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This actually makes quite a bit of sense, and I'm a little surprised that no one's tinkered with no-input feedback paths all that much in Eurorack.
If you go back to one of the pioneers in this, namely David Lee Myers (ie: Arcane Device), his systems were largely built around matrix mixers tandemmed with delay lines and some other filters and timbral modifiers. This should be VERY easy to implement in Eurorack. Add some modulation, a bit of the typical Eurorack voodoo, stick it all in a Behringer cab, and I came up with:
Pretty cool...the left end is the modulation section, uses a Maths, Quadrax and eight free-run LFOs, plus a few mixing/modification modules to make that do a ton of interactive crossmodulation, plus output some VERY wild curves. You get six VCAs (switchable curve) after that for modulation and audio amplitude control as needed. The "beefy" part is in the center, where you'll find an 8 x 4 matrix mixer plus a pair of Pittsburgh Delay Networks, and there's also a touchpad-controlled switch for either audio or modulation. The right end (audio processing/output) contains eight VCFs, a really useful output processor (the T-racks...I have the standalone version, and it's VERY feedback-friendly), plus your submix from the four outputs of the matrix (you'd split these...and for that, I also added four buffered mults to make sure the audio levels stay up when splitting, if necessary). Then there's an Isolator for your isolated stereo outs plus your master output level.
Now that's a nice start-point...or if you like, a finished solution.
Man...that's got to be the most hideous URL in Interwebz history! But yeah...if you're willing to do an overnight trip, there's a BUNCH of stuff getting blown out in the Las Vegas area, probably due to the huge tourism downturn. The Siena was another desk that was in the running here until I found that irresistable FIVE.
I did get some new JBL 5 inch monitors with stands and they sound amazing for a low cost affordable studio speaker. Also have two new desks to assemble for my home studio. At least new house has lots of space for studio gear and no more gun shots or homeless all over the bloody place!
OK...well, now you'll need a few guns so that you can fire them off randomly to keep the ambiance right. Those JBLs should make excellent "check" monitors, but you'll want something flatter and with more low end for your mains and/or main mixdown monitors. Ran across the discount on these the other day...they'll be PERFECT: https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Gold8--tannoy-gold-8-8-inch-powered-studio-monitor That point-source driver provides a really clear stereo image...plus, I learned on some older/bigger Tannoys decades ago, and the mixes I did on those STILL stand up.
Whew such a relief. At least I can record pure modular now. I do need to get some acoustic treatment egg crate stuff to put on the walls to keep the massive echo effect from ruin my video recordings.
-- sacguy71
Don't go nuts with that stuff. You want SOME room in your room, instead of trying to suck up all the stray audio. One thing that works that you might consider would be hanging some "clouds" at various angles from the ceiling. By using different angles, what bounce the clouds might have will be misdirected, plus the space above them works nicely for absorbing low-mid to midrange sounds, and it kills the bounce from the largest "problem surface" most rooms have. Also, keep an eye out for bass buildup that'll necessitate adding some bass traps in a few 90-degree-angled corners.
Yeah, it is great having a ton of space and options now with no limits. The mixer in the video is a Mackie ProFX16v3 16-channel Mixer with USB and Effects. It is super awesome and I needed a much larger mixer to accomodate fellow musicians who visit and more gear. The level of control and FX options are superb in this affordable mixer. As my studio grows, larger mixers become essential equipment. The JBL 5 inch monitors are LOUD for a small speaker. I still need to assemble two studio desks to place more gear in the same area. At this point, I may also use another room or two for recording quiet mixing studio room as it is more enclosed and would lend itself perfect for sound treatment. Lots of egg crate sound proofing material to be purchased for sure to avoid the loud echo in the rooms.
Thanks again for your advice! And apologies to the OP for hijacking this thread :)
-- oldandintheway
Quite frankly I learned so much from the different answers that it really changed my approach. I hope this helped others as well that are just getting started. As an example, I am not a lot more into my Maths, Kinks, Links, and Shades modules as I've focused a lot more on modulation. The addition of a matrix mixer will probably blow my mind and allow me to just immerse myself in the complexity.
-- marcomixtle
I'm glad I was able to be a helpful nuisance at least ha.
I'm also getting intrigued with the prospect of a matrix mixer. I'm currently experimenting with using the Intellijel Tête-Tetrapad combo in voltages mode as an automated scene manager, so to speak, where I periodically bring in a new set of 8 CV levels to shift mod amounts, move through wave tables, etc. Combining this with a matrix mixer could be great fun and/or mentally push me over the edge, either of which would be entertaining.
Aye man! thanks for replying!
Initially the concept was to design a rack that could play in tandem with my Sv1b and Op1. Playing a Daw-less hip hop live set.
But after a few days of thinking I'm considering creating a rack with just effects and utilities. Is this what you mean by a 6u? or is that more like a traditional studio rack system?
A eurorack of effects and utilities could definitely could be a lot more powerful with a standalone sampler! Your right!
Thank you for your reply! If you know of anymore #reccomendations please let me know! I need that hip hop lo fi goodies!
much love!
Thanks again for your advice! And apologies to the OP for hijacking this thread :)
-- oldandintheway
Quite frankly I learned so much from the different answers that it really changed my approach. I hope this helped others as well that are just getting started. As an example, I am not a lot more into my Maths, Kinks, Links, and Shades modules as I've focused a lot more on modulation. The addition of a matrix mixer will probably blow my mind and allow me to just immerse myself in the complexity.
Doepfer A-185, Vmpe T43, NE Quantas Pax all can do the job. With only 2 voices smaller is probably better, but Odessa w/ expander could be very useful. Switches are inherently more performable but if you can CV transpositions that can also do the trick.
Martix mixers: Tesseract 8x8 could be nice. The WMD matrix is also super cool especially since you can sequence the stages. Other mixers get a little big for this size. I got a cheap passive on in a trade and that honestly does the job too. With a little muscle memory you'll be able to basically turn on and off modulation to set destinations or combinations of destinations.
Thanks a lot for the reply, lots of type of modules i would've never get my head into before hearing it now.
I feel like i need to try things out with the modulation modules, so i can fully commit to some type of sequencing within a rack, i had a BSP Pro until now, but you're right, their all do basically the same thing in the end, i'll cut some of them and find my way without this much redundacy in modulations.
Precision Adder seems interesting, you have some you recommend for playability/live use ?
Will definitely look into matrix mixers too, always saw them as a "big case" mixer somehow..
Veils is gonna be on my list too once i figured out what to ditch Voltage Block or Mimetic/scales
whenever someone recommends a shiny new expensive module - remember to look around and see what else there is that will do the same thing (or almost the same thing) for less money!
-- JimHowell1970
Sure, you might be right with that, but there is a huge difference between the lion and the doepfer 138m. The lion isn't more expensive without a reason. And for his use case the lion is suitable. The doepfer is not (or almost not).
-- MillionJT
@MillionJT - you may be right - I'm just a little skeptical - so I took a look at the spec for the lion (just the description here) and apart from the 'expensive pin matrix' (which is one of the 2 obvious reasons why lion is more expensive, the other being that it's built in Scotland and not China) and the black panel - I really don't see a lot of difference between the 2 - they're both matrix mixers at the end of the day...
it could be that the lion can add a lot of gain, but I don't see that in the specs - and if that's the case you could easily patch say +20db of gain in via Veils or something
so could you please explain why the lion is more suitable as a matrix mixer than the doepfer for no input mixing? or is it just differently suitable (ie the lion has this extra function that you would need another module for)
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
I was/am doing the techno groove box thing, so here are some notes/concerns...
You have lots of modulation but some of them appear kinda redundant when you take a closer look.
For sequenced modulation, you have three modules(kinda a lot for this size) and two of them are quantized and then a quantizer. I think its important to stay in key, but this is also techno so I think you could remove at least one stepped modulator and the quantizer, or if you really want it, find something that is smaller. Also, consider a small precision adder.
Look also for CV mixers, rectifiers, inverters, etc.... These will really allow you to capitalize on what you have and essential make all new modulations sources. Matrix mixer is also a good shout. Can combine gates, audio, and modulation really useful.
Steppy is fine, but I would check out the Shakamat Four Rooks for perfomablility.
Quad VCA -----> 2020 Veils.
I would also suggest looking into noise sources, Low pass gates, simple oscillators that can be fm'd. Can make for some really unique clamorous percussion.
whenever someone recommends a shiny new expensive module - remember to look around and see what else there is that will do the same thing (or almost the same thing) for less money!
-- JimHowell1970
Sure, you might be right with that, but there is a huge difference between the lion and the doepfer 138m. The lion isn't more expensive without a reason. And for his use case the lion is suitable. The doepfer is not (or almost not).
Been filling my diy 6u 62hp for 5 months now but i can't go on much longer ; i definitely need a bigger case asap
I've been assembling a new rack for a few weeks, here's a sketch of it
I wish i could go a little bigger but i really want to keep it portable and quite light. All the drums are external (TR-8 for now but Octatrack in a month), so the focus is to have a fun 2 voice live playing techno instrument that will be routed to Octatrack for effects and sampling for some tunes maybe, once i get the hang of the Octatrack.
As i said i'm relatively new to this world, coming from Volcas some years ago, to Elektron Digitakt, Minilogue XD, those types of kinda immediate instrument, so i still have this kind of dream of building a more personal and immediate """groovebox""" feel in Eurorack.
So for people playing live on a small rig like this, techno players would be even more helpful, is this making sense to you ?
the instruo lion is a very expensive version of a matrix mixer - there are others that will do the same (less the pegs - that in my case I would loose) for less money - Doepfer do a good one (one of the most ergonomic) and so do AISynthesis
whenever someone recommends a shiny new expensive module - remember to look around and see what else there is that will do the same thing (or almost the same thing) for less money!
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
Hi Guys, many thanks for the reply, I really appreciate the time taken. To answer what I wish to do, my influences are very much Tangerine Dream, Tomita, Jarre, Gong, Hawkwind, so while I do like techno, it's not the main intent!
Lugia, I'm blown away by what you've done - lots more research for me to do! that PWRchekr is a new one on me and looks to be compulsory :) And yes, 2 x 104 was the aim for an initial case.
I've read about the no-input approach a while ago but never tried it. But if you searching for Modules who are producing a lot of noise, then take a look at the endorphine Milky Way and the Squawk Dirty. They are notorious for being noisy.
To farkas point. The Bastl Dark Matter does weird stuff and creates feedback loops, but i think it needs an audio source. I guess that is not what you want to do.
One Module who could be interesting is the Instruo Lion.
Sorry if this sounds newbie-ish, but I was wondering if the idea of no input mixing can be exported in Eurorack. Something like having a matrix mixer patched into itself, or just a chain of several VCAs going into each other, or some multiples passing feedback loops between themselves. I love the idea of no input mixing, I'm imagining what sort of coolness would arise by CVing it with control modules or other stuff.
I have a Veils, a Bastl ABC and a Gargoyle Delay and I get some squarewave-like feedback tones if I cross-patch those two, but maybe there are some other modules which have more ground hum that could serve a feedback-oriented approach. Maybe DYIing them would be the answer? Or maybe this just isn't the format for this kind of explorations and I just should go with a regular no input mixer (which would sadden me, alas). If anyone has more information it would be lovely to expand on this idea.
Hi Tom,
working on an hiphop orientated live case myself..
don't mind me asking why go this route instead of getting a MPC for instance?
I am not seeing the extra things what this setup will bring you.
Not a lot of modulation options and besides the per4mer (that I love) not a lot of playability either..
My humble 5cts: get a 6u with some utilities, filter, delay/reverb thingy.. makes is all more versatile plus more fun to play around with in an accessible way.
Got myself a Feedback Modules Squeeze (4hp compressor) to glue the samples together a bit #recommendation
Maybe i'm totally wrong here, but what is exactly the "difference" between difference and the result of a subtraction? I'm pretty sure the result of a subtraction is called difference.
To this point...
CV1 = 3V, CV2 = 5V, Subtraction = -2V, invert that to get my 2V
I think i would just switch the two voltages, if that is possible in your use case.
CV1 = 5V, CV2 = 3V, Subtraction = 2V
I mean it's always good to know about alternatives, but Maths does all of this without a problem. I wouldn't even bother to use an inverter. A Full-Wave Rectifier makes more sense imho. MI Kinks has one.
This isn't a finished product by any means, just a rough draft
A few nights ago, I was searching for the perfect kick in my sample library, and all of them seemed very generic. So I opened up VCV Rack, and during my fiddling around, I made a kick drum. I was using a sub oscillator, the Erica Synths wavetable VCO, a few envelopes for pitch and wave shaping modulation, some VCAs, and a filter... not bad. I made a pretty solid punchy kick. I hit record and then...
The result ended up with me recording over 1,000 different Kick Drums in one night in Ableton Live!
Doing the math, 4 kicks per bar X 16 bar wav files X 20 different wav files recorded = 1,280 kick drums (TOO MANY FUCKING KICK DRUMS) all with their own transients and lengths so that they're all different from one another. And it wasn't even hard! It took me an hour at the most! Recording, going in and changing a few parameters around, and hitting record again. It was that simple.
So I thought to myself "What if I had a skiff with the soul purpose of recording my own drum sounds?"
I know what your thinking, " Corban, why waste time and money to make a separate skiff just for drum synthesizing when you can have a full case filled with more options and modules that are drum sounds on their own, let alone, do it on your computer like you did in one night?"
The answer is simple: Variety of options, an analog sound, originality, and having a sense of control in my sound.
Allow me to explain...
There's a few things that you wanna modulate when synthesizing a drum.
In this example, lets say I'm making a kick drum.
The Click - A VCO like the Erica Synths Wavetable is perfect for creating those beginning transients in a drum hit that sound organic whether it be a kick, a snare, a hat, or a tom. And with a VERY subtle attack and decay modulation, its the perfect replacement for a standard noise generator for making those clicking transients. It has so many options that you can dial in between using a VCA, or just by itself. So that as the beginning shape of your drum can give you almost unlimited options for how your drum will sound in the sum of it all.
The Punch - The punch (thats what I call it) in a kick drum is the fast pitch modulation of the sine/triangle wave, and like the click, the punch is modulated with a subtle attack/decay ratio to the v/oct. It starts from relatively high, and drops fast to a very low frequency. That's how you get that solid bassy "oof" out of a kick drum. Especially when you throw it through a filter with some drive and tune it right. I chose the STO by Make Noise as that body, and the Polaris as my filter to get rid of some of the higher frequencies I might not need.
The Shape - the shape of your drum can be anywhere from very short and punchy to very long and driven. Having the option to shape your drum in anyway you want seemed very interesting to me. Especially since I like to make house music. The shape of my kick drum needs to fit my track and compliment the rest of the sounds without being too overbearing. I like it somewhere in between short and snappy and long and driven, as if it acts almost as a metronome, while still giving it that driving force to move my body and bob my head. Too long, and it drowns out the sounds. Too short and you cant feel it. I like to make it just right. Just long enough for that thump to hit me and let me know its there while also disappearing as fast as it came.
Having all this control, and all these options plus an analog sound, you don't get that with samples.
You get it with this skiff.
And you can create MANY different percussive sounds. The possibilities are almost endless. I guarantee you will come out with something different EVERY TIME.
You could maybe make something like it, or something that sounds close, but never again can you make that exact same one shot sample that is 100% you. Never in a million years. And that's what's so great about it. Having ONE specific instrument with ONE specific job that can make so many different variations of ONE sound, its nuts.
And, honestly, who the hell has a skiff where its soul purpose is to make hard hitting Kick drums? Nobody. That's who. So... that's why I'm going to do it.
Dammit...this is making me want to add that "Maths skiff" to the sandbox...pair of Maths + a MISO to feed ALL of the patchables here.
-- Lugia
Yep, I think two Maths would be great - although that would be nearly half my rack! :)
Hi ModLifeCrises,
Wow, what a sound you got there! Weird and beautiful at the same time, well done! :-)
Thank you very much for this demo and kind regards, Garfield.
-- GarfieldModular
Thanks. I surprised myself with the sound, especially the 'cuckoo' which just sort of emerged from nowhere. I think the cuckoo was Maths end of cycle into FM input of Maths, creating a cuck-ooo two note phrase. Crazy! :)
Yes the module itself is the same. There were a few revisions of the module that will be displayed on the rear PCB, but the differences are quite minor. For example, the first run would close the VCA at the FOLD output if the FOLD knob was all the way down.
They can all be updated to the latest firmware of 2.04.
My new 16 channel Mackie mixer and JBL monitors arrived and had fun messing about today in new studio space.
I may use another part of the house eventually but these areas are great for folks to come over and jam and with the 16 channel mixer can easily accomodate friends with modular synths. A quick demo
Now it is not a Mozart performance just mess around try the various presets and FX from the new Mackie mixer and JBL monitors. Amazing how loud 5 inch studio monitors can sound!
you could set the bar so low for good that it is almost impossible to be so bad as to warrant not being good enough so get a new module - I forgot to take the trash out - I'm not good enough to deserve a module - I emptied the moldy cheese from the fridge - I am good enough to get the module I want/need etc etc etc> -- JimHowell1970
First off, I am a complete beginner in building custom Euro rack :).
I'm trying to build a live Eurorack hip hop rig. This will be mostly centred around sampling through the bitbox (or like sampler). I'll talk you through the signal flow. I want samples to be triggered by the Hermod sampler. The 8 tracks of the Hermod will trigger channels on the bit box. I also have an OP-1 which will be USB hosted by the hermod to send additional midi info. The 4 outputs of the bit box can be sent to either the effects (ripples or per4mer) or send to the mixer which will then sum the output.
I also have an Sv-1 black box. I will send this synth midi sequences from the hermod as a synth source and use the 3 SV-1b LFOS as modulation sources.
I am thinking of using the Doepfer A-100 LC3 Low Cost Case - 3U as my case. This will give me 4HP left to add an additional mixer or LFO.
Any thoughts on my mock up Eurorack setup? Am I missing something?
I read somewhere that the wave folder behaves differently (it doesn't cut out the audio completely, when fully CCW), on the newer model, or something like that. Anyone care to clarify this?
Anyone using a korg sq64 with cv/gate?
I am noticing a strange noise on the line when i plug the pitch/gate.
The noise disappears if i enter the control mode on the sq64.
If any of you is using that sequencer i would like to know if you are having the same issue (or potentially know why this is happening)
Thanks in advance,
Ciao
Matteo
The only sound i can still hear is the oscillator when i turn up the vca initial level.
If the initial vca level is turned off (or turned up until i can hear the oscillator) i can't get any sounds of it it via external sources.
Is there something broken?
Any ideas?
Thanks a lot in advance,
Regards
Matteo
Thank you very much for the interesting demo. Gives me a good appetite for the Morphagene (again) :-)
Kind regards, Garfield.
-- GarfieldModular
Hello to you too :). Thanks. I love the Morphagene. It always surprises me. Some days I can't get anything from it. Other days I switch it on, wiggle a bit and 'hey presto!' find something I really like. I think it's got built-in random... :)
Farkas awesome rack.and thank you for suggestions for interactive controller modules in my thread.
i am thinking about selling my mantis case,as i just got a bigger case
-- Broken-Form
Thanks @Broken-Form. I've had some fun making generative patches, but the interactive method is so much more attractive to me. Let us know which control modules you add to your rack. What kind of case did you decide to upgrade to?
-- farkas
i will,got alot of modules to check,i upgraded to acustom 13U travel case
The Mystic Circuits Ana should do the job, but I want to see if I can solve it with my existing modules. I think what I can do is use Maths subtraction, and then invert negative results. So:
CV1 = 2V, CV2= 1V, Subtraction = 1V
CV1 = 3V, CV2 = 5V, Subtraction = -2V, invert that to get my 2V
FYI, I want to use this with a Theremin. I don't play well enough to play in tune with it but I do not want to just quantize the output either, may as well play keyboard then. So the idea is split the CV out, quantize 1 side of the split and compare that to the unquantized signal. The difference is then used to drive something else. Could be a modulation depth of sorts: hit exactly the right CV on the Theremin, you get the 'pure' note/tone. The more you drift away from the correct pitch the greater the voltage difference, the greater the modulation depth. Until you are far enough away from the quantized pitch to hit another note and then the unquantized voltage is compared to that again.
This will lead to some odd results as most scales will not have equidistant 'gaps' in CVs but the effect could be nice. And hide that I cannot play Theremin to save my life.
I'm a bit surprised this 'get the difference' function is not more common, I think you can use it for various interesting purposes.
Hi Joystick. Even with the new version, you are missing a considerable amount of functions to make this an enjoyable instrument. You don't seem to have a mixer or VCAs included in the new rack... Those are going to be pretty important. Part of the joy of techno is adding and removing pieces, fading sounds in and out. How will you do that in this rack?
If you really want to include all of these large modules, you are going to need to add a third row. You could probably fit a good techno starter rack in 2x84hp, but not with the modules you have chosen. Don't get me wrong, these are all cool, but you need some extra pieces.
You would be wise to listen to Lugia's concerns here. I think you would be frustrated instantly with this configuration.
Have fun and good luck!
Edit* Oops... My mistake, I overlooked the Joranalogue VCA thing.
Because my attention was brought to this post: a reminder that there are far better forums to discuss economic systems and their sexual preferences than MG.
