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honestly? i am not sharing my rack because i don't want to waste time discussing every single choice I have made so far.

PS no idea what you mean by "edge/threshold" - unless you mean a comapator or envelope follower!

-- JimHowell1970

you didn't even have the time to check on google what an edge/threshold module is, i can imagine how deeply a whole rack would be analysed.

Besides I have already shared half of my rack in a former thread where the answers all ended up being like "hey dude, everybody has his own vision, i can't suggest you any module for your rack since we have different opinions, tastes and workflows, what works for me could not work for you, and vice versa".

Seriously, wouldn't have been easier to answer the question on the first post? straight and easy.

I only needed a few modules to look at for inspiration, or a few suggestions i could use to narrow down my own researches on the modular grid database, but at this point, accounting all time I would need to type my replies (I am not even a native speaker) maybe I better check again the whole database by myself without any suggestion.

anyway, thanks everybody for the time you used to reply on this thread, have a merry christmas / winter break.

EDITED Dec 25th 2023, 01:06

In the video you unplug the cable from output A (working) and plug it into input B (shouldnt output anything, so also working as expected)

the arrow from input A to input B means the input is normalised from input A, it doesnt mean its the associated output for A

plugging the cable into input b breaks the normalisation, so the signal going into input a wont be passed through to input b

then you plug the first ochd signal into output A and ... yeah that makes the module work weird. its not supposed to be plugged in there.

it isnt two pairs of in/out... inputs are at the top, outputs are at the bottom (indicated by the dark ring around the socket)

That is why it isn't producing an output/behaving as you expect.

always check which are the inputs and outputs. not all modules can handle incorrect patching... it might be breaking your modules or producing weird behaviour

Merry Christmas

EDITED Dec 25th 2023, 00:58

Humdrum:
Yes, I have reached out to Klavis, and i dont need to prove myself to anyone on this forum. This place is obviously toxic. I am simply letting others know about my experience. Take it or leave it, but denying someones experience based on you person perseption is gaslighting. Super not cool. This isnt the only busted module im dealing with at the moment but i wont get imto that cause im sure noone here will belive me anyway. I wont take up any more time on your forum. Here is a video of the issue. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1mNvoETjin7nBAN_JE1X5QiPtYTPpy2NL/view?usp=drivesdk

Stop putting words in my mouth.
I'm not deny anything, and I see you like the word gaslighting, cool.
As I said I think that you have been very unlucky, and maybe exaggerating things out of frustration, (you diss Klavis and Mutable Instruments, 2 of the most respected brands in the eurorack format, and for a reason, with unparallel support and quality)
The fact that you had issues with some modules doesn't make the brand horrible and low quality.
If a module is defective or doesn't suit your needs you have warranty and can send it back to the reseller or shop.
I think the best solution is to contact Klavis, and link the video of your issues to them. You said that you already contacted Klavis. What's the response? I Hope you can resolve the issue

EDITED Dec 25th 2023, 07:25

EDITED Dec 24th 2023, 22:02

at this point id be trying any new modules i got on someone else's system first.

I believe your experience completely but weird stuff can happen and your module failure rate (for whatever reason) is bonkers. Im really sorry that youve felt attacked by folks. i think this is just an interesting problem and people are inclined to try and help, not because we think you are stupid. none of us can tell what your past experience has been but it seems like its been frustrating as hell.

EDITED Dec 25th 2023, 07:22

It is obvious to me Klavis is just another low quality Eurorack company who cares little about the quality of their products. 

I strongly disagree.
I have some Klavis modules in my system, they are all good and works as it should.
Very solid built, skiff friendly, they have clean good panel and ergonomic, and are priced well.
Caltrans: is my main tool for tonal stuff and to keep different Oscillators in tune, no problem since day 1, it works perfect.
Mixwitch: again, super clever, deep and useful module, never had any problem.
So, I think that you have been very unlucky...
I can understand the frustration when a piece of gear does not work as expected, but ranting on a Forum and bash a well reputable manufacturer won't solve your issues, nor change the perception of other happy customers.
Eric from Klavis is helpful and for sure cares about his products, have you tried to reach him via mail to explain your module's issue?

OP has left Modulargrid

EDITED Dec 25th 2023, 08:41

I've got a Rings as well which is better as a main voice but its nice to have the 2hp Pluck & Bell too.
-- wishbonebrewery

I picked up a disting ex and it has a rings implementation. There are so many things on that thing it's difficult to use :). but... Ill check that out.

I've got a Rings as well which is better as a main voice but its nice to have the 2hp Pluck & Bell too.

Good stuff.
You could always get the 2hp Bell.
I do find both my Pluck and Bell rather hard to tune with the small knobs.
One thing you can do with the Bell is to throw its some modulation to the Model input and make a nice Ambient background texture into a delay and reverb.
-- wishbonebrewery

Thanks. Yeah so far I like the 2hp stuff but wish it came in a not 2hp! I have a hard time getting into there once I have a few cv plugged in. I need to go rearrange my rack so there is more space. BUT then I am limited by how deep they are.

I like using the different timing for the trigger and now change. if you set it right you can get a nice glis going on.

I will take a look at the bell. I was just thinking I need a nice bell this morning.

Something nice you can do with the Pluck is to trigger it with slower triggers than the triggers that guide your pitch so the notes change while the decay is still ringing out.

EDITED Dec 25th 2023, 07:22

Good stuff.
You could always get the 2hp Bell.
I do find both my Pluck and Bell rather hard to tune with the small knobs.
One thing you can do with the Bell is to throw its some modulation to the Model input and make a nice Ambient background texture into a delay and reverb.

I am really a fan of the 2hp Pluck. I spent a few hours messing around with it yesterday before I added added anything else to this arrangement. it's surprising to me that something in such a small form factor can be so diverse.

What else do you think pairs well with the Pluck? What else have you used today would feel is shoes?

Lovely video with good chunks of info! Thank you for sharing! :)

Not sure if this fits the bill, but ALM's MFX is 6hp and the compressor mode offers normal as well as sidechain options.

Across the industry I have experienced a +30% failure rate of Eurorack modules. This is unacceptable. These companies should be held responsible for their horrible, low quality production practices.
-- Humdrum

30% failure rate?!? I've not had a single module fail. Is the power in your rack suitable? Seems there might be something else going on.

-- farkas

I wouldn't go so far as not having had a single module fail - I've had 1 or 2 go - but that's out of a hundred over 7-8 years...

either the OP is incredibly unlucky or there is something causing the problems... quite possibly power as @farkas suggests!

as one of those responsible for championing utilities without going into a lot of detail as to why or how they are so useful there is method behind this "madness": promoting independant research - it's much more productive in the long term than spoonfeeding...

as for a definition of "utility" - simple modules that provide simple functions for multiplying, merging, derivation and modifying electical signals - not envelope/function generators or LFOs - they're modulation sources nor effects modules (sound modifiers) - envelope followers are utilities, waveshapers are imo borderline between being sound modifiers and utilities - I'd also class interfaces of any kind as utilities

in the formula in my signature lots of modules are in multiple categories - Maths is both a modulation source and an utility depending on how it's used/patched... personally I'd err towards modulation source - as that's how I generally use it - or don't really fit - sequencers are a good example... but might fit in as modulation sources or sound sources, depending on how fast they are clocked

I tend to categorise by primary intent

Across the industry I have experienced a +30% failure rate of Eurorack modules. This is unacceptable. These companies should be held responsible for their horrible, low quality production practices.
-- Humdrum

30% failure rate?!? I've not had a single module fail. Is the power in your rack suitable? Seems there might be something else going on.

May I make a suggestion?

If you don't want people to see your rack as it is, make a copy of it, edit out the things you want to be private then make this copy Public so we can all see.

Whilst I can't see what the hell anyone would actually want to hide in terms of the modules that are in their rack - I do kind of agree with this...

Here are my racks (not 100% up to date - but close enough)

a balanced modular tends towards this:

sound sources < sound modifiers < modulation sources < utilities
-- JimHowell1970

depending how you count these, I would say my planned rack is not too far from your proportion, depending on how you would count a PAM or a O&C or a Threshold/Edge or many other modules with multiple functions, maybe i should browse the utilities section again and see if i find inspiration there.

It's quite a fluid formula - and open to interpretation - is tides a sound source or a modulation siurce? is a self-oscillating resonant filter a sound source or a sound modifier? I'd usually group things by primary intent within the confines of the rack...

Not all modules are meant to fit in - it's not a comprehensive theory of everything, it's a suggestion of a way to think in order to get the most versatility in patching in a modular for the least expense (& it scales incredibly well - from the smallest rack to Vince Clark proportions) and particularly to steer people away from just buying sound sources and modifiers - there are newbies who don't want to buy mixers as they think they are a waste of money, until of course they work out that they need one or more to get the most out of the expensive shiny modules that don't interact without them...

Pams and O&C & distings - and similar modules don't really fit - at least until in some cases the user has settled on a primary intent for the module - say using O&C as a quad

I'm not a big fan of multi-function modules... I only really have one - a disting mk4 (ok 2, I have a pams as well) - and I only really use it for one thing - tape delay (although if I desperately needed something else that it can do I would use it for that) - I prefer, especially with utiltiies - single function modules or small collections of functions that are all available at once - kinks, samara etc

I really think the best use for modules such as disting and O&C is to determine which modules you really need - so if you always use the O&C as a quad quantizer, buy a quad quantizer and use O&C for something else, and repeat...

If this is a planned rack (as opposed to a physically owned rack), as you state above, SERIOUSLY, the best thing you can do is share it... it will massively help us help you... don't be embarrased that it might be a pile of unusable crap or that you are spending thousands on a monosynth or that it's too big/small or whatever... the single worst thing you can do is not to share it...
there are people here (myself included) who have years & years of experience helping newbies design workable modular synthesizers - taking into account many many factors and many different styles of music - and we do it for free!!!

A picture paints a thousand words, as they say!!! - and the url of your public rack paints a thousand pictures

maybe some crazy utility module at 4/6 hp with a reasonable amount of no-nonsense trig ins, cv outs and vcas, or potentially even bigger if it also brings a 2 channel audio mixer might do the trick of adding more potential automations

-- Dan_ogq

this really sounds like too much in too small a space to be ergonomically pleasing - ie playable, ie no fun...

PS no idea what you mean by "edge/threshold" - unless you mean a comapator or envelope follower!

OP has left Modulargrid

EDITED Dec 25th 2023, 08:41

If you don't want people to see your rack as it is, make a copy of it, edit out the things you want to be private then make this copy Public so we can all see.
-- wishbonebrewery

+1

We can only make useful suggestions by seeing things concretely.
This is one of the advantages of ModularGrid.
Everything else is literature...

May I make a suggestion?

If you don't want people to see your rack as it is, make a copy of it, edit out the things you want to be private then make this copy Public so we can all see.

All my racks are Public, they may not be perfect for everyone but I do enjoy playing with them. Currently I will run out of Patch cables before I use up all my inputs and outputs and most patches will only ever use a fraction of the total amount of modules. I tend to set up the basics then leave it for a while and slowly introduce movement and options from other utilities.

Cheers

a balanced modular tends towards this:

sound sources < sound modifiers < modulation sources < utilities
-- JimHowell1970

depending how you count these, I would say my planned rack is not too far from your proportion, depending on how you would count a PAM or a O&C or a Threshold/Edge or many other modules with multiple functions, maybe i should browse the utilities section again and see if i find inspiration there. maybe some crazy utility module at 4/6 hp with a reasonable amount of no-nonsense trig ins, cv outs and vcas, or potentially even bigger if it also brings a 2 channel audio mixer might do the trick of adding more potential automations

EDITED Dec 24th 2023, 08:08

i don't think knowing I have that particular module would be relevant to the question, signals are signals no matter where they come from.

it's not about particular modules - it's about balance

for all we know you may have mostly sound sources and sound modifiers and hardly any modulation sources or utilities, you may or you may have adequate modulation sources and not enough utilities... seeing your rack really helps in that regard - I've seen and helped hundreds of people with their racks, over years - but I kind of need to get an overview of what's in the rack in order to give advice... it's a massive aid to thought...

a balanced modular tends towards this:

sound sources < sound modifiers < modulation sources < utilities

& most people at least in the early stages of their modular (the first few years) tend to have very few utilities

the solution for you rack may be remove a couple of vcos and an effect and add more utilties - or add a row and fill it with utilities... but it's impossible to tell without actually seeing it - imo any advice you get without us seeing your rack will be spurious at best

the reasoning is quite straightforward, patch cables go from input to output hence an optimised system should ideally have the same number of these, no matter which modules are included.
I have checked my system and there are 90ish inputs and 60ish outputs, and as because the audio signals already converge into one stereo/mono output (more or less), what's left out is just unused cv inputs (plus maybe one or two triggers).

not all modules need to be used in any given patch and not all inputs and outputs need to be utilized...

i think this is a situation many people can relate to, but I would like to explore solutions other than just stacking and duplicating modulations... for instance rectifiers seems quite a cheap and interesting solution

most utiltities are (comparatively) inexpensive, especially if you go fo doepfer or ladik or similar manufacturers and not instruo!
attenuverters, offsets, switches and matrix mixers are more...

you may be putting undue pressure on yourself to use everything all the time - I have 4 guitars, a bass, 20+ effects pedals, 4 amplifiers, about 1500hp of modules (both audio and video), a few keyboards, some outboard etc etc and amazingly I don't use all of it all of the time - in fact I use very little of it at any one time, at least in some part because it's physically impossible - I just use what I need when I need it...

a note about the ochd: i love the idea behind this module, but i would rather have 4 only lfos but with a reset input and knobs to tweak the frequencies...
-- Dan_ogq

at last something we can agree on! at least to some extent - unsynced modulation sources are great for adding a little bit of movement to synced modulation - matrrix mixers are your friend in this...

In my opinion the ratio of inputs to outputs is not significant except perhaps in extreme cases. This can be demonstrated mathematically. Once you have even a small number of inputs and outputs the potential number of connections quickly runs into a very, very, high number.
If you have only one output (A) and two inputs (X, Y) you have three possible patches:
A-X, A-Y, and A-X and Y.

If we have two outputs (A,B) and two inputs (X, Y), we have eight possible patches:
A-X only, A-Y only, A-X and Y, B-X, B-Y, B-X and Y, A-X and B-Y, A-Y and B-X

With two outputs and three inputs I can come up with at least 26 different patches. See how fast the number is growing? Let's say we have a small system with 20 inputs and 10 outputs. There are 200 ways to place the first patch cable. Once we place that first cable we now have 199 possible options for a second cable...and so on. That setup has so many patch possibilities I can't even type out the number. It's roughly 8 with 374 zeroes after it. Even such a small system with a heavy imbalance has a mind-bogglingly huge patch potential. Your numbers are 90 inputs and 60 outputs, roughly speaking? You have 5400 options for that first patch cable, and my scientific calculator gives me an overflow error trying to compute the total number of possibilities. You aren't "missing out" if the number of ins and outs don't match. It's not important in the slightest.

My personal advice is to not worry about trying to balance out the number of ins/outs and instead to ask yourself what you think the weakest part of your system is and address that. What's the one module that would add the most utility to your system?

It can be tempting to put modules from the same company together because it looks nice when the modules match in appearance. That's what I did when I first put my rack together, and I still try and do it when it makes sense, like having similar or related modules next to each other. But what worked better for me as an overall plan was thinking in terms of work flow and function.

I have a large case, it's roughly square but I mentally divide it into two parts. The top two-thirds (roughly) is devoted to audio modules and the workflow goes left-to-right. The left side is sequencers, oscillators, and voices. Middle is envelopes, filters, reverbs, delays, and so on. My main mixer and output module are on the right side. The bottom third of the rack is VCAs, LFOs, modulation sources, and most of my utility modules. So basically the audio signal goes left-to-right across the top and middle of my rack while the modules at the bottom pertain to CV, and/or are the things I fiddle with the most often, like VCAs.

That makes me wonder how you arrange your cases; if I had a tall narrow stack like in your pic I might think more about top-to-bottom workflow rather than left-to-right, but perhaps you just arranged them like that for simplicity in modulargrid. How do you actually have your cases set up when you play? You also mentioned portability. That makes me think it might be a good idea to set up one of the Intellijel 7u cases as an all-in-one mini system so you could take just that one case if you wanted to be extra portable, and then you could arrange the other cases around the idea of expanding upon the capability of the core one.

I am looking for a silver faceplate Metron.... If anyone has any leads or wants to get rid of it, please lmk :)

Thank You

EDITED Dec 25th 2023, 07:20

Hello, I have managed to obtain quite a few modules since I started adding modules to complement my DFAM. In the beginning I just needed a way to synchronise it with my other gear but as normal with GAS the thing blew out of proportions after a while.
At the moment I'm trying to figure out a way to organize all my modules. I have a few separated cases for the modules. I made a big rack in Modular Grid so I could see all the modules and cases with one view. Below there is a list of cases in the same order as they are on the Modular Grid rack.

1x ACL 6U 104HP
2x Intellijel 7U 104HP Performance case
1x Intellijel 3U 104HP Palette case

I also have one Doepfer Low Cost 3U 86HP case for mostly storing unused modules.

I would highly appreciate any advice on how to organize everything :D I would like to keep things in somehow organized entities. For example the small Palette case could be only concentrated on the Make Noise modules. The first Performance case could be one with only high quality modules such as ACL, AJH and Cwejman. Also I would like to keep things portable so that's one reason for having so many separate cases.

Here is a link for the rack: https://cdn.modulargrid.net/img/racks/modulargrid_2431828.jpg

My main objective is to be able to create interesting rhythms and sequences for driving hypnotic techno. I might be missing an sequencer since Metropolix can in a way only sequence one sound.. at least in a way so that I have perfect control. I didn't find the unpairing of two tracks very hands on.

Sometimes I think of just getting something like a Serge or Verbos only system for making things more simple for myself.

It’s a good idea to have started with Verbos modules, Mark Verbos being an expert in Buchla's modular philosophy and technology.

This is also why a ‘hippy’ modular would, in my opinion, be closer to the Buchla format than to the Eurorack. Don Buchla was part of the counterculture of the 60s’; he has worked with the Grateful Dead...

Anyway, it's really a fun and interesting idea! Could you explain some of your choices?

I was like, "I wonder what a hippy Eurorack looks like". and then I Lol'd! Nice one.

A few of my favorite utility modules are:
LA Circuits Machinist: Sample & Hold, Track & Hold, Slew, and several noise generators (Pink, Red, White, Blue, Violet), plus it has an LFO and clock generator.

Thorn Audio VCLFO: For starters it is an extremely powerful LFO with 16 different waveforms so even if you don't use its voltage control capability it's already a great modulation source. You can control it with CV to act as a more complex modulation source or use it as a bass VCO. It's syncable, it has a built-in octave offset function, generates noise & gates, and has S&H as well. It also has a built-in VCA on its output.

ADDAC216 Sum & Difference: This is a special mixer that allows you not just to add signals together like a standard mixer but also to subtract one from another. It has an attenuverter and offset on every input. It can operate in absolute or bipolar mode and can be AC or DC coupled so you can use it for audio or CV. A single module has two channels with two inputs each. This is quite a powerful module and it is not very expensive either.

Schlappi Engineering Boundary: This module can do a lot, at first glance it is a mini version of Maths, it has fewer channels but it is smaller and less expensive. But look closer and it has a few functions which Maths does not have. It has an AD envelope which can also be cycled to act as an LFO like Maths, but it has the ability to shape the rise and fall parts of the waveform independently, which Maths cannot do. It has a variety of other functions too, VCA, ring multiplier, and a lot more.

And of course the various "many in one" like the Disting and FX Aid series, ALM Busy Circuits MFX, and various fancier DSP modules come to mind. I'm not sure it's accurate to call all of those "utility" modules but many of them can perform a huge variety of functions in a relatively small footprint and that is very handy.

Some ideas for using any VCO/LFO with soft sync to generate complex arpeggios. Detailed patch notes in the video.

Fast and safe shipping with @Romanowitch , recommended seller, thank you !

adding a handy 2 hp module we can turn the sv1b into a paraphonic synth. lovely!

My favorite utility's (yes I am a Erica Synths fanboy).

...patch cables go from input to output hence an optimised system should ideally have the same number of these, no matter which modules are included...
-- Dan_ogq

I disagree. for me an optimized system is defined by other aspects than than the relation of I/O's
- most important: can i achieve the audible results that i want?
- is it ergonomic or is there room to optimise by rearranging some modules?
- is it performable the way that i want?
- is it easy to get every module perfectly in sync without struggling with missing clock ticks?
- do i have enough headroom with my power supplies?
- is my lightning ok regardless where my rack is located?
- is there any audible result i want to achieve but not possible with modules i have?
- is it easy for me to find/grab the right patch cables?
- etc.

those are a few of my thoughts to optimize my personal rack...

-- modular01

just one more point to tick, i don't see why one should exclude or be considered more important than the other, after all, my extra point is just about adding more automations.

Conversely, I notice that my Tetrapad has 8 outputs... and no inputs.
No inputs? Nightmare! I have become the module and my fingers are the cables...

-- Sweelinck

Cheers :)

Ahh, well its not the way I look at my own system, I've never had a reason to consider any of my inputs and outputs. The OCD is not strong in this one.

For me:
Variety is key.
Spare space is good to have, I will never ask "what should I put in my remaining 4hp" ;-)
I tend to cluster modules of things I want to use together.

@Dan_ogq's remark is both interesting and unexpected. I look at my setup and, indeed, the inputs are the majority.

The winner is the Loquelic Iteritas Percido: 21 inputs vs 2 outputs! That said, the possibilities for shaping sound are immense thanks to all these inputs. And I chose this module (and this version in particular) precisely for this reason.

Conversely, I notice that my Tetrapad has 8 outputs... and no inputs.
No inputs? Nightmare! I have become the module and my fingers are the cables...

...patch cables go from input to output hence an optimised system should ideally have the same number of these, no matter which modules are included...
-- Dan_ogq

I disagree. for me an optimized system is defined by other aspects than than the relation of I/O's
- most important: can i achieve the audible results that i want?
- is it ergonomic or is there room to optimise by rearranging some modules?
- is it performable the way that i want?
- is it easy to get every module perfectly in sync without struggling with missing clock ticks?
- do i have enough headroom with my power supplies?
- is my lightning ok regardless where my rack is located?
- is there any audible result i want to achieve but not possible with modules i have?
- is it easy for me to find/grab the right patch cables?
- etc.

those are a few of my thoughts to optimize my personal rack...

I follow this tread for the latest https://modwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=4084568#p4084568

Good thing is depending on the builder you can swap out 3 for 4 on most uO_C.... so, get what's avialable and you should be able to upgrade (getting much easier thanks to the community becoming active again) once the new code comes out. There's a video on youtube showing you how.

Teensy 4 code is still in the works for Phazerville (beta is avialable). Squares and Circiles is working on 4 though. There is also new HW being developed for 4... that maybe ready early 2024... which is very exciting.

i don't think knowing I have that particular module would be relevant to the question, signals are signals no matter where they come from.

the reasoning is quite straightforward, patch cables go from input to output hence an optimised system should ideally have the same number of these, no matter which modules are included.

I have checked my system and there are 90ish inputs and 60ish outputs, and as because the audio signals already converge into one stereo/mono output (more or less), what's left out is just unused cv inputs (plus maybe one or two triggers).

i think this is a situation many people can relate to, but I would like to explore solutions other than just stacking and duplicating modulations... for instance rectifiers seems quite a cheap and interesting solution

a note about the ochd: i love the idea behind this module, but i would rather have 4 only lfos but with a reset input and knobs to tweak the frequencies...

I'm with Jim on this, lets see your rack so people can understand your question better. It reads quite abstract because of the lack of context.

If you are meaning something like the DivKid / Instruo OchD + Expander, you have loads of outs, most of those outs could be used with the following to get more out of them:
VCA's
Mixers
Passive attenuators
Attenuvertors
Half or Full Wave Rectifiers
Quantisers
Mults
Envelopes

I'm considering buying an Ornament & Crime mainly for the Quad Quantization.
From what I can see I'll have to get one with a Teensy 3.2 as the firmware for the v4 is completely different.
I literally don't understand Github etc so have no idea if the original firmware is going to catch up to the v4 Teensy.

Anyone know more?
Worth getting a v4 or stick with a v3.2??

Cheers

and what goes in racks?? ah yes, modules - what you already have WILL influence recommendations!

it's entirely possible that you have at least one, or more, module that couold be temporarily sidelined in order to fit something bigger in... but unless you share your rack we won't know...

my recommendation would be for a matrix mixer, preferably doepfer, for ergonomics reasons... and some stack cables...

another possibility might be a sequential switch...

but as far as I know you already have these...

do yourself a favour - make your rack public and copy and paste the url into the thread!!!