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I have loved using MG; thank you for building it!

I have three things I'd find really useful:

1. I really enjoy using racks to build/plan my "wishlist" of modules that I'd like to buy and figure out where to put the new ones... so some of the modules in my rack I own already (and they're in my Collection), but others I don't yet own. It'd be amazing to be able to dim them (e.g. put a 50% opacity solid black/white div over the image) as "placeholders". That way I can see where I'd like to put the modules I haven't bought yet, and at a glance tell which I have and which I don't have. A small add-on would be to show two total cost numbers for the rack: total, and total to buy (wishlist, or things not in my Collection). A toggle in the rack settings ("Dim things not in my collection") would let people opt-in to this display mode. I'd guess this could be based on the "in Collection" boolean/flag for each module.

2. The total-rack power values are great, but sometimes I toggle back and forth between the Data Sheet view and the Rack view to see row-by-row statistics (which are at the bottom of the DS table). It'd be fantastic to be able to turn on/off a row-statistics view to the side of the rack, aligned with that row. Module count (passive count, too, but not as important to me), and power consumption in the row. That would let me see things like a specific row has a lot of power-hungry modules and the row below/above it doesn't, so that I can move things around to balance that out. An add-on here would be to make the "consolidate space" button that rearranges modules take power-balancing into consideration, too!

3. Rack statistics, and maybe even Collection statistics: I am a bit of a nerd for how my rack (and my module Collection) is balanced: each module has tags for functions (e.g. Oscillator, LPG, etc)... what percentage of the modules in the rack are Oscillators? How many things that can be LFOs do I have? Do I have way too many VCAs (how could that even happen?)? A chart would be awesome, but even just a table showing counts would be fun. In the same way, what about manufacturer breakdown (This rack is 30% Instruo, 41% DIY, 3% Make Noise, etc), module widths, or other facts about the rack in aggregate? I am the type of person to build a spreadsheet to figure stuff like this out, but maybe other people aren't ... like that.

Thanks for asking for feedback/ideas!
-- gimbalgambit

These ideas are brilliant. I was hunting in here for an API discussion, as a few times now I’ve had to resort to copying from my rack data sheet to a spreadsheet and stripping out the text (“mA”, “mm”, “hp”) to better-arrange my modules according to power zones. Allowing some sort of API access like this for Unicorns, along with pull requests for other features that can be opted into for Unicorns, would circumvent this.

Would it be possible to display the current firmware version for modules where applicable..?

Would depend on the community/manufacturer to keep it up to date but would mean I look in one place
-- matt_was_taken

This could already be added into the description field by the community or manufacturers.

I have two feature requests of my own:

1. a few times I’ve had my panel changed when somebody had added an aftermarket version, most recently with Pamela’s New Workout - I was surprised to find I suddenly had a black panel. It may be a good idea to give a manufacturer-prefenced first panel option.
2. The current method of dealing with modules with optional 5V on certain modules is clunky at best (different versions for e.g. BIA, SMR, RCD) and broken at worst (no version for Mordax DATA). Is there a way an optional voltage flag could be enabled per-module?

EDITED Feb 26th 2022, 07:07

headphone dongle wont' really help except for audio - for low frequencies you'd still need a dc-coupled interface and a usb dongle for the phone - nb you only get 2 channels this way

I'll just get myself one of those dongles for €10 and see if it does what I need. I also noticed that my Zoom H2n has a built-in tuner, but that's microphone based.

having mostly been in the same situation for most of my adult life, I've never had an issue being in front of a computer for a bit longer in order to do stuff I want to do - use a DAW, etc and for a long time if I wanted to watch any tv or movies it was also in front of a computer...

I hear you! And I have done the same. I find it very tiring. I'm aiming to be a bit more "Look mum no computer". Even if I don't use it all the time, it'll still be there to turn ideas from the modular into songs.

Yes, but at least they're velocity sensitive, unlike the SQ-64.

not via the trigger outs they're not - via midi they are I guess - never used mine other than via cv though

Oh blimey. I was actually eyeing the Digitakt as well, also because it'll be a fun standalone machine that I can take to family holidays without taking over the whole car booth. One of the reasons I took it off my list is the velocity sensitivity.

With modulation, I meant wave modulation actually. I agree that LFOs are better kept separate. It's why I have the A145-4 in there. LFOs serve one purpose, VCOs another and as with my short rant about O&C, I don't like tools that mix up purposes.

I don't really see any wavetable oscillators - I think I'd want a more ergonomic quad lfo...

Good point about the quad LFO. It also doesn't have a sine wave. As for the VCO - wavetable isn't necessary to do modulation. There's ring and FM etc that can all be done with two VCOs. I might actually want lots more VCOs if I'm going that route!

temps utile, random triggers, clock divider and multiplier, buffered mults and harmonaig all seem a little superfluous - you have 8 trigger outs and 2 cv/gate/velocity outputs (all with probability iirc) on the BSP and no percussion and only 2 vcos in the rack...

I am going to do percussion based on the noise generators.

I was thinking of using the Temps Utile, clock & random bits to to the rythm, but you're right - all of that is in the BSP... It's going to be much easier to control it all from there instead of programming it on the modular itself! It seems like I was walking on two parallel paths at the same time. It'll save me serious money that I can put towards a Maths.

And the Harmonaig - yeah, I'll need more VCOs if I want to use that at all...

in the larger rack - the droid stuff seems to be in a similar place - the chipz I would replace with a Maths, the 2 dvcas I'd replace with a veils - and I'm not convinced of the need for 2 dplrs - and I'm not convinced about the mix solution - no panning and no send/returns...

Yeah, that stereo bit... Always feels like a good idea to me, but I'm starting to feel it's not in its right place here. I'm going to keep it mono and do the stereo part in the DAW afterwards.

Necrobump, but I agree. That 150mA on +12V is can be better utilised by other modules that are actually drawing it ;)

try refreshing your rack before re linking it
-- JimHowell1970

It’s fine on my end and that’s all I need it to be. I don’t know why the url that works for me does not otherwise. I don’t have any idea how to find the rack with the Neutron in it unless I link to it from my email notification that someone has replied to this. If I log in and go to the my modular feature there is no issue. These comments are not under the accurate case with no Neutron.

EDITED Feb 26th 2022, 16:48

try refreshing your rack before re linking it

There is no Neutron in the case. I assume you’ve commented on some old version. Whatever you said is probably very accurate and well reasoned but not applicable.
-- The-Invisible-Hand-Of-CV

unless I'm imagining things there is a neutron in the case pictured above - maybe the thumbnail is out of date - try refreshing the rack and then re-linking!

-- JimHowell1970

I have no idea what’s going on but >

There is no Neutron in the case. I assume you’ve commented on some old version. Whatever you said is probably very accurate and well reasoned but not applicable.
-- The-Invisible-Hand-Of-CV

unless I'm imagining things there is a neutron in the case pictured above - maybe the thumbnail is out of date - try refreshing the rack and then re-linking!

-- JimHowell1970

I’ve no idea what that is but there is a Neutron in that case. That’s not mine so it’s not applicable to me or any of my items.

Oh well, now everything seems to be a case with a neutron everywhere but when I log in and look at it in my modular option from the menu. Oh well. This a curious happening. At any rate I don’t have a Neutron in a Dopefer A-100 cases.

EDITED Feb 26th 2022, 02:17

There is no Neutron in the case. I assume you’ve commented on some old version. Whatever you said is probably very accurate and well reasoned but not applicable.
-- The-Invisible-Hand-Of-CV

unless I'm imagining things there is a neutron in the case pictured above - maybe the thumbnail is out of date - try refreshing the rack and then re-linking!

@mikeleebirds

EDITED Feb 26th 2022, 00:54

there are definitely scope apps for iPhone - probably for Android too -but you'd have to find the one that works for you - can't say I've ever needed a scope though in 5-6 years of modular - I'd rate them as nice to have, rather than crucial - except for a few DIY builds

I'm a very visual person, so I like having a view on how the wave reacts to certain changes, like modulation. So I'm going to get a headphone dongle for my iphone (like, yeah, it was too expensive to add one into the phone itself) and do some research on that.

headphone dongle wont' really help except for audio - for low frequencies you'd still need a dc-coupled interface and a usb dongle for the phone - nb you only get 2 channels this way

nb there's dc-coupled and there's dc-coupled - something advertised as such will definitely be dc-coupled on outputs - but not necessarily on inputs...

The Motu M4 indeed has DC coupled outputs. DC coupling is new to me (like so many things), so some work to do here. I guess DC coupled out only means I can use it to send data from VCV Rack to the modular, but not vice versa? In that case, tuning with VCV Rack won't work. I just read an RME is similar to my M4, so I'd like to understand what you mean exactly here.

Anyway, as my primary aim is to uncouple myself from the dreaded PC screen that I spend all day in front of, I consider this a nice to have. It will remain in my studio rack and I won't be moving it into the Intellijel 7U case.

having mostly been in the same situation for most of my adult life, I've never had an issue being in front of a computer for a bit longer in order to do stuff I want to do - use a DAW, etc and for a long time if I wanted to watch any tv or movies it was also in front of a computer...

they're much more like buttons - MPC style pads, I guess - not like drumpads you can hit with a drumstick!

Yes, but at least they're velocity sensitive, unlike the SQ-64.

not via the trigger outs they're not - via midi they are I guess - never used mine other than via cv though

Yeah, I'm not aiming at more. There's plenty of oscillators in the big version but they can be used for modulation as well.

-- Arrandan

I try to keep lfos separate - every time I buy a module that'll do both - I end up using them for vco's - tides, tides2, cali - all work as both lfos and/or envelope generators - but sound great as vcos - so they end up being used as vcos - and I try to forget that some of the lfos, filters, envelope generators etc I have can also be used as vcos - otherwise I'd end up with patches with all vcos and virtually nothing left for modulation, filtering etc

With modulation, I meant wave modulation actually. I agree that LFOs are better kept separate. It's why I have the A145-4 in there. LFOs serve one purpose, VCOs another and as with my short rant about O&C, I don't like tools that mix up purposes.

I don't really see any wavetable oscillators - I think I'd want a more ergonomic quad lfo...

Aside from this rather very interesting discussion, is there anything you think is wrong or missing from the basic setup? Having played with a similar setup in VCV Rack, it feels like a good starting point to me.

And thanks for all your help!
-- Arrandan

yes: there are still issues:

temps utile, random triggers, clock divider and multiplier, buffered mults and harmonaig all seem a little superfluous - you have 8 trigger outs and 2 cv/gate/velocity outputs (all with probability iirc) on the BSP and no percussion and only 2 vcos in the rack...

in the larger rack - the droid stuff seems to be in a similar place - the chipz I would replace with a Maths, the 2 dvcas I'd replace with a veils - and I'm not convinced of the need for 2 dplrs - and I'm not convinced about the mix solution - no panning and no send/returns...

The only reason you'd need an oscilloscope in a typical studio...and it's a BIG one...is to check stereo phasing on your mixdowns. This becomes VERY critical if you're doing dance stuff, bass-heavy tracks, as you don't want panning and especially not out of phase signals in the frequency range below 120 Hz if the track in question is destined for vinyl.

Now, the other sort of display I'd recommend isn't a scope...but an RTA. Real-time Analyzers let you see the levels across the entire sound spectrum, and they can come in handy when trying to chase down hard-to-kill frequency "lumps" that're jumping out of the mix. And if you don't have a reliable set of monitors (and why wouldn't you? your monitor chain is probably THE MOST CRITICAL DEVICE in the studio), you can use the RTA to try and fix the discrepancies in the mix that your monitors are causing. But as far as that's concerned, I reiterate...they're the most critical part, and THEY should be fixed if you know you've got issues, tbh.
-- Lugia

can;t both of these be handled in a DAW? and the phasing issues be handled (at least to a large extent) by checking the mix in mono? which especially for bass heavy dance music is a pretty important step - as most clubs sound systems are effectively mono...

Take the Neutron out. Here's why...

We'll assume that the case is actually a Doepfer A-100 P9, which "streets" at $675. The case has a total of 252 hp available. And the Neutron goes for $329.

675/252 = 2.68 This is the cost per HP of the cab.

80 x 2.68 = 214.40 This is the EXTRA cost to house the Neutron in the Doepfer cab.

As such, this then makes the Neutron cost $543.40 while, at the same time, you've got a synth that should already have a case taking up 80 hp in a case that should be for modules that don't have that case of their own. And you need that space, mainly because there's a lot of small modules here that would be more usable if you went with larger versions. Case in point: the uGrids. Now, yes, the original's discontinued, so the only option there if you have to have one, it'll either be a clone (like here) or a used Mutable one. But given that the original is 16 hp and the clone here is half that, you'll almost certainly run into ergonomics issues which wouldn't be so limiting had you had access to Mutable's original. But then, if you go bigger with the modules, you then run into that Neutron again...which basically prevents expanding into more player-friendly modules by taking up all but the last 4 hp in an entire row.

-- Lugia

There is no Neutron in the case. I assume you’ve commented on some old version. Whatever you said is probably very accurate and well reasoned but not applicable.

The only reason you'd need an oscilloscope in a typical studio...and it's a BIG one...is to check stereo phasing on your mixdowns. This becomes VERY critical if you're doing dance stuff, bass-heavy tracks, as you don't want panning and especially not out of phase signals in the frequency range below 120 Hz if the track in question is destined for vinyl.

Now, the other sort of display I'd recommend isn't a scope...but an RTA. Real-time Analyzers let you see the levels across the entire sound spectrum, and they can come in handy when trying to chase down hard-to-kill frequency "lumps" that're jumping out of the mix. And if you don't have a reliable set of monitors (and why wouldn't you? your monitor chain is probably THE MOST CRITICAL DEVICE in the studio), you can use the RTA to try and fix the discrepancies in the mix that your monitors are causing. But as far as that's concerned, I reiterate...they're the most critical part, and THEY should be fixed if you know you've got issues, tbh.

Take the Neutron out. Here's why...

We'll assume that the case is actually a Doepfer A-100 P9, which "streets" at $675. The case has a total of 252 hp available. And the Neutron goes for $329.

675/252 = 2.68 This is the cost per HP of the cab.

80 x 2.68 = 214.40 This is the EXTRA cost to house the Neutron in the Doepfer cab.

As such, this then makes the Neutron cost $543.40 while, at the same time, you've got a synth that should already have a case taking up 80 hp in a case that should be for modules that don't have that case of their own. And you need that space, mainly because there's a lot of small modules here that would be more usable if you went with larger versions. Case in point: the uGrids. Now, yes, the original's discontinued, so the only option there if you have to have one, it'll either be a clone (like here) or a used Mutable one. But given that the original is 16 hp and the clone here is half that, you'll almost certainly run into ergonomics issues which wouldn't be so limiting had you had access to Mutable's original. But then, if you go bigger with the modules, you then run into that Neutron again...which basically prevents expanding into more player-friendly modules by taking up all but the last 4 hp in an entire row.

A More VCA module from Frequency Central. Two VCAs in a pretty narrow module, 4HP. Obviously not as full featured as some VCAs, but very good basic units if you don’t need a lot of frills for a specific sound,
Straightforward and fast build,Recommended
C.K. builds a More VCA module from Frequency Central

Nope, you're not doing something wrong. Fact is, pitch tracking has been a sticky point about synth + acoustic instrument setups since one of them played a big part in blowing up ARP in the late 1970s (ie: the Avatar). And the problem is that whenever you attempt to use this, you either have to have a no-foolin' monophonic instrument, or you're going to get glitches of varying sorts. With guitar, you have to cut the flash WAAAAAAY back...hit a second note with the first one sounding, have excess resonance from the other strings, and so on, and you've got glitches galore. The ONLY fix that ever came along that worked are Roland's hex pickup-based synths, since each string gets its own pickup and there also appears to be some circuit-fu that keeps the glitchy issues under control.

HOWEVER...there are reasons to want to use those glitches, and that starts with one Mr. Richard D. James, aka Aphex Twin. He started using the Korg MS-20's "input" section, which contains a pitch tracker, bandpass filter, envelope follower, etc for processing things it literally CANNOT process...like a TR-606. With some twiddling about, the end-result comes out to those squealy, clattery electronic patterns that characterize his early work...and it all comes down to "creative misuse", something I like to call "abuse potential" when it pops up. The MS-20's abuse potential is pretty much off the charts. So if you're getting glitches with the Sonicsmith converter, well...can you use the glitches musically? You might be about to stumble across a whole new sound...

I built this beast but it’s not complete. I don’t actually own the4MS Ensemble Oscillator the FX AID XL or the Malekko Quad VCA. I think I will buy them but you can never know until you hit buy on the website.

EDITED Feb 25th 2022, 22:41

there are definitely scope apps for iPhone - probably for Android too -but you'd have to find the one that works for you - can't say I've ever needed a scope though in 5-6 years of modular - I'd rate them as nice to have, rather than crucial - except for a few DIY builds

I'm a very visual person, so I like having a view on how the wave reacts to certain changes, like modulation. So I'm going to get a headphone dongle for my iphone (like, yeah, it was too expensive to add one into the phone itself) and do some research on that.

nb there's dc-coupled and there's dc-coupled - something advertised as such will definitely be dc-coupled on outputs - but not necessarily on inputs...

The Motu M4 indeed has DC coupled outputs. DC coupling is new to me (like so many things), so some work to do here. I guess DC coupled out only means I can use it to send data from VCV Rack to the modular, but not vice versa? In that case, tuning with VCV Rack won't work. I just read an RME is similar to my M4, so I'd like to understand what you mean exactly here.

Anyway, as my primary aim is to uncouple myself from the dreaded PC screen that I spend all day in front of, I consider this a nice to have. It will remain in my studio rack and I won't be moving it into the Intellijel 7U case.

they're much more like buttons - MPC style pads, I guess - not like drumpads you can hit with a drumstick!

Yes, but at least they're velocity sensitive, unlike the SQ-64.

Yeah, I'm not aiming at more. There's plenty of oscillators in the big version but they can be used for modulation as well.

-- Arrandan

I try to keep lfos separate - every time I buy a module that'll do both - I end up using them for vco's - tides, tides2, cali - all work as both lfos and/or envelope generators - but sound great as vcos - so they end up being used as vcos - and I try to forget that some of the lfos, filters, envelope generators etc I have can also be used as vcos - otherwise I'd end up with patches with all vcos and virtually nothing left for modulation, filtering etc

With modulation, I meant wave modulation actually. I agree that LFOs are better kept separate. It's why I have the A145-4 in there. LFOs serve one purpose, VCOs another and as with my short rant about O&C, I don't like tools that mix up purposes.

Aside from this rather very interesting discussion, is there anything you think is wrong or missing from the basic setup? Having played with a similar setup in VCV Rack, it feels like a good starting point to me.

And thanks for all your help!

@Angst_Atlas thanks, I'll see if I can find a trace of this mixer somewhere.

@JimHowell1970 I know about most of the matrix mixers, but I liked the looks and size of this one. I used to have the Doepfer and the Livestock Maze. Now I use CVilization, but would like something that's a bit simpler and quicker. I'll probably go for the AI008, the Wyrd or the one from Bear Modules.

Just got my module a few days back.

First impressions - it's usable with some glitchiness with a harmonica. Haven't tried anything else. Looking at the youtube video with guitar seems like playback is perfect. It's not quite that. Could be my settings or lack there of. The youtube video on Sonicsmith's website and the manual are quite different. Seems there are a bunch of missing features on the current firmware - .9. Bending works fine. I think the whole thing is best when mixing dry vs. wet. Wet would be a bit too glitchy for my liking. It has a charm tho.

I think there a bunch of improvements that need to be made or better communication. Maybe make a new video of just the current feature set. And take the demo video down. For example, the video has features that don't seem to exist at all. The manual seems to match what is available. Where are the extra compression settings, changing VCO type by knob, or the fact that you need the Q button turned on for pitch to track correctly? Also, the settings to manually change gain don't seem to work. I just do auto gain for levels and that works fine.

Hopefully there is a way to better tune this module in the future to remove glitches or make them less likely. Or maybe I'm doing something wrong. Is it worth $390? Not sure. The jury is not out yet.

Cold Mac is unobtainable new, and if you can find one used, you will pay a hefty premium. Probably best to figure out what you wanted most from it and find a substitute for that functionality. CVilization can do a lot but unless you use it daily, you'll need to keep the cheat sheet close at hand. One thing to remember is that any Versio module (including Desmodus) can be flashed with any of the other firmwares, and there is scope for user firmwares as well. Rings (and therefore Rangoon) also has alternate firmwares.

Still working my way through the album but really enjoyed "The Bucket Brigade" and "Gloria Dei Ubique est", nicely done.

yes - get a bigger case

the intellijel case is quite pricey - I'd go for a mantis instead (if you can find one - I see deliverys scheduled soonish in some EU/UK shops) - about 1/2 the price and plastic not aluminium case - the case for them is inexpensive and 1/2 decent these days - nb you wont notice the case once it's full and patched!

1 - good choices - I'd go veils over the intellijel quad though - slightly smaller by 2hp - you might find either a dedicated envelope follower or a dedicated lfo a good thing to add to that set of modules - Maths is great, but it's much better when you patch-program it and don't think of it as just a set of simple functional blocks - see the 'maths illustrtrated supplement' (via google)

you'll also want an instrument interface - the sonicsmith ev1 - seems to be the best in lots of ways - apparently the pitch tracking is great for single note runs etc - don't think it can handle chords - but nothing else can either

if you don't need pitch tracking - there are a number of input modules with envelope following and gate extraction - both are things you really want - and if in the future you want to add pitch following there's one in disting - which is supposed to be not bad - and disting is kind of like Maths in that it's a swiss army knife module - can do lots of things but only 1 at a time - can be daunting if you try to use too many different algos too quickly - just pick a few and set them up as favourites

as a guitarist your hands will be used playing the guitar - consider an expression pedal interface so you can get some control with your feet - addac, doepfer and 7dials all make them - 7 dials is DIY though but as a student you may be able to find someone who'll do an hours soldering for you for not much, or will teach you - if of course you can't solder yourself already!

2 - an audio interface... maybe you already have one and this will definitely work for audio - you may find you need attenuation and amplification - or balanced inputs - you may or may not need a i/o module - I'd try veils for amplification and some passive attenuators before a dedicated i/o module - unless you need balance i/o for your existng audio interface (which I doubt as it's a small prosumer one - at least it's got 4 outs - anything less is a waste of time)

3 - hands and ears and time - read manuals and if you don't understand something in them ask questions (& google 1st - someone else probably already asked the same question before) - remember outputs to inputs - a few passive mults and or stackcables will massively help...

EDITED Feb 25th 2022, 18:09

thanks @Angst_Atlas for chiming in!!

@mikeleebirds - there are plenty of other matrix mixers of a similar size available - both as DIY and factory built

I've got both a york modular one and a pusherman one - both DIY - iirc they are 10hp each and use trimmers - personally I'd rather have knobs and take up more space - so if/when I buy another one I'll probably go for the doepfer or possibly even the low-gain...

I don't see any modules that are particularly wide there...

any smaller and you'd lose ergonomics or functionality and you have plenty of space to have both of those which are equally important... at least imo

Hi Jim,

Sorry - had the rack private while I worked on them. They're public now.

Ah yes, the good old phone. Now there's an idea! Makes mental note - kick out the scope. Is there scope software for a phone as well? But then I'll really need an audio interface in the rack, e.g. that Expert Sleepers in my big setup.

there are definitely scope apps for iPhone - probably for Android too -but you'd have to find the one that works for you - can't say I've ever needed a scope though in 5-6 years of modular - I'd rate them as nice to have, rather than crucial - except for a few DIY builds

In my home studio, I have a small Motu M4 interface. It has 2 XLS/TRS and 2 line in. It's confirmed DC coupled by Sweetwater so I can use that there. But I expect only the XLS/TRS to be DC coupled, so it's very limited. May want to invest anyway in that case.

nb there's dc-coupled and there's dc-coupled - something advertised as such will definitely be dc-coupled on outputs - but not necessarily on inputs...

beatstep pro is good - I've got one - works great... mostly because it's been around for a long time - and they fixed nearly all the bugs- I've heard of a few issues with the sq64...

Good to know. I also like the fact it has actual drumpads instead of just buttons.

they're much more like buttons - MPC style pads, I guess - not like drumpads you can hit with a drumstick!

I'd try to aim for 3-4 voices max in a case this size - it's enough - otherwise there's not enough space for everything else you'll need...

I've got about 10 plus a bit of percussion - basically another 2 -3 modules - in something like 1000 hp and it seems about right to me...

Yeah, I'm not aiming at more. There's plenty of oscillators in the big version but they can be used for modulation as well.

-- Arrandan

I try to keep lfos separate - every time I buy a module that'll do both - I end up using them for vco's - tides, tides2, cali - all work as both lfos and/or envelope generators - but sound great as vcos - so they end up being used as vcos - and I try to forget that some of the lfos, filters, envelope generators etc I have can also be used as vcos - otherwise I'd end up with patches with all vcos and virtually nothing left for modulation, filtering etc

Hey all! So I've recently become really interested in building my first Eurorack but I'm a complete beginner and I've been having some issues.
For a little background, I'm a classical musician doing a doctorate in classical guitar and I've been exploring the use of electronics within classical music.
I want to build a generative system that functions as a standalone chance based instrument that also offers the option to plug in my guitar to work with the system.
At first I wanted to use the Intellijel 62HP palette case but I'm not sure if this would offer enough space and I've been told that it might be best to get a bigger case and fill it up over time. (7u/104HP?)
I've been watching a ton of videos and trying to read as much as I can but there's still a few things that I'm questioning.

1. I'm not quite sure what modules to start with. I know I need an oscillator, modulation source, sequencer and a VCA so I was thinking of Plaits, Maths, Marbles, and Intellijel''s Quad VCA
2. How would I be able to record into Ableton or perform live using a Focusrite 4i4?
3. What are the best resources to get more comfortable with actually patching this rig?

Apologies if this is all really basic and/or a mess but any insight is greatly appreciated - thanks!

Good transaction with @sedvted
Excellent communication, good packaging, quick shipping!

I bought this mixer some while ago on eBay. It was made by a guy from Berlin (can't remember the name). He said it was one of his first attempts (if I remember correctly) and it it based on the doepfer diy circuits.

That’s a great idea. Thanks!

Thanks for the feedback, y'all. I'm not going to be spending money anytime soon, but tweaking/researching/thinking about a future purchase certainly passes the time.

Based on feedback, I've updated the 'initial' build. Still several overly-wide modules that I'm researching good alternatives for. I swapped the Tool-Box for an eãs. The Cold Mac looks super interesting, though it seems like there are lots of complaints around its learning curve. Most of the changes come from narrowing down my sources of randomness and I settled on Sloths over the others (but CVilization seems awesome, maybe that'll win be back).

Honorable mention: Desmodus Versio and Rangoon (Rings clone/derivative) have caught my eye.

Hi Jim,

Sorry - had the rack private while I worked on them. They're public now.

i'd spend a bit more and get a dc-coupled interface - even if it's a used RME or something for $150 - that way you can use vcv rack - including the tuner and oscilloscopes in there!!! and forget about a scope in the case - the screen is tiny and you can use an app on your phone to tune..

Ah yes, the good old phone. Now there's an idea! Makes mental note - kick out the scope. Is there scope software for a phone as well? But then I'll really need an audio interface in the rack, e.g. that Expert Sleepers in my big setup.

In my home studio, I have a small Motu M4 interface. It has 2 XLS/TRS and 2 line in. It's confirmed DC coupled by Sweetwater so I can use that there. But I expect only the XLS/TRS to be DC coupled, so it's very limited. May want to invest anyway in that case.

beatstep pro is good - I've got one - works great... mostly because it's been around for a long time - and they fixed nearly all the bugs- I've heard of a few issues with the sq64...

Good to know. I also like the fact it has actual drumpads instead of just buttons.

I'd try to aim for 3-4 voices max in a case this size - it's enough - otherwise there's not enough space for everything else you'll need...

I've got about 10 plus a bit of percussion - basically another 2 -3 modules - in something like 1000 hp and it seems about right to me...

Yeah, I'm not aiming at more. There's plenty of oscillators in the big version but they can be used for modulation as well.

thanks guys,

very enlightening...

yeah.. i should wide some bits back.. and go a bit smaller..
get to know the gear and build from there...

im going to save that layout for future reference...

ill post a smaller set up soon .. '

thanks Farkas & Jim

ThanksCurioKid! I had never made paper mache before this. It was fun throwing that thing together. I really appreciate your comment.

Excellent points @JimHowell1970

I quote from moog "the eurorack market's just not big enough" (a few years back iirc)
-- JimHowell1970

Reminds me of the derp from IBM back in the late 1950s that said that, in total, the world will really only need five or six computers. Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmno.

-- Lugia

and Bill Gates saying no-one will ever need more than 640k of memory (or whatever it was)...

I think I've got 6-7 computers (only use 1 at the moment though and 5 are effectively antiques) - and a phone that's (near) infinitely more powerful than any computer that was around in the 50s...

Please make the racks public - no click through!!!!

Hello,
BTW, Jim, your signature is completely right. If sound sources are the organs, effects the muscles and sequencers the brains, then utilities are the skeleton. It's been a very enlightening week.

I'd say that the utilities are the cardi- vascular system - cases are the skeletons perhaps

For the case - you were right that a single 84HP row is much too limiting. I looked at cases and because the Mantis is currently hard to get, I found the Intellijel 7U 104HP stealth case, which is portable and has feet and some external connections. It's double the price of the Mantis, but with its metal build and lid, I like it a lot.

New version is here:

This is the basic version. I made a full version, which I'll link to at the bottom. That came out at over $6000, which is way beyond what I want to spend. So I stripped it down, mostly by removing features (some oscillators, the stereo bit) and sometimes by replacing bits by more cost effective parts (like the Droid for the Temps Utile or the chip osc + noise by a combo). That took the price down to about $2500, which is more manageable.

there's no need, in fact it's advisable, to buy everything at once - $2.5K, is more than enough to start with -in all likelihood you'll keep adding bits and pieces until you've spent at least $6k, if not considerably more - $100/month for over years is $6k - and 100/month is reasonably manageable... it's a few beers less a week,or so...

Top row is all utility. In this basic version, I'm using the Quadratt as the mixer. I like the idea of mixing patches with an external mixer, but on the road, I want to be able to output a single wire. I added the zeroscope for tuning and the occasional waveform check. It's much more cost-effective than a Mordax and I don't need much more. I filled it up with more utility that will always come in handy.

i'd spend a bit more and get a dc-coupled interface - even if it's a used RME or something for $150 - that way you can use vcv rack - including the tuner and oscilloscopes in there!!! and forget about a scope in the case - the screen is tiny and you can use an app on your phone to tune..

First 3U row has the Temps Utile, LFO, oscillators, a filter and the basic Befaco line+headphone out with cue.

Second 3U row has some randomness & and/or to take out beats at random, then clock div/mult. The Harmonaig is lots of fun - I played with it in VCV Rack. It's a keeper. The Zadar - if you can't tell: I like modules that are dedicated to one purpose, but offer lots of functionality within that scope. So I won't be adding an O&C, but I do have the FX AID (great suggestion!). Finally, a fun spring to round it off.

As for playing it, I'm looking at a hardware sequencer, preferably with pads. I mentioned Torso T-1 but it's all sold out and unavailable until August... I'm going to be using it starting April so I'm looking at an alternative. The Beatstep Pro is on my list, as is the SQ-64 and a couple of others.

beatstep pro is good - I've got one - works great... mostly because it's been around for a long time - and they fixed nearly all the bugs- I've heard of a few issues with the sq64...

So what do you think of this new setup?

The full version adds Mutable Ears+Rings, some more OSCs, filters, fx & VCAs, stereo (delay for imaging and pan for the rest) and the pretty impressive Droid with some expansions from Der Mann Mit Der Maschine. I love how versatile it is, yet dedicated to CV production and manipulation. There's an extra 3U row which corresponds to a 3U 19" row I have available in my studio rack. In it, I have the modules from the basic setup that I replaced by higher end modules (Temps Utile and the Feedback Static) as well as audio and MIDI interfaces. Here it is:

-- Arrandan

I'd try to aim for 3-4 voices max in a case this size - it's enough - otherwise there's not enough space for everything else you'll need...

I've got about 10 plus a bit of percussion - basically another 2 -3 modules - in something like 1000 hp and it seems about right to me...

It's so true lol 🙈

Makes me wonder if MG shouldn't have a warning label: "Modulargrid Can Be Hazardous To Your Wallet"!

Hello,

I did some more research and validation on VCV Rack and here's what I'm looking at now. BTW, Jim, your signature is completely right. If sound sources are the organs, effects the muscles and sequencers the brains, then utilities are the skeleton. It's been a very enlightening week.

For the case - you were right that a single 84HP row is much too limiting. I looked at cases and because the Mantis is currently hard to get, I found the Intellijel 7U 104HP stealth case, which is portable and has feet and some external connections. It's double the price of the Mantis, but with its metal build and lid, I like it a lot.

New version is here:

This is the basic version. I made a full version, which I'll link to at the bottom. That came out at over $6000, which is way beyond what I want to spend. So I stripped it down, mostly by removing features (some oscillators, the stereo bit) and sometimes by replacing bits by more cost effective parts (like the Droid for the Temps Utile or the chip osc + noise by a combo). That took the price down to about $2500, which is more manageable.

Top row is all utility. In this basic version, I'm using the Quadratt as the mixer. I like the idea of mixing patches with an external mixer, but on the road, I want to be able to output a single wire. I added the zeroscope for tuning and the occasional waveform check. It's much more cost-effective than a Mordax and I don't need much more. I filled it up with more utility that will always come in handy.

First 3U row has the Temps Utile, LFO, oscillators, a filter and the basic Befaco line+headphone out with cue.

Second 3U row has some randomness & and/or to take out beats at random, then clock div/mult. The Harmonaig is lots of fun - I played with it in VCV Rack. It's a keeper. The Zadar - if you can't tell: I like modules that are dedicated to one purpose, but offer lots of functionality within that scope. So I won't be adding an O&C, but I do have the FX AID (great suggestion!). Finally, a fun spring to round it off.

As for playing it, I'm looking at a hardware sequencer, preferably with pads. I mentioned Torso T-1 but it's all sold out and unavailable until August... I'm going to be using it starting April so I'm looking at an alternative. The Beatstep Pro is on my list, as is the SQ-64 and a couple of others.

So what do you think of this new setup?

The full version adds Mutable Ears+Rings, some more OSCs, filters, fx & VCAs, stereo (delay for imaging and pan for the rest) and the pretty impressive Droid with some expansions from Der Mann Mit Der Maschine. I love how versatile it is, yet dedicated to CV production and manipulation. There's an extra 3U row which corresponds to a 3U 19" row I have available in my studio rack. In it, I have the modules from the basic setup that I replaced by higher end modules (Temps Utile and the Feedback Static) as well as audio and MIDI interfaces. Here it is:

I quote from moog "the eurorack market's just not big enough" (a few years back iirc)
-- JimHowell1970

Reminds me of the derp from IBM back in the late 1950s that said that, in total, the world will really only need five or six computers. Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmno.

Such an epic video! now I'm thinking of what animal/object I want to make... maybe I can commission my friend, a papier maché wizard, to help me make something massive.

the performance at the end was just beautiful. thanks for sharing

Very nice jam and cool setup, enjoyed it and thanks for introducing the band!

All the best.

I always suggest Ornament and Crime...so many different functions to explore...when you find one you like, buy a module for it and change what you use O_C for...even better to add the Hemisphere firmware

Further changes.

Added Duatt. Added clock divider. Added USB power source should i want to travel with some small USB powered keyboard.

Purchased Knit module. So, 3 U sections are all purchased except Batumi and Veils.

1 U units purchased are everything but Milky Way, clock divider, duatt and USB power.

To reiterate, likely to use 0-CTRL with this and DAW sequencer / MIDI keyboards.

This case will live in immediate proximity to Erica Synths DB-01 ( which as limited patching ) as well as Moog's Matriarch, DFAM and SubH.

not anxiety - more like oh there's a part of the rack that's unusable... that was a waste of money, wasn't it - lucky the OP came here before buying and can hopefully be guided away from them...

dunno - but if you look at the product page you can see who submitted it - maybe you could DM them? they probably have a good idea

Who makes this mixer?

Oh Garfield, you are always just the nicest and most thoughtful person. Thank you for watching.

or batumi, branches, zadar

or tides, a matrix mixer (doepfer, 4ms vcam, a n other), fx aid xl

or stages, 3mia, 3vca

or beads, rings, pamelas new workout

basically any combination of sound modifiers, modulation and utilities

see the formula in my signature - it's a rough guide to building a balanced modular

I'd probably not add more than 1 or 2 more sound sources - possibly tides and rings - tides can double as a modulation source and rings as a sound modifier - otherwise you won't have space for the more interesting modules that you'll need to support them...