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I don’t see the issue. It’s only about categorizing sub-fora, right? It hardly makes a difference at all.
We’re not discussing changes to MG’s organizational menus, correct? Can someone link me to what is being discussed? I don’t hang here often (I get enough on MW) but use Der Grid a lot. I couldn’t find a Serge-focused sub-forum.

There’s no true Euro voltage standard and all of that stuff is lumped together in one sub-forum.

EDITED Oct 9th 2021, 07:29

Exactly I started with a modest Doepfer A100 Basic system 6u setup and quickly grew to a near full 12u Doepfer monster base and case plus a full MDLR 12u case with dozens of modules a year later. I’ve come now to a good stopping point to focus on my setup and will only buy a module on rare occasions now. Part is to allow myself to master what I have and part is due to being a new home owner with mortgage payments, property taxes and home repairs. Still all good since my studio space is larger and no sound limits.

I don't plan on expanding forever...
-- JimHowell1970

Hm. Yeah. Right. We all know you're just as hooked as the rest of us.

+1, Jim. The Mutable stuff seems to me to fit into that "no-coast" zone...you can use it for typical subtractive synthesis, then in the next patch you can wander off into West Coast FM craziness. Control modules range from perfectly straightforward to pretty bonkers. Hands down, Mutable Instruments modules are going to be viewed as "classics" in future decades.

Actually, this seems like a potential problem. Even though they're both 4U format, Buchla and Serge are NOT ALIKE. They have different methods of powering, the Serge uses a single "plane" of control and audio signals while the Buchlas have their audio and control paths separated and with rather different levels (save for the Eurorack versions, according to Tiptop), and they don't exactly have the same "space unit" size. The issue is sort of similar to the already-resolved 5U systems, where the MOTM format and the "MU" format have different widths even though they're similar, or how Eurorack and FracRack can talk to each other (as a rule) while they're not the same height and same power requirement, ergo no Frac modules in a Euro cab...although older Paia 2700 and 4700 series modules ALSO use the same split plane as Buchlas.

This is actually a problem that's about as old as modular synthesizers themselves. Over the years, there's been a LOT of different module formats...E-Mu had one, Wavemakers had one, then there's the ARP 2500 which requires the matrix switches along with the modules, and that list goes on and on and ON. Plus, loads of these synths would NOT play nice with each other. For example, you have EML's patchable systems, they take 1/4" patchcords, everything seems right...until you plug in a pitch CV and discover that wonderful EML CV standard of 1.2V/8va. If you don't like microtonality, don't DO THAT.

I would love more options for filtering out modules from the search results.
-- jgb

Actually, that seems like a fairly good idea...perhaps these could be configured as filters within the user settings...? They'd be a total mess to implement in the selection menus, but if you know what you DON'T want ahead of time, having them as user settings seems like something relatively basic and simple to implement.

"Simple to implement" according to someone who uses test gear side-by-side with the latest revision of Ableton, that is!

The O&C isn't that menu-divey. Once you've selected a mode of operation, everything for that mode is on one page. The length of the menu might expand if you select certain features (like using a ADSR envelope rathe than a gate). But it's fairly simple to use.

neither are turing machines or distings

turing machine is pretty simple generate a string of random stepped voltages that are loopable - you almost always want a quantizer after it if you want 'musical'

disting is also quite simple - there's just a lot of it - it's just select algorithm and the knobs and i/o change but nto that much and it's pretty easy to get your head around especially if you set up favourites (a text file on an sd card) so that you are not trying every mode and having to read the manual all the time

As far as the turing machine, having a module that can send control voltage (like a Befaco Attenuverter or an Intellijel Quadratt) are nice for having better real time control of the Turing settings.

-- Ronin1973

@Ronin1973 hnmm - something wrong here did you mean scale and not send?

-- JimHowell1970

No. Check out this Voltage Control Lab tutorial... around the 2:15 mark explaining what I mean. In the video, they use Maths channels 2 and 3 as real time controls. Of course you can use any CV source, automated or manual.

I've got rings, plaits, both tides, clouds, streams, stages, branches, links, kinks, Marbles, an original veils, 2 diy veils, 3 diy shades, 2 diy shelves, 2 diy ripples and a few more diy ones in the backlog including elements, frames and a second branches

they are incredibly versatile modules - I've had everything from ambient bells, through heavy metal guitars, to organs from Rings alone - it's really quite impressive what you can do with them - and Emilie is fantastic - excellent customer support!!!

... hmm, okay, so maybe I just flat don't understand Disting/O&C modules yet. I'll take a closer look.

The description of Turing as "string of random stepped, and loopable" makes a lot of sense.

Thanks!

The O&C isn't that menu-divey. Once you've selected a mode of operation, everything for that mode is on one page. The length of the menu might expand if you select certain features (like using a ADSR envelope rathe than a gate). But it's fairly simple to use.

neither are turing machines or distings

turing machine is pretty simple generate a string of random stepped voltages that are loopable - you almost always want a quantizer after it if you want 'musical'

disting is also quite simple - there's just a lot of it - it's just select algorithm and the knobs and i/o change but nto that much and it's pretty easy to get your head around especially if you set up favourites (a text file on an sd card) so that you are not trying every mode and having to read the manual all the time

As far as the turing machine, having a module that can send control voltage (like a Befaco Attenuverter or an Intellijel Quadratt) are nice for having better real time control of the Turing settings.

-- Ronin1973

@Ronin1973 hnmm - something wrong here did you mean scale and not send?

@Ronin1973 that's a good suggestion. I've stayed away from Turing Machine type models mainly because I don't understand them, either as a module, or in terms of potential musical use cases.

O&C comes up very recommended over and over. I've stayed away from that one and Distings because multi-use, menu-divey, extremely deep modules with big manuals are not my "cup of tea" right now. Having gotten into Eurorack in the last 12 months and bought a lot of gear, I still have much to wrap my mind and ears around with the more "basic" modules I own.

I'll need to flag the Turing types, along with O&C and Distings as "maybe future" modules for me to consider going forward, maybe for deep winter here in Minnesota, when an afternoon spent with a manual and a single module is a more agreeable idea.
-- nickgreenberg

The O&C isn't that menu-divey. Once you've selected a mode of operation, everything for that mode is on one page. The length of the menu might expand if you select certain features (like using a ADSR envelope rathe than a gate). But it's fairly simple to use.

As far as the turing machine, having a module that can send control voltage (like a Befaco Attenuverter or an Intellijel Quadratt) are nice for having better real time control of the Turing settings.

@Ronin1973 that's a good suggestion. I've stayed away from Turing Machine type models mainly because I don't understand them, either as modules or in terms of potential musical use cases.

O&C comes up very recommended over and over. I've stayed away from that one and Distings because multi-use, menu-divey, extremely deep modules with big manuals are not my "cup of tea" right now. Having gotten into Eurorack in the last 12 months and bought a lot of gear, I still have much to wrap my mind and ears around with the more "basic" modules I own.

I'll need to flag the Turing types, along with O&C and Distings as "maybe future" modules for me to consider going forward, maybe for deep winter here in Minnesota, when an afternoon spent with a manual and a single module is a more agreeable idea.

EDITED Oct 8th 2021, 19:31

I was wondering something similar and, along the way, found this nice perhaps more conventional synthy track (only using Plaits):

I'm mulling over using Plaits in my first eurorack build (also with Veils) since it's such a versatile little bugger it seems. I'd eventually like some regular 'ole VCOs too but since I have some integrated analog synths, my thought was I can sort of use their outputs as VCOs for now and Plaits (and Braids for that matter) just seem so darn useful.

Skimmed again... have you thought of using a Turing Machine? There are a few dedicated Turing modules as well as modules with this mode like Ornament & Crimes. I believe O&C can also quantize outputs making the randomness more musical.

Hi Folks! I haven't been on the site too much recently, but I am looking forward to listening to all the new tracks posted. I've been focusing on learning recently purchased modules (Bloom, Chord v2, and the mighty Doepfer A-151 Sequential Switch), as well as trying new production techniques. I really wanted to take a stab at long form ambient, so I submit this example. It's looooong, but that was the point. It's another installment of my Star Trek dialog manglings. Drop it on in the background or throw on some headphones and zone out. Hope you like it as much as I do. Cheers!

=eabc002fc76c41e3aaaf5099fc05dac3

The core foundation for this is a patch I developed on the M32/Subharmonicon. I then layered on a load of other stuff from the modular and again used Pigments 3 to do the granular treatment on the voice. So much of the work on this version was all about removing stuff I initially layered on, to reduce density and have some ebbing/flowing of sections. It was a lot of fun to work on and I definitely want to do more.

Thanks Kent. I’ve swapped around some patch cables so there are now two mixes on bandcamp.
-- liquidcolor

Sweet!

Will check it out later

Thanks Kent. I’ve swapped around some patch cables so there are now two mixes on bandcamp.

I have 2x Plaits, Warps and Beads. They are polished and professional. Excellently engineered and sound fantastic. A cut above nearly all other manufacturers. I don’t do ambient.

Whatever your userbase is used to, honestly.

One thing to keep in mind is that Buchla is now 3U and 4U.

EDITED Oct 8th 2021, 15:17

Posted it on Muffs too because there is a bit more attention. Well, people find it more important to request other features.
For technical reason it would be hard to merge Buchla to 4U.
You think it would be o.k. to have two universes Buchla AND 4U?

I know this question might be really general, but how would you define the mutable instruments sound? Most of the demos I see seem to focus a lot on ambient. Just want to hear your thoughts!

It's a good reminder too that I haven't at all been considering the price of patch cables (namely due to needing more than I thought I would) ;)
-- m00dawg

yeah, I know the feeling - I'm at about 300 or so and probably need more soon!

-- JimHowell1970

Honestly, once you get on up into the hundreds of patch cords, it starts to make more sense to just get a spool of Belden 8441 (three conductor with foil shielding) and a pile of Switchcraft 250s, then whip out the ol' soldering iron. That way, you can do patchcords of whatever length you need. True, it's tedious AF, but you get a superior patch cord (that foil makes a definite difference in keeping crap off of your signals) AND you pump up your soldering game. Same trick applies for 3.5mm cords as well, although you might be better going with Belden 9396 for those and, of course, the right 3.5mm connector...in this case, I recommend CUI Devices MP-3502s for the plugs.

-- Lugia

I would if i thought I'd need a ton more - but I probably don't, maybe another 50 or so will keep me going for ever... and not all at once - maybe 20 more this year and some more next year...

I don't plan on expanding forever - maybe 3-4 modules (plus some diy as needed) this year and some of that tiptop/buchla (and maybe a couple of video modules) next year - and I'll probably be near as damn it done... maybe some more DIY modules and anything that seriously catches my eyes or ears - but tbh, not a lot really does... thankfully!

I bought a Multiple dual channels @phmodular
(https://www.modulargrid.net/e/ph-modular-multiple-dual-channels-by)
Very well made module ! Recommended !
Merci Christian !

EDITED Oct 8th 2021, 12:53

Over at MW, we've been going through the same discussion. Nobody has been happy with anything (are they ever?) so, good luck with it.

I think that calling it 4U is fine. People WILL adapt and understand but not without complaining first.

I have a request to rename the Serge universe to 4U because there are some other manufacturers that also build modules in that format.
I wonder if that will be more confusing because Buchla is also 4U(?) but with different width/voltages.
What's the best way to deal with that?
I need some opinions here: is the current universe naming o.k. or should it be changed?
And what's with the other formats (Eurorack, Buchla, Frac, Modcan A, MOTM, MU, Serge)?

That was grand! Lovely to witness on the modular.

It depends upon a number of factors. The two with the most influence upon signal integrity would be the input impedances of the connected inputs and if the receiving devices use a comparator on the input and where that threshold is.

So, no, there is no universal formula. You'd need to know all of the variables. However, you can just patch 'em and use a buffered mult if needed.

I stopped working on this about a 2 weeks ago as I focused upon rewiring some of the studio and fixing some broken things. I'm returning to it and repatched it in order to determine the state of things. Almost ready to be structured. Let me know what you think.

Thank you a lot !

Yes ER-301 is a beast and I have two other videos already done :)

I would love more options for filtering out modules from the search results.
- Blank panels
- Clones
- Certain brands

This would really improve my searching! I do not want to have to wade through large amounts of modules that I already know that I am not interested in to be able to find the ones that interest me.

Heya,

would love it if messages in the inbox could be grouped by thread

Keep up the good work!

I love the beach shot.

Wow!

Oh, wow! You went to Superbooth? Did you get a chance to hear the new TBD module? This will be the first deep sort of module for AE. While I prefer immediacy, having one TBD would free up a lot of space in one's rack.

Yes, the AE is quite compact. It's half the size of Metric 4U, i.e., 10 mm tall modules as opposed to 20 mm. It's hard to believe how much synth you get for the money without sacrificing sound.

I understand about wanting other things. I'm trying to save for a bicycle, but Robert keeps coming out with other modules! Makes it hard to save, lol!

I'd like to see if I can figure out Kraftwerk's cover album among other things.
-- m00dawg

I gotcha here...Ralf's rig consists of a Minimoog and a Farfisa Professional Piano, plus some small instruments. Florian's, however, is much more complicated...

There's two mixers in front of him, and they appear to be early Barth mixers. I say that because these bear a strong resemblance to Can's pre-MCI mixing console, which I know is a custom Barth. Below the right mixer, the two big cases appear to be either Echolette or Dynacord power amps. The stack to his right has an oscilloscope, a graphic EQ (maybe Dynacord?), a Dynacord Echocord Super tape delay, and I suspect that the bottom device is their early vocoder. His mic is a Shure 55 (or a copy), then he has a bass flute, alto flute, an A flute, a C flute, and a piccolo, plus an 8-string lap steel.

And yes, that's an early shot of the inside of their Klingklang Studio in Dusseldorf. It's also a very good bet that there's more widgetry off-camera.

EDITED Oct 8th 2021, 02:13

It's a good reminder too that I haven't at all been considering the price of patch cables (namely due to needing more than I thought I would) ;)
-- m00dawg

yeah, I know the feeling - I'm at about 300 or so and probably need more soon!

-- JimHowell1970

Honestly, once you get on up into the hundreds of patch cords, it starts to make more sense to just get a spool of Belden 8441 (three conductor with foil shielding) and a pile of Switchcraft 250s, then whip out the ol' soldering iron. That way, you can do patchcords of whatever length you need. True, it's tedious AF, but you get a superior patch cord (that foil makes a definite difference in keeping crap off of your signals) AND you pump up your soldering game. Same trick applies for 3.5mm cords as well, although you might be better going with Belden 9396 for those and, of course, the right 3.5mm connector...in this case, I recommend CUI Devices MP-3502s for the plugs.

EDITED Oct 8th 2021, 01:56

@Lugia About that Digisound 80, did you build the whole thing ? From EMM articles ? I've only heard rumors and short videos, but I hear the filter on it is extra creamy...

-- toodee

No, I actually don't know who did the module builds...but I DO know that the cab, power system, and touch-ups on the modules were done by no less than the late, great Kevin Lightner, the Synthfool himself.

The Digisound here has a few different filters...it has a pair of state-variables, a pair of LPFs, a Moog ladder LPF clone, and the Dual Resonant Filter, which is something like the usual resonator-type filter albeit with some extra tricks to make the module do more than one would suspect. And everything there except the ladder LPF is actually CEM chip based...along with most everything else in it. So not only is it pretty well-equipped, it's very reliable in terms of programming...you can be assured that your twiddling-around will have the same result over and over again.

And actually, some of the Digisound modules have been reworked for Eurorack. Check out both Wavefonix and Pharmasonic for two interesting takes on the old Digisound 80 modules.

Hi Toodee,

Oh yes, sorry, I was in a rush when I posted it. I have to do this by heart because I just recently removed this patch from my system, it was rather simple so hopefully with my remarks here you can rebuild that? Let me know!

So the Plaits was set to the third red-selected-sound counting from the top. All of them were set to full right (at about 5 pm) with the exception of the Morph knob that one was set at about 1:30 pm, that was the most difficult setting from this patch by the way, it took me a bit of time and adjustment of that Morph knob to get it perfect.

I didn't modulate much here, the only thing I did was taking a reversed-saw based LFO, set it slowly and used that as input to the 1V/oct on the Plaits. Then I used a very mild delay in-rack module (ACL - Dual Delay) but I think you can skip that if you don't have that and if I remember well, that was it (not 100% sure). Then outside the modular system I added a medium-low till medium tape delay using the Grand Canyon from Electro-Harmonix (no ping-pong for the thunder, for those other sounds at a certain point I activated the ping-pong delay effect) and some medium reverb I added with the Source Audio - Ventris Dual Reverb, using for A the plate reverb and for B the swell reverb (to make the thunder stronger and the thunder effect more emphasised). Most of the knobs were set around 1 pm on that Ventris (time & pre-delay a bit less if I remember well).

I am not 100% sure but I don't think I used a filter for this patch.

That's it I think. Let me know if you are able to reproduce it. Kind regards, Garfield.

Hi Funbun,

Oh that's nice! A nice long track (the Major Blues) that offers almost everything, very nice balanced track I feel, beautifully played! You make me think of buying an AE modular system, especially after talked with the AE modular guys at Superbooth, they almost convinced me :-) It's just that I still want so many other things otherwise I would go straight away for an AE modular system as a kind of travel case, it's so small yet the modules don't need much space so you end up with a semi-small case but yet a large system :-)

Thank you very much for sharing this with us and kind regards, Garfield.

yeah, I know the feeling - I'm at about 300 or so and probably need more soon!

Looks at John's modular racks n ModularGrid Hmm yep 300 seems about right haha

Hi Yunyun,

Oh this is a lovely track, very subtle, quite impressive, oh man, can you please make more of this? :-)

Beautifully done video too by the way! It's nice to see you at work and the focus on the modules makes you want to buy it ;-)

Thanks a lot for sharing this with us and kind regards, Garfield.

Thanks Jim!

No problem

It's a good reminder too that I haven't at all been considering the price of patch cables (namely due to needing more than I thought I would) ;)
-- m00dawg

yeah, I know the feeling - I'm at about 300 or so and probably need more soon!

EDITED Oct 8th 2021, 00:07

Maths would be another that you could potentially do a lot with your Minibrute as well (and has a pretty good learning curve to it as well so getting a head start on learning it is not a bad idea)...when you get Maths, do a search for "Make Noise Maths V2 Illustrated supplement" and bookmark that sucker.

Also, not to complicate things, but ornament and crime has an optional firmware called Hemispheres (which I installed) that essentially allows you to split the module in half and support two simultaneous applets with different functions at the same time. It does overwrite the original firmware which you can easily reinstall but you might want to take a look at what it offers here: https://github.com/Chysn/O_C-HemisphereSuite/wiki versus the apps that are included on the original firmware here: https://ornament-and-cri.me/

-- jb61264

I've been excited for the Maths ever since I started looking into modular. Seems like a beast, and definitely hoping it plays nicely with the different sequencers on the MB 2s. I'll check out Hemisphere, as well. I'm loving all these rabbit-holes. Thanks!

All of them.

-- Ronin1973

Hah, if only!
Thanks for the info!

Thanks Jim!

I'm leaning towards the Doepfer I think yeah. Their switchmode/linear hybrid PSU is interesting too. I don't have the knowledge to say better or worse than a fully modern switcher (I use a 5V switching regulator for my custom MB6582 power supply and doesn't seem any worse) but is an interesting approach. Moreso I like the wood - even just unstained, though if I got one I'd probably stain it to match my shelves.

Maths. Oh boy! Yeah that gives me a ton to think about and work through. It's a lot to take in, but I never thought about asymmetric LFOs until I started working my way through that PDF (and some videos which helped kinda fit the theory into the end sound). It's quite a beast and yeah turns some of these concepts on their head.

Before I really get into that, first things first, I'll continue messing about with VCAs in VRV. I'd like to see if I can figure out Kraftwerk's cover album among other things. It's a good reminder too that I haven't at all been considering the price of patch cables (namely due to needing more than I thought I would) ;)

is there a particular module of the above that I should make sure to get first, or early in the process?
-- HGsynth

All of them.

But I would start with Pamela's New Workout and Ornaments and Crime. You're at about the $500 mark with purchasing those two. I would get them to familiarize myself with their operations. You should be able to use them with your MiniBrute and Model D. Those two modules can do quite a bit even though they aren't on the "sexy" list

-- Ronin1973

Maths would be another that you could potentially do a lot with your Minibrute as well (and has a pretty good learning curve to it as well so getting a head start on learning it is not a bad idea)...when you get Maths, do a search for "Make Noise Maths V2 Illustrated supplement" and bookmark that sucker.

Also, not to complicate things, but ornament and crime has an optional firmware called Hemispheres (which I installed) that essentially allows you to split the module in half and support two simultaneous applets with different functions at the same time. It does overwrite the original firmware which you can easily reinstall but you might want to take a look at what it offers here: https://github.com/Chysn/O_C-HemisphereSuite/wiki versus the apps that are included on the original firmware here: https://ornament-and-cri.me/

is there a particular module of the above that I should make sure to get first, or early in the process?
-- HGsynth

All of them.

But I would start with Pamela's New Workout and Ornaments and Crime. You're at about the $500 mark with purchasing those two. I would get them to familiarize myself with their operations. You should be able to use them with your MiniBrute and Model D. Those two modules can do quite a bit even though they aren't on the "sexy" list.

The big problem here is that, if this is supposed to be a generative system, it's a little "tight". I was able to add enough modulators and pick-offs to help with that, though. But this would really turn out better if I didn't have the Rackbrute constraint to work against. That's really the big stumbling block here; even putting the build into something slightly larger, like a Mantis, would give more working room to go with some larger/more ergonomic modules plus offer more room in general for additional functions. But for now, this is pretty serviceable.
-- Lugia

Wow! Thanks so much, I really appreciate you taking the time to give feedback. This system looks cool, the Ornaments and Crime in particular seems amazing. I'll look into the Mantis case, as well. Out of curiosity, since I will be buying modules one by one over time, is there a particular module of the above that I should make sure to get first, or early in the process?

Hello everybody my latest video is online. Main voice is Just Friends controlled with Ansible running Earthsea on I2C.

one of mine used to have - "this half-assed excuse for a case contains electronics designed to destroy elitist control mechanisms" written on it in sharpie! it was a piece of skirting board sawn into 4 and held together by modules and blind panels (hence the half-assed) - the wood has been recycled into one of my current cases, cut down to size and the text on the inside... now only 3/4-assed as it has proper rails and a back, but is still pretty much unfinished skirting board at heart!