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That’s a great idea. Thanks!

Thanks for the feedback, y'all. I'm not going to be spending money anytime soon, but tweaking/researching/thinking about a future purchase certainly passes the time.

Based on feedback, I've updated the 'initial' build. Still several overly-wide modules that I'm researching good alternatives for. I swapped the Tool-Box for an eãs. The Cold Mac looks super interesting, though it seems like there are lots of complaints around its learning curve. Most of the changes come from narrowing down my sources of randomness and I settled on Sloths over the others (but CVilization seems awesome, maybe that'll win be back).

Honorable mention: Desmodus Versio and Rangoon (Rings clone/derivative) have caught my eye.

Hi Jim,

Sorry - had the rack private while I worked on them. They're public now.

i'd spend a bit more and get a dc-coupled interface - even if it's a used RME or something for $150 - that way you can use vcv rack - including the tuner and oscilloscopes in there!!! and forget about a scope in the case - the screen is tiny and you can use an app on your phone to tune..

Ah yes, the good old phone. Now there's an idea! Makes mental note - kick out the scope. Is there scope software for a phone as well? But then I'll really need an audio interface in the rack, e.g. that Expert Sleepers in my big setup.

In my home studio, I have a small Motu M4 interface. It has 2 XLS/TRS and 2 line in. It's confirmed DC coupled by Sweetwater so I can use that there. But I expect only the XLS/TRS to be DC coupled, so it's very limited. May want to invest anyway in that case.

beatstep pro is good - I've got one - works great... mostly because it's been around for a long time - and they fixed nearly all the bugs- I've heard of a few issues with the sq64...

Good to know. I also like the fact it has actual drumpads instead of just buttons.

I'd try to aim for 3-4 voices max in a case this size - it's enough - otherwise there's not enough space for everything else you'll need...

I've got about 10 plus a bit of percussion - basically another 2 -3 modules - in something like 1000 hp and it seems about right to me...

Yeah, I'm not aiming at more. There's plenty of oscillators in the big version but they can be used for modulation as well.

thanks guys,

very enlightening...

yeah.. i should wide some bits back.. and go a bit smaller..
get to know the gear and build from there...

im going to save that layout for future reference...

ill post a smaller set up soon .. '

thanks Farkas & Jim

ThanksCurioKid! I had never made paper mache before this. It was fun throwing that thing together. I really appreciate your comment.

Excellent points @JimHowell1970

I quote from moog "the eurorack market's just not big enough" (a few years back iirc)
-- JimHowell1970

Reminds me of the derp from IBM back in the late 1950s that said that, in total, the world will really only need five or six computers. Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmno.

-- Lugia

and Bill Gates saying no-one will ever need more than 640k of memory (or whatever it was)...

I think I've got 6-7 computers (only use 1 at the moment though and 5 are effectively antiques) - and a phone that's (near) infinitely more powerful than any computer that was around in the 50s...

Please make the racks public - no click through!!!!

Hello,
BTW, Jim, your signature is completely right. If sound sources are the organs, effects the muscles and sequencers the brains, then utilities are the skeleton. It's been a very enlightening week.

I'd say that the utilities are the cardi- vascular system - cases are the skeletons perhaps

For the case - you were right that a single 84HP row is much too limiting. I looked at cases and because the Mantis is currently hard to get, I found the Intellijel 7U 104HP stealth case, which is portable and has feet and some external connections. It's double the price of the Mantis, but with its metal build and lid, I like it a lot.

New version is here:

This is the basic version. I made a full version, which I'll link to at the bottom. That came out at over $6000, which is way beyond what I want to spend. So I stripped it down, mostly by removing features (some oscillators, the stereo bit) and sometimes by replacing bits by more cost effective parts (like the Droid for the Temps Utile or the chip osc + noise by a combo). That took the price down to about $2500, which is more manageable.

there's no need, in fact it's advisable, to buy everything at once - $2.5K, is more than enough to start with -in all likelihood you'll keep adding bits and pieces until you've spent at least $6k, if not considerably more - $100/month for over years is $6k - and 100/month is reasonably manageable... it's a few beers less a week,or so...

Top row is all utility. In this basic version, I'm using the Quadratt as the mixer. I like the idea of mixing patches with an external mixer, but on the road, I want to be able to output a single wire. I added the zeroscope for tuning and the occasional waveform check. It's much more cost-effective than a Mordax and I don't need much more. I filled it up with more utility that will always come in handy.

i'd spend a bit more and get a dc-coupled interface - even if it's a used RME or something for $150 - that way you can use vcv rack - including the tuner and oscilloscopes in there!!! and forget about a scope in the case - the screen is tiny and you can use an app on your phone to tune..

First 3U row has the Temps Utile, LFO, oscillators, a filter and the basic Befaco line+headphone out with cue.

Second 3U row has some randomness & and/or to take out beats at random, then clock div/mult. The Harmonaig is lots of fun - I played with it in VCV Rack. It's a keeper. The Zadar - if you can't tell: I like modules that are dedicated to one purpose, but offer lots of functionality within that scope. So I won't be adding an O&C, but I do have the FX AID (great suggestion!). Finally, a fun spring to round it off.

As for playing it, I'm looking at a hardware sequencer, preferably with pads. I mentioned Torso T-1 but it's all sold out and unavailable until August... I'm going to be using it starting April so I'm looking at an alternative. The Beatstep Pro is on my list, as is the SQ-64 and a couple of others.

beatstep pro is good - I've got one - works great... mostly because it's been around for a long time - and they fixed nearly all the bugs- I've heard of a few issues with the sq64...

So what do you think of this new setup?

The full version adds Mutable Ears+Rings, some more OSCs, filters, fx & VCAs, stereo (delay for imaging and pan for the rest) and the pretty impressive Droid with some expansions from Der Mann Mit Der Maschine. I love how versatile it is, yet dedicated to CV production and manipulation. There's an extra 3U row which corresponds to a 3U 19" row I have available in my studio rack. In it, I have the modules from the basic setup that I replaced by higher end modules (Temps Utile and the Feedback Static) as well as audio and MIDI interfaces. Here it is:

-- Arrandan

I'd try to aim for 3-4 voices max in a case this size - it's enough - otherwise there's not enough space for everything else you'll need...

I've got about 10 plus a bit of percussion - basically another 2 -3 modules - in something like 1000 hp and it seems about right to me...

It's so true lol 🙈

Makes me wonder if MG shouldn't have a warning label: "Modulargrid Can Be Hazardous To Your Wallet"!

Hello,

I did some more research and validation on VCV Rack and here's what I'm looking at now. BTW, Jim, your signature is completely right. If sound sources are the organs, effects the muscles and sequencers the brains, then utilities are the skeleton. It's been a very enlightening week.

For the case - you were right that a single 84HP row is much too limiting. I looked at cases and because the Mantis is currently hard to get, I found the Intellijel 7U 104HP stealth case, which is portable and has feet and some external connections. It's double the price of the Mantis, but with its metal build and lid, I like it a lot.

New version is here:

This is the basic version. I made a full version, which I'll link to at the bottom. That came out at over $6000, which is way beyond what I want to spend. So I stripped it down, mostly by removing features (some oscillators, the stereo bit) and sometimes by replacing bits by more cost effective parts (like the Droid for the Temps Utile or the chip osc + noise by a combo). That took the price down to about $2500, which is more manageable.

Top row is all utility. In this basic version, I'm using the Quadratt as the mixer. I like the idea of mixing patches with an external mixer, but on the road, I want to be able to output a single wire. I added the zeroscope for tuning and the occasional waveform check. It's much more cost-effective than a Mordax and I don't need much more. I filled it up with more utility that will always come in handy.

First 3U row has the Temps Utile, LFO, oscillators, a filter and the basic Befaco line+headphone out with cue.

Second 3U row has some randomness & and/or to take out beats at random, then clock div/mult. The Harmonaig is lots of fun - I played with it in VCV Rack. It's a keeper. The Zadar - if you can't tell: I like modules that are dedicated to one purpose, but offer lots of functionality within that scope. So I won't be adding an O&C, but I do have the FX AID (great suggestion!). Finally, a fun spring to round it off.

As for playing it, I'm looking at a hardware sequencer, preferably with pads. I mentioned Torso T-1 but it's all sold out and unavailable until August... I'm going to be using it starting April so I'm looking at an alternative. The Beatstep Pro is on my list, as is the SQ-64 and a couple of others.

So what do you think of this new setup?

The full version adds Mutable Ears+Rings, some more OSCs, filters, fx & VCAs, stereo (delay for imaging and pan for the rest) and the pretty impressive Droid with some expansions from Der Mann Mit Der Maschine. I love how versatile it is, yet dedicated to CV production and manipulation. There's an extra 3U row which corresponds to a 3U 19" row I have available in my studio rack. In it, I have the modules from the basic setup that I replaced by higher end modules (Temps Utile and the Feedback Static) as well as audio and MIDI interfaces. Here it is:

I quote from moog "the eurorack market's just not big enough" (a few years back iirc)
-- JimHowell1970

Reminds me of the derp from IBM back in the late 1950s that said that, in total, the world will really only need five or six computers. Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmno.

Such an epic video! now I'm thinking of what animal/object I want to make... maybe I can commission my friend, a papier maché wizard, to help me make something massive.

the performance at the end was just beautiful. thanks for sharing

Very nice jam and cool setup, enjoyed it and thanks for introducing the band!

All the best.

I always suggest Ornament and Crime...so many different functions to explore...when you find one you like, buy a module for it and change what you use O_C for...even better to add the Hemisphere firmware

Further changes.

Added Duatt. Added clock divider. Added USB power source should i want to travel with some small USB powered keyboard.

Purchased Knit module. So, 3 U sections are all purchased except Batumi and Veils.

1 U units purchased are everything but Milky Way, clock divider, duatt and USB power.

To reiterate, likely to use 0-CTRL with this and DAW sequencer / MIDI keyboards.

This case will live in immediate proximity to Erica Synths DB-01 ( which as limited patching ) as well as Moog's Matriarch, DFAM and SubH.

not anxiety - more like oh there's a part of the rack that's unusable... that was a waste of money, wasn't it - lucky the OP came here before buying and can hopefully be guided away from them...

dunno - but if you look at the product page you can see who submitted it - maybe you could DM them? they probably have a good idea

Who makes this mixer?

Oh Garfield, you are always just the nicest and most thoughtful person. Thank you for watching.

or batumi, branches, zadar

or tides, a matrix mixer (doepfer, 4ms vcam, a n other), fx aid xl

or stages, 3mia, 3vca

or beads, rings, pamelas new workout

basically any combination of sound modifiers, modulation and utilities

see the formula in my signature - it's a rough guide to building a balanced modular

I'd probably not add more than 1 or 2 more sound sources - possibly tides and rings - tides can double as a modulation source and rings as a sound modifier - otherwise you won't have space for the more interesting modules that you'll need to support them...

Jim's suggestion is good! Another take :
1. A delay/reverb. FX Aid seems good!
2. Skis -- 2 decay envelopes and 2 VCAs
3. Tetrapad -- for some hands on modulation
OR
3. Some clocked LFOs. Pamela's New Workout is a good and flexible option.

You're very short on modulation and utilities. Also, if you are flying solo with this, I think you need another voice for the bassline.

EDIT : Peaks, or one of its clones, covers a lot of these bases - LFO, envelopes, bassline -- but not all at the same time. Since I got mine, it has basically been an AD envelope the whole time.

EDITED Feb 24th 2022, 08:25

1) you're right that opening up into the pedal space is cheaper and 2) there's a ton more variety available in that space (both of which are interesting facts, I wonder why that is).
-- troux

there are loads more guitarists in the world than modular synthesists...
market bigger, production runs potentially bigger... cheap pedals are made from cheap components - thin metal or plastic enclosures etc etc circuits are often incredibly simple and small...
interesting/innovative pedals from boutique manufacturers are in the same ball park as modules -
as are rare out of production cool pedals - some can get very expensive - moogerfoogers, lovetone, klon etc etc

maths, veils, kinks

✌️

No magic smoke.

New to modular. Already happy with it, as the Queen, Metro and Circadian Rhythms do what they say on the package. Deckards is a strange beast to me as a newbie, but I can at least make it do Blade Runner or Chernobyl sounds.

What utility modules am I missing? (I'm thinking of adding a uVCA or 2.)
If you could propose 3 modules (as a path/theme) to begin a second bruterack, what would they be?

Rack:

Thanks @Lugia, and that's a great suggestion. I've got another rack I can sit next to this that adds some more effects, but 1) you're right that opening up into the pedal space is cheaper and 2) there's a ton more variety available in that space (both of which are interesting facts, I wonder why that is). For the moment I've really been enjoying keeping things focused, one rack designed for a purpose and feel I've learned a lot that way, but down the road I very well may incorporate some pedals and see what I can learn from that too!

So my rack is built up to support making music with my woodwind controller, enjoy my latest:

Feel free to ask any questions!

Hi Funbun,

Wow another album, that's fantastic! As the music is fantastic too. Is this just me or is your music every year seriously increasing of quality? Sounds to me that your AE rack experience is increasing a lot and you provide us here with some real serious stuff. I know what I am going to do tonight... listening to your fantastic album!

Thank you very much for sharing that with us and kind regards, Garfield.

Hey Fred,

Ha, ha, that's a great video and a cool octopus! :-D Great atmosphere and nice experimental music, lovely stuff.

Nicely done, very creative idea and thanks a lot for sharing this with us. Kind regards, Garfield.

yeah - someone else going "go on, go on, spend money"... works wonders!

hahahahahaha...

all those 2hp modules next to each other gave me
A N X I E T Y

That makes a lot of sense, especially hearing someone else say it! The infinite options boggle my brain sometimes haha. Will likely be moving down that road soon - thanks!

Have you emailed 2hp?
They are normally very helpful info@twohp.com

It's worth mentioning for posterity and because we here love chaos, that the Batumi echoey firmware implements what is called "Verhulst's logistics map" . Since Batumi vanilla is just regular LFO this may not be obvious but it is a pretty useful implemtation such that you can have the four generators running independent or phased versions of the chaos and will have corresponding frequency synced sin and square waves not to mention self modulating possibilities for frequency modulation of each generator. 😎

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/TriParMix--electro-harmonix-tri-parallel-mixer
-- Lugia

that looks cool - is it me or would it have made more sense for the sends and returns to be the other way round though??? ie send/return instead of return/send...

re: the case dilemma - I'd buy a second mantis - then you have space for all the modules that you already have and for the utilities that you need: more vcas especially - and then the 258t and blades may turn out to be a really useful second voice... (selling the verbos CO should easily fund both a used mantis and veils for example) if you arrange the modules well for your workflow then there'll be no need to swap things around and you can have a performance case and a studio only case - work out how to arrange them and it'll be easy to just pulll out the performance case whenever you want it (don't use the brackets though - otherwise you'll never move them!)

@Lugia - hehhe yeah I know what you mean... it's a pity they didn't see the coming of the b-company storm - and dump all their old 5u modules into eurorack at a reasonable price - like buchla with tiptop - but and I quote from moog "the eurorack market's just not big enough" (a few years back iirc) - you can see what they mean, to some extent - the last run of sub37s was 1500 units if I remember correctly from their instagram feed... and that's a synth that's been around a few years... so they tend to want products that sell in the 10K+ unit range rather than the 1-2k+ unit range - shame, really, but I think the boat's passed - unless they can find someone like tiptop or malekko (who did the roland modules) to do the work and just take the cash for designing and verifying...

they even have the moogerfoogers and cp251 that would be relatively easy to convert to eurorack as well as the system 55 etc modules...

nb - the manhattan analogue cp3 is now called the DTM - moog's lawyers wrote them a cease and desist...

-- JimHowell1970

Might be nice if one could actually get a Moog-branded CP3...or anything else modular that's not a take-it-or-leave-it prebuild-only reissue.

Pretty...uh, well, I would say it's kickin' but you can hardly say that about a drone, right?

Man...I wish this build had an external pedal I/O on it. You could take this even further without a buttload of $$$ by snagging a bunch of the stranger/more interesting Chinese stompboxes. Normally, you would just use a pedal I/O...but it might also be interesting to feed the whole thing into an array of 'em. To that, you might want to see THIS: https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/TriParMix--electro-harmonix-tri-parallel-mixer I've had one for a while now, and it's awesome...three parallel I/Os, controls for send and return levels, phase flip, and a "tilt"-type tone control. Takes a hot minute to wrap your head around it, but once you're there, damn...and with a bucketful of Chinese stompers, it's downright jaw-dropping.

Hello,

I purchased a 2hp Play module with the intent of making it a drum sampler. The problem, however, is that I cannot get the module to play any clip from beginning to end. I've tried all combinations of fade and gate options, but nothing seems to work. Does anyone have some advice on getting the files formatted properly and the module configured properly?

Hey all, I missed that these responses happened initially, thanks so much for putting thought into this! I actually responded to this thread a couple of weeks ago but deleted it because it was an unfocused 3am ramble haha. I've put a lot more work in over the past few months so I have some more experience to go off of and a solid collection of modules too. Still scratching my head over the layout though. Here's a draft for discussion:

The first two rows here are the main draft of the Mantis that I basically already have / am planning (draft keeps changing, these are the broad strokes through). Currently I'm swapping out the STMix / Befaco Out for the OPTX depending on whether I'm playing out or at home. The third row is stuff I'd be interested in shoehorning if space allowed (already have the Neb and the Buchla Quad) and the fourth row is stuff I already have but will likely sell.

I'm trying to decide between: 1) Sticking to the Mantis; 2) Getting a slightly bigger case to shoehorn the few extra modules my current setup seems to want; or 3) Getting a second Mantis to have a "studio" case and a "performance" case, which would give me some space to grow into. There aren't any wrong options there, just more expensive options haha.

A few design notes I'm thinking about: Lugia, that draft you put together was really helpful! I picked up the A-138s and it's quickly become a favorite utility; and I think the points about the Verbos were spot on. This draft is missing some of the utilities (lighter on VCAs, less the Frap 321, less the Quadrax), but includes some things I've ended up using a lot (Pique for modulation cv, a matrix mixer for feedback patching, Mutes for controlling that feedback patching and a sequential switch). I have the Buchla FG, which is basically a Quadrax plus expander, but I need to spend more time with it -- so far I've had fun with it but haven't really accomplished anything musically relevant, which is why the Quadrax isn't currently included in the main draft. Ended up with an Entropy over the Nano Rand because of how obnoxious the light is on the Nano, but also because I found that S+H and noise were by far my most-used functions on the Nano and the Entropy worked to fill the awkward 3-hp hole left by the Salmple. I ended up liking the overall sound and functionality of the Dipole much better than Blades (though Blades has a fantastic distortion stage) and fell in love with the sound and functionality of the ZPO, so am planning to go with it over the 258t (although the Buchla obviously sounds amazing too). Re: the Squid Salmple, it's just amazing and the current backbone of my workflow -- I love it to pieces and wouldn't trade it for a Bitbox or external sampler, though I have been curious about the Assimil8or because of its similarity to Squid (with mostly expanded functionality).

Welcoming any further feedback and I now where to look for notifications now!

EDITED Feb 23rd 2022, 22:30

Setting the stereo mixer and zeroscope aside for the moment. I went back through you notes where you mentioned a CP3. I didn't know what that was which may be the reason I forgot about it. Now it starts to make sense. I pulled Plaits and put back in the Hats module and the Manhattan Analogue CP3.

Is this more in the direction of your guidance?

Yes, Dan

use the cp3 to mix the percussion - you can get a nice bit of grit from the cp3... then you can send too a mono filter...

nb - the manhattan analogue cp3 is now called the DTM - moog's lawyers wrote them a cease and desist...

I'm so sorry, for some reason it doesn't pick up the two modules (Hats, CP3). I'm going to try to send a patch image next

Setting the stereo mixer and zeroscope aside for the moment. I went back through you notes where you mentioned a CP3. I didn't know what that was which may be the reason I forgot about it. Now it starts to make sense. I pulled Plaits and put back in the Hats module and the Manhattan Analogue CP3.

Is this more in the direction of your guidance?

Dan

kind of looking better

not convinced you need more stereo mixers unless the mixer has panning for mono inputs, which could be on a knob/trimmer and set and forget - for example pan hats slightly to the left or right to simulate someone playing or listening to a drum kit, otherwise you just end up with LCR mixing, which is fine... but not necessarily what you want/need all the time - or an auto panner, either patched from basic building blocks (an lfo, a mult, an inverter and a couple of vca channels) - or a dedicated module - I'd use the patching method if I wanted it as I don't really use auto panning - except for delays and the delay handles that for me...

NB mostly I just use centred mono percussion... which also means I only need a mono filter - if I want to filter percussion - before possibly sending to a mono->stereo reverb

plaits is great - but I can't imagine using a smaller version that the real thing... I'd've stuck to the 2hp hats - or found something else 4hp or under just to do hats - I think plaits is also adding too much in too small a space - it points towards too many voices in too small a space (for me at least)... a simple percussion kit (peaks and hats), sto, dixie and elements (4 voices) is pushing it in this size case imo - but adding plaits, kind of pushes it more out towards 5, which is definitely too much because there's too little in the way of support modules...

but do remember - I'm only giving advice and saying what I'd do and how I think - it's not prescriptive and at the end of the day you have to do what you want and learn by your own mistakes...

when they meet the rules:

https://www.modulargrid.net/e/forum/posts/index/801

I've done some more work. Let's see if I can summarize it.

Removed Synthrotek VCO and Hat, replaced with KNIT a 4 hp clone of Plaits which I love; has nice percussive timbres as well as other ambient sounds (it goes where the open spot is, I have tried pasting the url twice and each time this module is missing...some kind of glitch I imagine. Use Peaks for Kick and Snare, or for it's LFO or Env as I wish.

I removed zeroscope (will use ES-9) replaced with a stereo mixer. Can I use Mosaic as a sub-mixer for drums processing? I don't know if it's buffered, and don't know if it needs to be. Thoughts?

I removed Rosie :( She can go in my next case :), added a dvca with lin/exp ability and moved it next to my Quad linear VCA.

I removed Synthrotek ADSR and replaced with Zadar (I think this is an amazing EG).

I removed QPAS and added Filter 8 by Joranalogue (more ladder filters but great sound), and added a gutsy SVF by Zlob.

As always, I look forward to your feedback.

All the best, Dan