/envelopes at it would be useful. Also, the Filter 8 is pretty much the same thing as the STG Mankato, so it also outputs signals with different degrees of phasing. This makes it useful as a device for generating cancellation signals as well as a VCF. It's worth having, but my choice for ultra-screwy filtering has to go to the Intellijel Morgasmatron. First up, it's a filter pair, sort of like the Sallen-Keys on the MS-20. Secondly, it has some very interesting patchpoints, notably CV over resonance which I'd like to see more of out there. Another "sleeper" filter is Doepfer's A-106-1...another Sallen-Key pair version, but in THIS case it offers an insert point in the resonance path, allowing you to screw around with processing the filter signal ONLY. These pair wonderfully with delays; you could have the 106-1 causing the delay to degrade in quality with every single repeat, for example.

Honestly, you might find the Filter 8 and 106-1 to be a pretty excellent combo, given what each has as their "special trick".

You might already have one. Check your attenuators without an input to them to see if they output CV offsets in that state, as many active attenuator modules double as offset gens.

EDITED Sep 22nd 2020, 01:25

Change nothing. I know there's always that naggy little voice in the back of your skull, questioning things, but this is really spot on. I would take this to hardware with no regrets.

By offsets are you referring to mixers, rectifiers and inverters? I use the ones in Kinks to good effect with LFOs and envelopes quite a bit now that my Kinks arrived. WMD SSF makes a nice offset combo module as well as Mannequin Cold Mac. How many of these would you recommend per 6U rack that has 3-5 voices? Logic modules are fun as well. I want to get another offset module and logic module.

Hi

Currently, my rack looks like this

The two Gristleizer modules (filter and VCA) are borrowed, so I have been thinking about a permanent filter. I think I have settled on a Joranalogue Filter 8, and have been wondering what utilities would help to get the best out of it.

Beyond that, the next purchase is likely to be a mimeophone, as a delay/reverb seems like a sensible addition ( probably accompanied by a smallish stereo mixer, perhaps a Doepfer a-135-2 M)

Any suggestions gratefully received
Ta

The most important category you're missing from your list are offsets. I'm not sure how people get by with so few offsets, but I can only conclude that their music must simply lacks the nuance that comes from being able to dial in a specific range of CV voltage...

I wouldn't say clock and clock dividers are utilities, more like LFOs. But comparators and rectifiers are two other important utilities that you're missing there.

EDITED Sep 21st 2020, 15:15

Well, finally, I've decided add ochd, kinks and Zadar. I'll keep function for the moment, and the others modules. The result rack will look like:

Ochd and kinks had arrived, and in first test I've noted it was a good choice, because I'll free so much outputs from PNW's, and now I could modulate almost all parameters on elements, and keep outputs from Pamela's for the others modules. I guess when Zadar arrive it will be even better.

Thanks you so much for the tips, they are so helpful.

EDITED Sep 21st 2020, 11:33

We all know that the sexy voice modules and filters get the screen time on Youtube whenever Divkid or someone else promotes the gotta have it big module. BUT support and utility modules while not sexy are super essential sauce for a good modular setup. What are your top ten must have ones in even a small setup and why?

Here is my list:

Mults- passive and buffered
Logic: Kinks, Cold Mac, Klavis Logic xt
Quantizer
Clock and clock divider
Attenuator/Attenuverter
Mixers: audio and CV
Switches: ALM Busy Circuits Boss Bow Two, Doepfer sequential switch

So far I have Links, Kinks, tons of passive mults to plug patch cables into as well as mixers and attenuators in both my small setups. Looking at getting WMD/SSF Toolbox and Mannequin Cold Mac and perhaps an Expert Sleepers Disting EX.

My case is almost done, but I have a persistent feeling that I need to add something like a 3xMIA or A*B+C. In other words, more mixing, offsetting, and/or VCA capabilities... I already have a LEVIT8, 333, a bunch of 1u Duatts, 3xVCA, etc. Am I tripping? Should I replace Tree with a 3xMIA? Is there anything else I should be doing differently here?

As you can probably guess, the rack is for noise / drone music with an emphasis on chaotic or stochastic processes and signal processing and less emphasis on sequencing.

Link to upper case (7U 104hp)

Link to lower case (7U 104hp)

EDITED Sep 21st 2020, 03:31

There's a bunch of issues here. First up, if you're looking to lose something, lose the drum modules. These days, the drum machines we're getting don't have many disadvantages over modular drums, so my suggestion would be to get a standalone. DO make sure it has clock in and clock out, though, as there'll be times you'll want to drive the Pam's with it, and at other times you'll need to drive the drum machine's clock with something in the cab. Also...noise module. Very necessary if you're trying to design your own percussives.

Next up...of the Joranalogues, I'd lose the Contour. As you'd suspected, Maths fits MUCH better here. The Dual comparator and the CV processor are super-useful for a number of things...the latter, modulation tampering and the former, if you add some Boolean logic, is a fantastic way to screw with clocking behavior by using freerunning slow LFOs to shut down and/or turn on different voicepaths.

BORG filter, not the Boogie. Rationale here is that the Borg gives you two VCF/gates with variable response. And this means you can have screwy things like a bandpass gate or a highpass gate in addition to the typical LPG thing, or you can couple both up together for weird filter curves.

I would also consider adding some dedicated ADSR envelopes for your main VCF, main VCA, and the like. The Zadar is awesome (esp. with its expander; the Batumi has one as well) but it seems more like the proper implement for all sorts of other modulation sources that you can implement all over the place in this build. Have a look at Doepfer's A-140-2...it also gives you some CV over envelope parameters, and it's only 8 hp.

The VCOs need a submixer. Since it's a set-n-forget module as a rule, a 2hp one will work here. BTW, since you really only have the three VCOs here, you can toss the Buffered Mult. These come in handy when you get above a certain amount of splits in a single CV and you want to avoid detuning from voltage sag...but three isn't quite in that area yet. More like five (or more) works with these. And you don't need buffering for anything else, so I'd suggest keeping some inline mults handy so that you can regain space you'd lose to mults.

Last thing I'd consider here would be to reorder the rack so that the signal flow makes more sense. As an example, right now you've got the Diode Chaos in the upper right...and the Select2, which has your sample and hold capability, is bottom-middle. These really need to be co-located, and there's plenty of other spots that need this, too. Try and envision what you're doing here as building up functional "blocks"...random sources here, VCOs there, filters in...well, you get the idea. Grouping by function really snaps a modular's capabilities into focus.

EDITED Sep 21st 2020, 01:29

Sure thing Garfield! Same here, I plan to visit places in socal after covid ends to try out verbos and buchla gear for fun as well as some other more esoteric things. Endorphin.es has some cool modules worth checking out as well. Would love to try out the ground control, drum modules and shuttle system. Yes, it can get seriously expensive. Best to do it gradually. I have plenty to keep me busy for at least a year or two now. Only really need a clock and switch and these are not expensive modules fortunately. Maybe get Hertz Donut MK3 if it comes in stock toward end of the year.

Hi Sacguy71,

Thanks a lot for your extensive details on those brands, I will keep that in mind for future decisions. In October I plan to visit my local dealer (if Covid-19 situation allows of course) to hopefully being able to check out the Ground Control (of Endorphin.es), if I have time left, I think I should try a few Noise Engineering modules to give them a second chance :-)

Yes, I agree, from a financial point of view this hobby is a serious disaster but indeed not much as buying a new house ;-) At least not yet, I wish I had a bigger house so I have more space for Euroracks but other than that there is no reason yet to sell my house :-)

Going to zzzzzzzzz, good night and kind regards, Garfield.

Hi Garfield,

Well I never expected cool sway like the cute wooden toys with Mutable Instruments purchases so that is nice touch. They do look good on my case but a cat would be better hehe. Yeah, IME modules are super hard to come buy here in the USA and I am in California so not really that far from Portland and Seattle where IME/Harvestman makes the gear. Friends of mine have older versions of their stuff and I was impressed by the sounds and design and happy with them so far. Expensive modules but do quite a bit. The Kermit can be a quad LFO, quad EG, dual VCOs and S&H noise generator- plus presets and create and save custom wave forms of your own. WOW! I don't know many modules that can do that in one device except maybe some of the Rossum or 4ms stuff. Plus they are very gritty industrial hardcore nasty tones perfect for my work as well as bell tones. I was able to get an angry growling dog tone out of mine last night which was cool. Plus Scott Jaeger of IME/Harvestman is a genius. He keeps adding features and making his stuff better with each version.

Regarding Noise Engineering- they make really good techno industrial modules. I love my BIA and Cursus Iteritas. Easy to use many wave shaper options and less expensive than IME/Harvestman and way less complex to learn as well. Pair them with an LFO or two to trigger multiple tones out of each module works wonders. I can get a bass lead and kick drum out of BIA and similar results with Cursus. Their panels are very simple but effective and easy to use controls. Complete opposite of IME/Harvestman modules which seem to require lots of patiences, reading manuals, watching videos and time to learn to program their computer like interfaces.

I love Make Noise! My 0-coast was my first step into modular patching world. Just got the 0-ctrl which is a very fun touchpad sequencer controller. I am saving for a Make Noise Shared System since it would work better for me than to create a set of the same modules in another case. But I wanted variety hence why I did not buy Maths or Rene yet and just save for that complete system to pair with my 2 racks :-)

Erica Synths is great- the black polivoks filter is fun to use. Would love to try out the techno system one day after Covid ends.
Heard the drum sequencer is not that great however. I may get the sample drum or pico drums at some point and the smaller LPG they make.

I like Doepfer- dead simple and basic. Perfect for using with crazy modules as a baseline and scratchpad. Easy to learn. Functional and affordable. It lets me concentrate on learning the more difficult and esoteric modules like Kermit so I can just plug in the Doepfer basic VCO module to it and test and not get distracted with a crazy whizbang VCO. The Doepfer VCS A171-2 is great module and lots of sound shaping options on par with half of a Kermit or half a Maths.

Xaoc Devices is superb. I love my Batumi Quad LFO quite powerful and easy to use. Want a Belgrad and Odessa but every synth shop is out of these two modules so will wait until future when I have bigger 12u case to get them. The Zadar looks amazing as well. On par with IME/Harvestman for power packed features.

Modular is the most fun I have had with music since I started learning guitar a few years ago. I still love my hardware synths but the patch madness is therapeutic and ultimate freedom in creativity. Expensive as you want it to be like anything in life but less than a house, exotic car or 100 year bottle of scotch at least.

Hi Sacguy71,

Ha, ha, so you are saying that besides our modular synth hobby we should maintain a wooden toy hobby too? Hence buying a lot of Mutable Instruments modules?

It's a pity that IME (ex-Harvestman) is quite difficult to get here where I live, can't really have it tested. Noise Engineering is a slightly bit easier to get but... somehow... their front panels aren't really convincing me, but that might be just me. Besides that, I am not convinced about their price-performance ratio, are you? It's good to hear that you like the brand though :-)

How about Make Noise, Erica Synths and Doepfer then? At least I like them quite a bit! Did you checked out Xaoc Devices? They have quite a few nice bits here and there too. You have Batumi already if I remember well?

Definitely with modular synths we got ourselves a fantastic hobby, that's for sure! :-) Kind regards, Garfield.

Definitely need more VCAs. I use a Befaco Hex VCA and that gets heavy use in my new setup. Quad VCA by Intellijel in my other case is great as well.

Hi Garfield,

Thanks, yeah with COVID lockdown and recovery from a broken ankle, I need a fun hobby to do for now and into the future. It is expensive but a vacation to Europe each year costs as much and at least the modular system gear lasts forever if you take care of it. I probably won't add much to it for a while due to how much more complex the IME Kermit, Bionic Lester and Quadrax modules are to fully learn plus how to route CV with Kinks and Links to create self generative patches. Fortunately, the other modules are out of stock so it puts my spending on hold for a while. I will get a way bigger 12u case next time. So far, out of the modular companies, I really dig the Noise Engineering and Industrial Music Equipment/Harvestman (IME) modules a lot. Intellijel and Mutable Instruments make amazing products as well. I like how Mutable Instruments send you a nice wood toy with each purchase! That is nice gesture of sway for buying their stuff. Now I see why Jim likes that company so much! You get cool modules that sound great and have tons of utilities and wood custom hand made toys as well.

Hi Sacguy71,

Hey, hey :-) Another enjoyable video from you, seeing you being happy with your second rack! :-D

To my surprise, I see empty spaces in this second rack, wow! ;-) In another post just now I saw you planned that second rack already full, so enjoy the last few moments that you have space left and then save money for a third rack, ha, ha, it looks like the modular synth "bug" bite you well ;-)

Thanks a lot for sharing this, please continue to enjoy the fantastic modular synth world and kind regards, Garfield.

Hi everyone,

Been having fun with new modules thus far in second rack. I am planning to complete my setup with the following configuration and wanted to gather your feedback on what can be improved or changed below.

I use external sequencers but want to make sure that I have sufficient utility modules to create self generative patches that allow the rack to play itself for hours with cool variations and glitches. Everyone here from Lugia to Jim to Garfield has been super awesome and helpful. I would have screwed up before and never considered things like Kinks or Links to use.

Hi!

I've been building my first rack this year and am trying to understand what makes sense and what does not in my current plans. Because I only have 12 of these modules, some of them here (eg. the Joranalogue and Hex modules) were less thought through than, say the second row that I really like and play with daily.

I've been super inspired by this video from Hainbach: and am trying to escape tracks layering and the groovebox-like kind of rack, that I don't find inspiring at all. So, I've been selling most of my early buys (sequencers and drum modules) and although percussion is still a big part of what I do, I'm much more happy with building the percs myself - I plan to use the R*S equalizer for these mainly, same with the boogie filter. I'm also quite inspired by east-coast synthesizing, like most of you, and I probably miss some of the required modules to get that.

Modules I have already:
- Pamela
- Branches
- Mult
- Just friends
- 1 mangrove
- cold mac
- quad VCA
- delay no more
- zadar
- bloom
- Takaab lpg
- diode chaos

Next modules I'm buying:
- Serge res EQ
- Boogie filter (or Borg?)
- Contour 1 (or Maths?)

Voilà :) So, what do you think? What should I rethink and what feels right already here?
Thanks for your time, Hugo

Really having fun with the new IME modules Kermit MK3 and Bionic Lester so deep and wild plus loving Intellijel Quadrax with Expander and Noise Engineering modules. A quick jam I came up with this evening:

The Hex VCA and Mixup is great combo with mutes for the mixer.

Yes @GarfieldModular, all live, though I patched it in advance, I'm not ready for live patching yet! I was mostly just controlling levels, sequencing chords, and using the ResEq to shift the focus and depth of the sound. It was fun, and practicing live is a good exercise I think, emphasizing a different approach to the synth which is always good. Anyway, glad you liked it and thanks for listening!

Hi Steve,

Wow, that's a nice and long ambient track! You did this live? Well that's fantastic, pity of the virus situation, it's about time to see concerts like this live! :-)

Thanks a lot for sharing this and kind regards, Garfield.

Hi Mowse,

Yeah, great jam session :-) That's what my evenings complete, a jam session from your "workshop" :-)

Thanks a lot for sharing this and kind regards, Garfield.

Very cool! Yeah I have a wave shaper already and drum type VCO so adding FM synthesis module to my setup would be perfect balance. Probably decide between Akemie castle and IME Hertz Donut MK3. I like the preset options and so forth in the Hertz Donut MK3 and it would match the orange knobs aesthetic of my other 2 IME modules but the coolness of just knobs no screens in the AC module and heritage of Yamaha FM chips is hot.

yes,
it is hard to find a video that shows this but there is one :

Yeah this looks awesome for FM synthesis along with IME Hertz Donut MK3. But need very large rack for these ginormous sized modules! Maybe when I get a new much larger case like a 12U setup that can hold 500HP of these beast sized modules then I will bite.

A friend asked me to do a live set at a venue in Columbus yesterday, streamed of course as they all are nowadays, so I put together a quick drone piece working through some Just Intonation and 12Tet chords and drones, and I think it turned out pretty good if you're into that sort of thing!

https://stevehand.bandcamp.com/album/live-sets

Made with the below, the MCO was a last minute addition but I wanted a third sound source to add a little extra texture and bass underneath everything, which I was pretty happy with.

@croute I have an AC and it's one of my favorite modules. That said I'm not familiar with the synths you listed here, so maybe you could link us some videos to compare against?

The Bastl stuff is quirky and an acquired taste. You either love it or you don't. The wood and aluminum panels are functionally the same. I had a wood panel Knit Rider and it was a little odd.
I've not used the CV Trinity, but I chose to sell my Bastl products and replace them with alternatives. Not sure that I would invest that amount of money in a CV Trinity, but let us know what you decide.
Have fun and good luck!

Hello
i am wondering if this module could sounds like a PSS 390 , or 380 or even a psr 36 ?
And especially could it sounds like the "spectrum" parameter makes those synths sounds?

Thank you

musically

I have a 7U x 94HP travel case with 3 voice + 3 drums. Size is surely enough to do something usable that can be beefed up with external synths, drums, etc. Looking at your setup I'm wondering if you have enough VCAs?

Hi Garfield,

Excellent, I have the new modules working and really enjoy how crazy the Noise Engineering Cursus Iteritas sounds especially when modulated by LFOs can get serious industrial sounds. It pairs well with the Kermit and Bionic Lester. Plus super easy to learn. On the other hand, IME modules like the Kermit demand time as they have tons of hidden features as does the Intellijel Quadrax with expander a take on the Buchla 281e function generator with self patching CV options, LFO and EG features galore. It shares a lot of the similar design so west coast based.

There's a local sale where I can get a CV Trinity for an okay price, not fantastic but enough to be interesting. I like that it seems to have good modulation options to do some wacky stuff, I just can't find a ton of info on it.

I'm most interested in the automation, though the rest of what it offers seems plenty useful, just don't know if it's worth almost $400 CAD

Additionally, I'm unsure if the aluminum panel version has any benefits over the original, only the original is available

I'd have to +1 for a larger case as well. Having done live techno back in the 1990s (without a DAW, I should note), one method that I found very workable with my Digisound/ARP 2600 combo that I was using at the time was to set up multiple parallel "instruments" within the modular architecture. New track? Just fade in another mixer channel and fade out the one I was on. While the hardware might be rather different here, the method is still quite solid, but it does take a bit bigger build to accommodate several separate audio paths...plus having all of these intersect at a proper stereo performance mixer (which I didn't have back then) is super-helpful.

Yeah, the Mother 32 on it's own seems to work just fine going from the 1/4" Line Out straight into the interface. Of course, the volume on the Mother has to be almost all the way down or else it's super loud when monitoring.

Will get some cables or adapters for when I expand.

Thanks for all the replies, much appreciated!

Hi Sacguy71,

How is the playing with the new modules getting along? Lots of fun? :-)

That's actually not a too bad idea to use the Elektron Analog Four being the (complex) sequencer. If the Ground Control is going to be disappointing (or never will be released), I might just do that. Thanks for the idea!

Mantis? I thought you wanted to get a (mega) monster case from Doepfer or MDLR? :-)

Kind regards and have a good weekend, Garfield.

Get a bigger case? Add in Noise Engineering BIA for drums and bass perhaps.

Make Noise Function is more attractive to me than the SSF Mini Slew.

-- Sammy3000

I guess if you know well how it works maths, and you need more or less the same in less hp... function is a natural choice.
I'm still learning Function, I don't know all its possibilities, but I discover a few of them, and it's amazing. Maybe in future I'll switch to maths, but in this moment function seems ok to me (in less hp).

I'm using Function, it's only one complex channel from maths, and you haven't got logic operations, but anyway I find so handy, and you have EOR, EOC, positive and negative outs: 2 gates out, 2 cv out in 8hp. The hang input (doesn't present on maths) has interesants utilities.
So in short, you could do the same thing with one complex channel of maths, and little more.
-- nokulture

Make Noise Function is more attractive to me than the SSF Mini Slew. I think my future Rack will look like this:

But I won't sell my Maths. Maybe I'll buy a second Intellijel Stealth Case with Joiner Plates when "Corona" is over and I can get back to a normal 40hour week. Maths is unique and will return later, but now it's time for some Rackspace :)

yeah - looks better to me

use one channel of batumi as a clock I guess - which will work fine

I suspect that by the time the second case appears, you will have a better idea of what you need - ie what you feel is missing from this case - but that's also part of the fun - discovery

enjoy your journey!

I don't use midi either - I use a kick sample (available from Make Noise) as a clock to stay in sync

Bump?