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I had kind of given up on the complex control scheme / complex routings in Live and Bitwig; when I tried that seriously ~2 years ago, it was so klunky, I couldn't get it to work smoothly in a way that wasn't a nightmare for me.
-- nickgreenberg
Yeah, Live is a bit of a resource hog. I never have significant issues running it, though...but the machine it resides on is a bit "non-standard". It's an H-P Z620 with dual 8-core Xeons @ 2.6 GHz, 32 GB RAM.
The rationale behind using this sort of platform revolves SOLELY around thruput. Having seen how other platforms with less cores (but more speed) deal with Live 10 and upwards, I opted to get a machine that had as many cores as I could get within a certain budgetary constraint...and I found these refurbed on Newegg and knew that if the parallel processing didn't bog the machine down (which I didn't expect to happen), this would BLOW SMOKE. And sure enough, it does. I can still crash it, but it takes a project with LOADS of tracks, well over 50-60 active plugins, and a ton of automation lanes to get it to choke. VSTs that are extremely processor-intensive can be a problem as well...such as with Arturia's Sound Easel emulation, but these sorts of VSTs will bottom-out pretty much ANY machine unless it's a real screamer.
Upshot is that if you can get buttloads of processor cores, Live purrs like a kitten. And that Z620 is what was referred to as a "virtualization workstation", which is not quite like a regular PC, but is a machine that was optimized for VR emulation...which ALSO requires tons of thruput. The choice was kinda obvious.
Hmm, I do have the full version of Live 11 and Bitwig Studio.
I had kind of given up on the complex control scheme / complex routings in Live and Bitwig; when I tried that seriously ~2 years ago, it was so klunky, I couldn't get it to work smoothly in a way that wasn't a nightmare for me.
But NOW I have a much faster computer and the more recent Live / Bitwig suites may have better utilities / performance on this front. AND you say you are getting interesting / easy results on this front. I will have to go back to the DAWs to try again. Thanks for the pointer re Live + Max!
Go back to your build page, reload it a few times, then go into "view" and select "Screenshot". If the screenshot looks right, then edit the post by removing the page's URL, reposting, then re-editing it with the current page's URL (yes, even if it's the same). Otherwise, the Forum keeps the old screenshot version in place.
-- Lugia
Thanks for your help! I tried that a few times to no avail and ended up just making a copy.
Go back to your build page, reload it a few times, then go into "view" and select "Screenshot". If the screenshot looks right, then edit the post by removing the page's URL, reposting, then re-editing it with the current page's URL (yes, even if it's the same). Otherwise, the Forum keeps the old screenshot version in place.
Live works admirably here, as long as it's the FULL version with Max for Live. That one addition unlocks a lot of the hidden power under Ableton's hood, and since you can define LOTS of possible operations/routings/etc via Max, it's sort of a unique situation. But it's VERY easy to set up all sorts of "sneaky" send/return signal paths with M4L objects. With that, I can set up lots of actions that are basically nonrepeating, yet which follow clear musical patterns as a work plays.
It's a big jump in price for those of us in the US, but you're right. Resale value is good, for sure.
Here's another with upright, a little less skronky.
-- baltergeist
Wow, this is way more musical than most anything I did on the PB and the DK. Really like your tunes. As for my earlier shenanigans with these “esoteric” machines, here’s some of my PB and DK output:
I didn't know Peter B. had moved to Berlin. Just checked the prices, the Plumbutter is going for EUR 1600, pretty steep but CL instruments have a high resale value (I sold mine for 1300 euros). If had more space and funds for music gear I'd definitely buy a Plumbutter and a Double Knot again. I sold both to make room and money for the eurorack project. I have no regrets though a double-Double Knot is on my shopping list. It's more affordable and is the ideal West Coast percussion-synth for me. I've been missing my v1 eversince I had to let it go.
I am inspired by birth, death and the events inbetween.
doepfer - a little bit more expensive but built like a tank - there will be people with ones that are over 20 years old still going strong
mutable instruments links - about 3 times the price but not only do you get 2 buffered mults and a mixer, one of the mults can also be used as a pecision adder and a mixer - very very useful module
or just take a gamble on this one - it's 30quid! do you have anything to check it with?
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
Owning a Scales myself and having recently recommended one to another poster on here, I think @JimHowell1970 is probably right that an O&C or a Disting would both be a better choice here.
Looking for some more experienced opinions on my first draft of my future first modular system. A little bit about what I do and what I'm hoping to get out of this system:
-I am a professional producer/engineer/musician and this would mostly be used on clients' music but I still want it to be populated with modules I enjoy. Also, I would probably be the one doing most of the synthesis or helping guide clients through the system so it should reflect my tastes etc.
-I have a few nice standalone synths (Moog LPII, Deckard's Dream MKII, vintage Microwave I, Elektron Analog Rytm MKII) and a lot of virtual synths but this would be my first foray into the world of modular. I'm looking for a mix of stuff that is not possible/easy with my current synths and also just different flavors of the classic sounds already at my disposal.
-Looking for both percussive and melodic patch capabilities but mostly the latter.
-Mostly interested in retro-ey musical applications (early Brian Eno, Pink Floyd, Moroder, Wendy Carlos, early Depeche Mode, Stevie Wonder etc) but would also like to dip my toe in more modern stuff like generative sequences.
-This would really only be for recording projects so easy integration into Pro Tools sessions is a must and live performance-specific stuff is not important to me.
-I have a lot of guitar pedals, plugins, and some rack units for FX so I'm not too concerned about having much in the way of effect modules in the system.
All that being said I'm wondering what redundancies and glaring omissions you might see. At first I was thinking I would build a system around the Mother 32 but I wavered and came out with this instead. But maybe I should reconsider? I'd love to get the cost down a bit (as things stand this isn't unimaginable for me if I think I'll use it a lot, but it's a little steep, though of course I don't need to buy everything all at once). Also, I'm fairly handy with a soldering iron and could maybe build DIY versions of some of the simpler modules.
Feel like I've rambled a lot, sorry. Would love some input on my first draft of my first modular system! Thanks!!!
Okay, "complex control orders" or a hierarchy of controls with, for example, background / midground / foreground cycles plus one or more "lens" or "reader" cycles that selects (promotes) events from the total control hierarchy. In scheme, this makes sense. In practice, I'm sure I'd have a lot of details to work out!
Curiously, this intersects a lot of my favorite ideas from various music / compositional theorists. While I would like to explore this in modular, that will likely take a good chunk of future time and $s.
DOES ANYONE KNOW OF A GOOD IN-DAW CONTROL EVQUIVALENTS to this kind of hierarchical / generative CV scheme? That is something I'd like to dig into further immediately. I'VE REALLY looked for a way to implement this before, but the best I could come up with is some nested MIDI chains and routings in Bitwig (Bitwig, unlike Live 10 and prior, will do many to one or one to many MIDI send / receive configuirations). That works so so, but is pretty fussy to implement and leaves much to be desired. I tried Symbolic Composer (SCOM) but found that a miss for my purposes and tastes. The one-to-one (one finger, one keyboard key; one mouse click, one DAW sequencer cell) control relationship in composing is something I'd really like to break in my workflow, moving towards many to one and one to many control schemes (e.g. hierarchical schemes). It does sound like there's a pathway to do this in analog modular BUT I would love also working DAW-based approach if possible!
This is a significant tangent -- maybe enough to start a new thread on. But let's see if some interesting responses flow in here.
BTW the Four Tet New Energy sounds great to me!! Really cool.
Often caustic and chaotic, but capable of sublime beauty in the right hands. There are a few adepts out there who can really wring some magic out of them.
Which brings up a point: now that there's a huge installed base of Eurorack out there, you WILL see bargain prices on used gear...finally! It's not so esoteric anymore, which is a boon if you're trying to build a new system on the cheap or if you're trying to find something discontinued.
Yep, the C-L stuff is pretty unique, mainly due to the different ideas lurking inside them. The best description I can think of would be that what you get from them is sortakinda like they were created by someone using Don Buchla's design sensibilities, but the sound production hardware has more in common with Stanley Lunetta's uniquely raucous circuitry. As such, Peter B.'s (and the Lorre-Mill stuff, which is a continuation of that) instruments are very unique in how they splice those very different sonic paradigms together.
Actually rather common in test gear. I know that Tektronix made TM500-series modules that were little onboard "cases" in which you could shove all of the test leads, probes, etc...then snap on the TM500 rack's cover, and you were ready to go. Hewlett-Packard, also, had some similar "compartment modules" for various modular systems of their design.
Yeah, it's VERY Schillinger! And yes, that gets further into the "complex control orders" methods, where you've got a module that outputs something, but that module is controlled by a couple of others, which in turn are governed by something else, etc.
For a good example of the sort of thing that this can do in analog, I'd suggest a listen to Four Tet's "New Energy". While the melodic parts there are definitely done with MIDI sequencing, by using complex timing alterations and "deep order" control, you can arrive at similar structures in the analog domain. And yeah, it takes some time and exploration to sort out, but the reward far outweighs the effort needed.
The top half is my very first 104hp skiff that I'm building now.
the bottom half will be another 104hp skiff that I want to build next year after I asses my needs with the first skiff.
I'm sure I can do better, I think I need more utilities but I honestly have no clue what I want to get because I have no clue what most utilities do. I need to do more research in that aspect.
Skiff 1 (Top): I went back to basics with this skiff. Mainly cause I keep straying further away from what I want to do with my rack, which was patch sounds that will compliment my music. I know 3 sound sources might be a bit much, but I wanted lots of options while patching traditional synth sounds, and experimental sounds including weird electronic sounding riffs and kick drums. I thought about adding a modulation source but then realized that Pam's NEW Workout could be used as an LFO so I changed my mind on that, plus I thought that adding some modulation sources later would be more effective than now, seeing as how I don't really know what I might be missing just yet. Ill play with it first and then decide...
...Which brings us to skiff 2 (bottom)
I tried to think carefully about what I might want in order to give my system some tasty flavor.
A couple more sound sources and some utilities I guess.
A Varigate 4+ sequencer for flexibility in my melodies, Stages for lots of different modulation, A micro Ornament and Crime, The Basimilus Iteritas Alter (because I don't want to miss out on it), the micro Grids for more percussion sequencing options, a Monsoon which is just a micro Clouds for some effects, a ripples filter (even though I already have a Polaris), the Maths (because I decided to change it to a Quadra in my first skiff to save room), and a vnlcursal 6 channel VCA for fun.
I dunno. I just chose things I wanted just to give myself an idea. It will change of course ;)
regarding vcos - it's something that you have to work out yourself - listen to as many examples as possible of the ones you are interested in
I'd be tempted to buy your favourite pair of the 2 you have already chosen and live with them for a while - you may find you like th freedom too patch or you may find you want somethign that is more pre-patched (or at least organised) for you
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
hhhhhmmmm ok - to me only one of those modules is an utility - the others are modulation sources
It's been a long night into day and i'm still at it I meant to write modulation sources, but I am thinking the SIMS might be better than the 321, even though it takes up a little more HP
I would try using batumi - it's a great module, but it's an lfo and not an envelope generator as the other 2 are so functions >differently - primarily loops not one shots
adsr is more if you want to emulate a keyboard and zadar is a very complex envelope generator, which is a bit wasted if all you use >it for are basic envelopes
My qualm with the batumi is that it has a divey aspect with no screen. I figure if I opt for a divey modulation source, a screen would be nice. The Zadar can be used as an LFO in a pinch, right? I am also not against adding a dedicated LFO module if I do end up going for the Zadar.
Filter8 is definitely very popular - I would also suggest looking at doepfer if you want variety - they are inexpensive and do what >they say they do! - iirc there's a compare all video on youtube - which will at least give you an idea of how different filter >architectures souond even if you don't get one of theirs in the end
Will definitely do this and meditate on my upcoming filter selection. I realize filter choice is highly personal, so thanks for the tip!
take a look at the maths illustrated manual to answer that one - I'm considering a joranalogue compare2 - it will do a lot more >than maths will in terms of logic
Slowly working my way through it. Most of my homework is tied up with the Allen Strange text at the moment! But dude. That PWM patch on the compare2 sounds sick! Currently watching divkid's video on it haha
Hahaha yes, it seems like I got too excited with the crossfaders! I'll try removing some, thanks for pointing that out.
I wasn't totally sold out on the Varigate 4+ and that link certainly helps. I'll give it another thought, but maybe it would be a good idea going with an external sequencer instead.
Regarding the voices, would I be ok with four VCOs or do you think it would work better if I replaced two of them for a complex oscillator? something like the DPO maybe?
Thanks for your feedback, I definitively need to work a bit more on this rack.
As always with my recent recordings, I try to to make sure something is learned. This time was trying to drive five separate oscillators with three sequencers. This is 5 oscillators driven by three different 5 note sequences. The modular was recorded as a live performance by working the faders on the modular mixer.
Then it turned into another learning experiment with the drums. Drums were added afterwards to fit the performance. Drums sounds are from EZ Drummer. But instead of using midi patterns, the patterns here are custom and were build using Studio One 5's pattern maker tool.
Thank you! For me, there is a timbre to both Ciat-Lonbarde and Lorre-Mill gear that I couldn't get out of my eurorack set-up. At this point I have a bare-bones euro system that I use primarily as a mixer and effects send. The only voices are a 2hp Bell and a Morphagene, everything else is either a utility or effect (characterizing things like MATHS and Batumi as utilities), with one basic sequencer, a Varigate 4+. I also find the CL/LM gear really conducive to what I do since it isn't really ambient/generative, and definitely isn't any type of EDM. It sucks that Peter moved to Berlin and new CL pieces are so expensive now. They weren't cheap to begin with, but it's kind of nuts now. I feel very fortunate I picked up my pieces when I did.
I actually have a list of utility modules that interest me, a lot of which were recommendations you made in other threads:
4MS SIMS (I like that it can handle precision adder duties, which the Frap Tools does not seem to do.)
Joranalogue Contour 1
XAOC Zadar
Intellijel Quadrax (which you so awesomely included!)
hhhhhmmmm ok - to me only one of those modules is an utility - the others are modulation sources
As it stands, the Batumi is unracked. I actually bought it because I couldn't find a Zadar in stock anywhere. I have about three weeks to return the Batumi to a local vendor, so I am thinking of just getting a Zadar instead. Do you think I could get away with dropping the DUAL ADSR and Batumi in favor of the Zadar? If not, how would your recommendations evolve if I did opt for a Zadar in place of the Batumi?
I would try using batumi - it's a great module, but it's an lfo and not an envelope generator as the other 2 are so functions differently - primarily loops not one shots
adsr is more if you want to emulate a keyboard and zadar is a very complex envelope generator, which is a bit wasted if all you use it for are basic envelopes
Also, I am considering replacing the dual borg with two independent filters. I initially bought it because I need two filters, and figued the Malekko design of the dual borg plays well into the west coast voice. However, I am learning that there are various filter designs (ladder, diode, state variable, butterworth, sallen-key), and I value the variety. This is modular after all! The Moog semis certainly handle the ladder design. Do you have any non ladder filter recommendations? If not, what filter designs do you recommend I add to my system? I am highly considering the Joranalogue Filter 8 as one choice, since it packs a ton of functionality.
Filter8 is definitely very popular - I would also suggest looking at doepfer if you want variety - they are inexpensive and do what they say they do! - iirc there's a compare all video on youtube - which will at least give you an idea of how different filter architectures souond even if you don't get one of theirs in the end
I find it interesting that you mention comparators are an important of generative music. I don't have much experience with raw logic modules, so it is something I want to dabble in if possible. Couldn't I coax that functionality out of the Maths? I feel as though I came across a patch that accomplishes it, albeit at the cost of multiple channels.
take a look at the maths illustrated manual to answer that one - I'm considering a joranalogue compare2 - it will do a lot more than maths will in terms of logic
maths is a great module but when it comes to using it for 'interesting' things like almost all swiss army knife modules it can only really do one at a time
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
there's quite a bit of functional duplication in the crossfader department - I don't actually think I've ever seen a rack with so many before definitely not this size! I would start with one - which will help free up space for a better sequencer, if that's what you decide - maybe keep the antimatter audio one - gain 10hp
there are other things that could be reduced in size or removed:
do you really need an output module? - maybe - if it's just for headphones then there's a 2hp alm hpo module that will do that - gain 4hp
the z5000 could be replaced with an fx aid xl - gain 2hp
the quad vca could be replaced with something smaller - either another veils or the 3 channel happy nerding vca perhaps - gain 6hp
the function could be replaced with a second pip slope - gain 4hp
maybe if you replace the sequencer you will get one with a built in clock - so you do not need the horologic solum - gain 4hp
plus the varigate 4+ for another 12hp
if you do all those things that would give you about 40 hp to put a sequencer in - which will give you a much better choice - you can always put another crossfader back in after finding the right sequencer
even if you are looking to stay with the varigate - I'd consider all those possible changes - definitely something to think about, as it will leave you some space to explore
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
Wow, thanks for the reply! I don't know anyone else into modular synthesis, so I really appreciate you taking the time to vibe with me on this.
I have no qualms selling any modules that I have, so if you want to replace anything, feel free to do so!
One reason I never went for the MIDI 1u was because it's been hard to come by. I also dislike that it only offers one channel of MIDI. The uMIDI that I have was bought for dirt cheap, so that's the only reason I am using it. What I really would like to do is get an FH-2, since it can convert multiple midi channels into CV. It can also connect to the midi sockets on the intellijel case, so major points there. With that said, I have also been considering an ES-3/ES-6 combo. I am mainly interested in using the ES-3 for pitch sequencing, and the ES-6 for ADAT recording. Perhaps getting an ES-3/ES-6 just for this would be wasteful though, as I can simply stick with a midi/cv interface, and chain a cheap audio interface with lots of inputs + ADAT out to my Motu Ultralite.
If I do go for an Expert Sleepers oriented midi/cv solution, I can't help but feel that the ornament&crime might not get any use. As it stands, I have it in the case as a quantizer, but since I use a computer for my production, I can handle that in my DAW. I am considering a dedicated quantizer module (Intellijel Scales) instead, for playability. No plans for any live modular performance at the moment, but the immediacy of a dedicated module is not lost on me. It's nice to be able to play on the modular without mucking around on the computer. I got the o_C for dirt cheap (built it up with an engineering buddy of mine), so I do not mind parting ways with it.
Totally dig the Rubicon Complex oscillator set up! I can't help but feel that the STO might be too redundant if I added the Rubicon however. Couldn't I just the FM the Rubicon and STO? Perhaps I am being too shortsighted, so please feel free to school me lol. Just want to avoid having too many oscillators, since I will have a total of 4 semi modular systems (0-Coast, Strega, DFAM, Subharmonicon)
I am curious as to why you opted to add three noise noise sources. Would the Wogglebug and and Quantum Rainbow not be enough? The noise tools does clocking and s/h, but I have Pams and the Wogglebug for this. Is including it simply a matter of "modulating the modulator"? I do not mind getting a more featured 3u module to combine what the Noise Tools and Quantum Rainbow does.
My main reason for including the MN Contour was for the dynamic gate input. I like that the contour circuit on the 0-coast responds to gate dynamically, and I wanted to have the opportunity to bring that dynamism to my 7u case as well. Upon further research, however, I am seeing that this functionality can be recreated with a slew limiter. I am unsure how I would on how to recreate that, however. Is this just a function inherent to slew limiters?
Speaking of s/h and slew limiters, I did notice that Toppobrillo is bringing back the Sport Modulator. Perhaps I would do well to wait for it to be released...
I actually have a list of utility modules that interest me, a lot of which were recommendations you made in other threads:
4MS SIMS (I like that it can handle precision adder duties, which the Frap Tools does not seem to do.)
Joranalogue Contour 1
XAOC Zadar
Intellijel Quadrax (which you so awesomely included!)
As it stands, the Batumi is unracked. I actually bought it because I couldn't find a Zadar in stock anywhere. I have about three weeks to return the Batumi to a local vendor, so I am thinking of just getting a Zadar instead. Do you think I could get away with dropping the DUAL ADSR and Batumi in favor of the Zadar? If not, how would your recommendations evolve if I did opt for a Zadar in place of the Batumi?
Also, I am considering replacing the dual borg with two independent filters. I initially bought it because I need two filters, and figued the Malekko design of the dual borg plays well into the west coast voice. However, I am learning that there are various filter designs (ladder, diode, state variable, butterworth, sallen-key), and I value the variety. This is modular after all! The Moog semis certainly handle the ladder design. Do you have any non ladder filter recommendations? If not, what filter designs do you recommend I add to my system? I am highly considering the Joranalogue Filter 8 as one choice, since it packs a ton of functionality.
Super stoked that I can get some drum action going on in the 7u with your configuration though! Should pair along nicely with the DFAM
I find it interesting that you mention comparators are an important of generative music. I don't have much experience with raw logic modules, so it is something I want to dabble in if possible. Couldn't I coax that functionality out of the Maths? I feel as though I came across a patch that accomplishes it, albeit at the cost of multiple channels.
Thank you for your time once again. It has been quite the journey so far, and I am excited for what's to come!
Hi Garfield,
Thanks for your reply. I'm cross with myself for never checking out what the Model CV input did, but it's a nice surprise. All manner of fun with that one. It's one of the things I really like about modular is the constant learning journey. Keeps my tired old brain active. Kind regards to you too.
p.s. I'd like to read your review of the STO when you have the time to finish it :)
@Lugia I'm again reviewing your very interesting rack and comments above. I've had to look up most modules as they were not already familiar to me.
The general architecture of this rack, I've used as inspiration for my latest rack design (in a thread posted earlier today).
What I'm still not understanding about the rack above is how i might use the bottom row units left of Echoz in a rig that I'm mainly using as a mono synth for EDM style pitched (no percussion) parts. Specifically, I'm not easily imagining use cases for significant clocking plus clock division / skipping / clock delay.
What I CAN sort of imagine is getting a complex mix of gates and voltage into the quantizer, and having that drive note events instead of a standard sequencer. Maybe that is what is considered "generative" or "complex sequencing?" That is not how I normally think about about composition BUT it has some very intersting implications which remind me of my favorite works by Schillinger. May be fun and rewarding for me to explore in modular!
In any event, the demo build you offered above is very interesting and I wanted to ask what are your likely use cases for those bottom row modules that are still rather mysterious to me.
Thanks again for your very interesting comments and ideas!
well you didn't mention that you had another audio interface - sorry mixer - why not just go straight into that then and bypass the mixer and the es9?
if it's audio it doesn't need to be dc-coupled - that is just for cv
-- JimHowell1970
ahh yes my bad:)well the thing is my case is a 13U travel case,only use the studiolive in the studio,and like eeryone im hoping to one day be able to play live again.
so it is possible to use this mixer with my presonus,so i dont have to get the es-9?if yes i just need some cable to connect theeurorack mixer to the presonus
that's the only good reason for wanting a quantizer - but I agree with @mog00 - get something that can quantize, but isn;t just a quantizer - O&C or a disting would fit the bill and do other things once the metropolix arrives - I'd read the manuals for both before deciding - and make sure you check out hemispheres the alternate firmware for O&C which massively extends its capabilities
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
