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My proposal has 9 jacks, 5 pots, and a switch, in 10HP. Only one pot (the crossfader) is regularly adjusted during performance. The layout should give the crossfader a generous amount of room, free of jack connections.

This proposed panel seems generous compared to many existing modules. For example the WMD ALYS has 14 jacks, 2 pots, and a switch in 6HP. What I am proposing is actually more roomy. It will be easier to use for reasons of space and because it doesn't include unnecessary features. The whole point of this thread is that I don't wish to use the three cramped modules mentioned in the OP.

Larger mixers all have features that are inapplicable to the application I have described. That is because they are not designed for cross-fading two (and only two) stereo streams. Hence they waste space. (For other applications they might be fine.)

I have already clearly said that because of my physical disabilities, I need to limit the size and weight of any rig I carry to a gig. This is hardly strange: many other performers have similar requirements (even if for different reasons). The lack of understanding here is perplexing.

OK, maybe 64 HP will be too small for the music I wish to make. Who knows? But that is also irrelevant to this thread. Because no matter what size the case, I don't wish to waste room on functions that are simply not needed.

EDITED Jun 1st 2021, 14:23

Thanks!
I'm giving Ladik a few months ;-)
By the way, Dovemans SHFT is hard to find.
Is Metabolic Devices 2Win a good alternative?

Thanks Garfield,

Yes the Hexinverter Mutant Drum modules are really good. Lots of tone shaping and cv options. More traditional 808/909 drums but good stuff. Vector is great sequencer. Super easy to quickly modify a lead and pad synth sound on the fly easily for variety. I did order a Jomox bass drum module as well as the Hexinverter Mutant Hot Glue mixer and a Tiptop audio 909 clap module. So have plenty of drum and percussion now.

One other thing, also...since these Ladiks are so small and cheap, you might even consider getting a small skiff for several of them plus a power supply (or a powered skiff) to use as a dedicated CV source/controller that you can patch at will across the entire system. That would also give you a tad more space in the build, besides being a straight-up ergonomics WIN.

The problem with making your output mixer too small is that it'll be a major PITA to use. You CAN find mixers in that 10 hp and down size that will give you stereo, but as you make the module smaller, you also eliminate the room on its boards for VCAs, autopanners, etc etc while, at the same time, giving you a very fiddly mixer with no CUE function (no room for it, remember?), no VCAs, and so on.

Again, this gets back to this "beauty case" problem. The mixer you want here DOES exist...in fact, there's a few of them...but there's no way you'll be able to jam one of those AND all of the synth's basic modules into a small skiff like the above. Or rather, you COULD...but the result will be very fiddly and annoying to use due to the tight spaces left for your fingers in amongst the knobs and cables. Personally, I would go with a larger cab and larger panels to minimize ergonomic issues than going this small, which will just maximize them.

To that? Well...not really. There are a few min/max discriminators, but pretty much nothing can track CV direction that I know of, with the exception of this Ladik module. However, there is one arithmetic module worth looking at IF you can find another 2 hp so it'll fit, and that's Mystic Circuits' ANA: https://www.modulargrid.net/e/mystic-circuits-ana

It won't read movement, but it does have some useful twists on the usual discriminator circuit in that you can not only get your minimum and maximum CV levels out, but the difference value between them as well as a multiplication function for those. It also has a very interesting variation on the typical sample-and-hold, plus a BIPOLAR squaring function that results in variant square waves. Like I said, not exactly the same thing, but more than capable of trickery that would fill the bill.

Still, it may just as well be a situation where you have to wait for Ladik to crank out some more.

EDITED Jun 1st 2021, 01:24

Well, if you want to go with open rack frames, I think there's a housing solution here that you'll dig (provided you're in the USA). I ran across a firm out of Missouri that builds serious, solid portable racks with a very shallow footprint, and I now have several pieces from them. Check this out: https://prospeakerparts.com/collections/rack-cases-carpet-covered-2f/products/procraft-10u-12-deep-equipment-rack-10-space-made-in-the-usa-w-rack-screws This could also hold a power conditioner or a tile row at 10U, but if you only want the space for 9U worth of frames, they've got that too: https://prospeakerparts.com/collections/rack-cases-carpet-covered-2f/products/procraft-9u-12-deep-equipment-rack-9-space-made-in-the-usa-with-rack-screws And there's several others that they do that are fairly Eurorack-friendly, including some snazzy angled racks for studio use.

But the back's open! Ahhh, that's easy too. They carry unmounted rack rails and both solid and vented rack panels, too! You could even go as far as mounting a 7U panel on the backside of that 10U unit and then a Eurorack frame in the bottom 3U for mounting power inputs and supplies, or even a dedicated 1/4" output pair...then just slap some blanks on the rest, and there you go! And that 12" depth is super-easy to tote, but if you go with a smaller cab, you can get into 9" depths: https://prospeakerparts.com/collections/rack-cases-carpet-covered-2f/products/procraft-6u-9-deep-equipment-rack-6-space-made-in-the-usa-with-rack-screws And in fact, there's one sitting to my immediate left right now, housing the remaining patchbays on the right side of the desk. Nice stuff!

Tony Rolando really knocked it out of the park with the Maths design, actually. The Maths is ridiculously capable as a modulation source or, since it descends from the Serge DUSG, you could even use it as an oscillator. It turns up all over the place, almost like a standard device, because it's VERY difficult to overtax it in terms of complexity...despite it being deceptively simple to use. 20 hp of lightning in a bottle!

Hi Sacquy71,

Ah another nice jam and video from you! It's nice to see those percussion modules from Hexinverter, wasn't aware of them yet! Do you like them? They sound quite good! Nice to see your Vector into action :-)

Thanks a lot for sharing this with us and kind regards, Garfield.

I need a derivator. The only one I have found is Ladik J-110 but that is out of stock.
Is there any alternative?

Superb cathedral sounds! Well done.

Hi, thanks for the tips @Mazz. I have a tiptop audio rack (a kit) that cam with the µZeus power supply and a 1000mA power adapter. But when I expand the rack to more rows, I will remove the Zeus and place a PSU behind the rack with some bus boards.

I came across the DOEPFER A-100DIY1 KIT 1 WITH DOEPFER 15V2.5 AMP TRANSFORMER, which comes with a power adaptor with 2.5A (I dont have to deal with the wall current), 2 x 22socket bus boards, and it also comes with 4 x 84HP rails! btw, the PSU delivers 1.2A, similar to the Doepfer PSU2.

Basically, to get my 2nd and 3rd row, I simply need some rack ears and Im good to go... buy modules

Nice one! I hope to try something not dissimilar.

For the sake of completeness, I will link to Martin Doudoroff's fantastic compilation of mixers. It is clear from that list that there is no solution for my simple task, likely because there is no tradition of stereo paths in Eurorack.

For any designers who might be reading, I will specify my ideal Stereo Crossfade Output Mixer. This is optimised for the least amount of contact during performance.

• Two stereo inputs (A and B), each with an attenuator (pot and CV control) and post-fader metering (LEDs).
• Two stereo outputs (main and cue):
• The first (main) output normalled to a pair of line-level outputs, with a level pot and metering.
• The second (cue) output normalled to a stereo headphone jack, with a level pot and metering.
• A cross-fader mixing the inputs to both the main output and the cue output (inverse of the main mix). Therefore, when the fader is all the way left, input A goes to main and input B to cue. When the fader is all the way right, input B goes to main and input A to cue.
• A switch for the headphone out, selecting main and cue.

My initial rack combined the WMD Axys stereo mixer with the Erica Synths Pico Out for headphones and Ladik A-541 for balanced line output. But this is cumbersome, requiring three modules in 13 HP. By contrast, the above spec can be achieved easily in 10 HP.

EDITED Jun 1st 2021, 14:08

In appreciation of the patriots who serve and protected America my jam

Really digging the Vector sequencer a game changer for my compositions can lay down pads and leads with ease now.
Still not really finding it great for drum and percussion sequencing however in spite of efforts to try. I find trigger sequencers better for that like Eloquencer, Metron and Euclidian Circles.

Thank you so far! Will change the MI Links for the Ladik I think. The Shades is hard to bring in, although I'm thinking about throwing out Pam's because its quite redundant with the Hermod. But then the hp-juggle starts out again. ;) Thank you!

I just bought two uO_C modules built by @technoprisoner ...

Everything went really fine - good communication, he got the modules shipped really fast and the modules look very good and everything is working fine - I can really recommend!

Thanks a lot!

Thanks for your insight! I had Kinks in mind too and luckily got one this week end at my local store. Bought Batumi too.
You're right about more utilities, I'll give a look at that and at the FX-Aid XL.
Thanks for your help mate.

Hi, if you're planning to fill up a 19" rack with separate rows, this is the solution that works for me, in case it helps you:
- Tiptop rack ears (two pairs) €40
- Tiptop 84HP rails (two pairs) €80
- Behringer CP1A (one) €60
You may need an extension flying bus as you fill the rows, since the CP1A provides 14 connections. Other than that it works perfectly for me at roughly €1.1 per HP.

happy to hear, thank you very much!

Somewhat attempt to the first row....

If you can, definitely get a bigger case and more utilities. Mantis case is affordable and would be an improvement over the tiny case pictured. You need VCAs, mults, attenuators, mixer, envelopes, switch and tools for modular more than you'd think. I highly recommend the combo of Mutable Instruments Links and Kinks. Perhaps add a Maths as well? Here is my recommendation

-- sacguy71

Thank you SO much for this. Really helped to get some direct pointers on what I need as far as utility. I saw a YouTube vid of a guy talking about how he felt like it was impossible to avoid getting a Maths in the process of building his first rack and I'm feeling the same about now hahah.

Also, you might reconsider that $1200 budget point...Eurorack ain't cheap.
-- Lugia

Thanks for your response, that all makes lots of sense. I should clarify that $1200 is my starting budget, and I hoped to build one module at a time from there given my current finances. My original plan was to save a solid $2000 and buy a whole rig at the synth shop in my town, but as I got more eager I started thinking $1200 was enough to begin with. Obviously I'm not too stoked on having a case and some modules waiting around until I've got enough cash to amass a real rig. Anyway, I appreciate the reminder that this is a big investment.

EDITED May 30th 2021, 23:31

Hi Anubiz,

Ah another nice midi file concert ;-) Great track and the video provides a lovely view over your very nice and large rack! Superb!

Thank you very much for sharing this with us and kind regards, Garfield.

Hi Shanewave,

Ha, ha, no that wasn't sarcastic, it was really well-meant :-)

Kind regards, Garfield.

+1 on the "bigger case". Also, you might reconsider that $1200 budget point...Eurorack ain't cheap. Plus, as this stands right now, you have no way to justify having a panel meter in that 3U skiff; builds of that sort (which many of us here discourage, actually...they're NOT apt to come out like what one sees on YouTube, which is where this idea seems to keep coming from) simply don't have space to allow a "toy module" of that sort. And I call it that because there's not really anything in that 3U build that needs metering as such...it's just there for looks, in other words, and you need function here more than eye candy. sacguy71's right on point here; a Tiptop Mantis will still be eminently portable (hell, Tiptop even sells a gig bag that's sized for it!), not a huge budgetary hit at $335 street, and provide WAAAAY more space. Granted, with that space comes the death of your $1200 max idea, but it opens you up to putting together a far more capable build that can be worked out long-term, instead of dropping the $$$ on it right off the bat.

Well, they're not white, but you can fit two of them into 8 hp: https://www.modulargrid.net/e/ladik-u-081 Also a fader, but with a lot more tricks up its sleeve.

keeping with mi shades will do this

Wow! that is fantastic @Lugia. I'm so excited by this modular stuff, I can barely sit down. It is quite the makeover you did on the original rack, but to be fair, I have never built or used a Eurorack before, so I was pretty much guessing what modules I would need.

It makes a lot of sense when you explain the integration of each module you selected, and thank you for that, otherwise I would have a hard time understanding how this new setup would work. The positioning of the modules are also very clever concidering the potential mess with patch cables. When I build a 9U rack, I will build a power grid on the far backside of the system, and it should not be a problem. I have some wood laying around.

I also like the separation of voices, modulation, and control/effects on the different rows, didnt think of it like that before. I checked around on youtube to see some examples of the Gravitational Waves and the Atom, and they sound pretty awesome. They are quite big though, but I guess you get a lot out of them in contrast to the space they take. I was a littlebit "sad" that you removed the Iteritas Alter, but then again, I guess the Atom can produce similar results and more.

As a newbie to Eurorack, there is a lot to get my head around to understand the system that you produced, and in general, and I don't really know how to respond to the setup in any meaningful way, yet. I will have to think about this for a bit, but it looks great, and it makes a lot of sense the way you describe it. I am really thankful for the thought you put into this!

My biggest problem right now, is that I can only buy one row. I need to be able to use it effectively, as a one row system, but at the same time, have the ability to expand to a second row without sitting on modules I might no longer need. I will look at the setup and the way you intended it to work, and see if I can extract some modules to begin with. I will use the one-row system together with the Moog Grandmother, and the first row should, in my opinion, extend the capabilities of the Moog, add some new effects, patch capabilities, and possibly have another voice source. I'm not really sure what kind of modules would complement the Moog the best.

Concidering that I build the racks (19" server rack style), I have no problems expanding the size in the future. I can simply build another rack right next to it, and effectively get 2*84 HP. The rack I have now can fit a little more than 12U in height. A new rack besides it could be higher. But to fill these racks would be extremely expensive, and I dont see that happening anytime soon. The first row I will buy pretty soon, within next month. The second and third row will come sometime in the end of the year perhaps, also after a lot of playing around and learning more about this.

Again, thanks a lot for your feedback. Much appreciated!

If you can, definitely get a bigger case and more utilities. Mantis case is affordable and would be an improvement over the tiny case pictured. You need VCAs, mults, attenuators, mixer, envelopes, switch and tools for modular more than you'd think. I highly recommend the combo of Mutable Instruments Links and Kinks. Perhaps add a Maths as well? Here is my recommendation

Hi everyone!

The mockup you see below is as minimal as possible, and excludes dozens of modules I've been drooling over, but I'm really eager start making sounds within my budget of ~$1200.

I'm working on an industrial/synth-rock project, so I want something chaotic but musical. This Erica VCO sates my tube fetish, and the Ultraviolence sounds like exactly what I need for chaos. The dude from Error recommends another gate sequencer for it to reign in the rhythms, which is exactly what I was thinking, so I found that cool-looking, cheap-ish Blue Lantern.

The other modules are just what I determined to be "necessary" for those three to "function" well. I put those words in quotes because they're mostly subjective in modular world, but from what I've read, you're going to have a really hard time getting any satisfaction from a modular that doesn't have at least one VCO, filter, mixer, envelope and VCA. I know this setup doesn't have a mixer or filter. Please tell me what main issues I'd have if I bought all this and set it up right now.

Thanks! Link to rack:

EDITED May 30th 2021, 18:53

My goal is to build the rack suggested by Lugia.
But I have to do it in steps.
1. I remove the buffered multi (4 HP). Now I have 14 HP free space.
2. I add Doveman SHFT (6 HP), Ladik Derivator (4 HP) and Ladik Skipper (4 HP).

3.Patching!
4. ”Shrink” Marbles, Plaits and Veils plus removing modules for making space for the rest of the suggested modules.
What do you think?

EDITED May 30th 2021, 19:54

Hi, for CV recording with Hermod I need a simple manually controllabe CV source.

I have a MI Stages, where it is possible, but i dont like the little slider too much for this purpose and i would like to switch it for a Tides.

Since im quite a noob: Which possibilities do I have to feed the hermod with hand played mod CV? Module recommendations welcome. White and 4hp (max) or 8hp would be nice to fit in. :) cheers.

€ Any other ideas to use something für that purpose? Can the Disting do something like that?

Here's my rack:

https://cdn.modulargrid.net/img/racks/modulargrid_1550211.jpg

EDITED May 30th 2021, 18:23

Maybe one of these?
https://www.modulargrid.net/e/doepfer-a-176

Hey thank you Garfield! Your words are so kind that I thought you were sarcastic haha

Could I combine a very compact voice synth like Erica voice pico with a Rings and more or less do the same things as the Elements?

« because, as we all know, empty Eurorack spaces have the ability to summon modules to fill them! Do not anger the wandering Eurorack modules! »
Haha ! Nice philosophy ! Promise, I keep it !

Well, it wasn't that long before "Atom Bomb" when much of that gear was dirt-cheap. It was around that time (1993-ish) that I got my TR-909 that I had for years for a mere $700 from Daddy's Junky Music, and not long before that when I snagged my Jupiter-6 for $750.

Yes, synth shopping used to be fun! You didn't feel like someone was sneaking around behind you, trying to snag one of your kidneys for payment!

I had a long look at this, and came up with a variation on it that seems to do a better job at sound design overall. No percussion modules...sort of...

See, the problem is that when you try and build tons of functions into a small build like this, you wind up shortchanging ALL of those functions as a result. So what I did here is to kick this back to being ONLY the synth. With a few surprises...

Top row: Voicing, obviously. The dual input preamp is at the left end, with a pair of envelope followers below this in the middle row. The single VCO was replaced by Void's Gravitational Waves, which gives you a complex oscillator plus a ring modulator. Then, to process the Gravitational Waves, I added an Intellijel uFold after the 4-in 2hp mixer, which will allow for even more complex timbral behavior out of that dual VCO. Then this can be submixed again via the dual inputs on the Ripples VCF, making it possible to combine both the wavefolded AND clean outputs. After that, an Elements clone from Antumbra...which is the "sort of". Since you can use all sorts of physical models as "activators", and since you have mallet models for this, the Atom can then give you two channels of all sorts of bonks and thumps, PLUS it gets its own stereo VCF (Bastl's wild new dual-peak stereo VCF, the Ikarie). But if you want even MORE bonks and thumps, I put in a Make Noise LxD after the Mordax, so you can process its outputs through those lowpass gates.

Middle row: Mostly modulation. First are the envelope followers for your input channels, which allow you to extract dynamics from inputted signals and then output them as modulation CVs. Links, then a Doepfer noise/sample and hold module as both of those things were missing from the original version. I also put in a dual slew limiter in 4 hp (Ladik) which doubles the job of the Joranalogue while halving the space! Plus, you get selectable slewing for CV up-motion, down-motion, or all motion. Then the Clep, Stages, Maths, and Shades...followed by a Happy Nerding 3xVCA to give you some dedicated VCAs for modulation use. After this, a Quadrax/Qx setup gives you four loopable 2-stage (or 3-stage, depending on the control input and mode settings) envelopes.

Bottom row: Control. The little white thing is a Konstant Labs PWRchekr, which lets you have visual feedback on your DC rails. Then the MIDI interface was replaced with Expert Sleepers FH-1, which can work as an interface for the DAW's MIDI, or you can just as easily connect any class-compliant USB MIDI controller to this. Tempi got added because it has some special interconnectivity with the Rene, allowing you to be able to toss much of the previous clock gen/modifiers as a result. After that, I put in a mono-in, stereo-out digital effect specifically set up to work with the AUX setup on the Toppobrillo Stereomix2. That mixer gives you VCA control over levels, autopanning, VCA over AUX sends, mutes per channel, a CUE bus, headphones, and a full AUX setup with a mono main send and stereo return. I then kept the Befaco OUT as it not only has your ganged stereo output control, but it also makes the switch from CUE to output a tad easier if you patch the Stereomix's CUE out to the CUE in on the Befaco.

So...uh...where are all the VCAs for the audio? In the mixer, that's where. Also, everything was rearranged for ergonomics, especially the move of all of the hands-on controller stuff to the bottom row. And where's the power supplies? They're in the rack itself, as I opted to rework this for a powered cab such as the Doepfer LC9 or, better still, one of Case From Lake's portable 3 x 84 cabs. If you can go with an INTERNAL supply, you do three things...

1) You open up 12 hp of space
2) You can get a beefier supply than the uZeus
3) You avoid having power circuitry anywhere near the audio path, which is something you definitely DON'T want! Not to mention, those little uZeuses can get HOT, and internals can be overspecced to the point where they don't do that. The Doepfer LCs have their hefty, toroid-equipped ones, and Case From Lake is pretty much the Burger King of Eurorack cabs: special orders don't upset 'em, so you can have it YOUR way!

Now, one thing that made this rework kind of...ah...dicey was the size. A really good sound design rig needs quite a bit more of that, which again gets back to Case From Lake and their ability to resize from their basic designs. Instead of 84 hp for a width, you could go to 3 x 104...or even 3 x 120 or 3 x 126! They do that. If this build were allowed to sprawl out more, it would then have the space to be taken up to a serious sound-design level. This build is good...but if more space could make it BETTER, well...

@Lugia,

That is way cool! I really like Surgeon's approach. Another electronic artist that really influenced me was Fluke ya know the band with the song Atom Bomb and a lot of songs from the Matrix soundtrack of movies? I don't know what Fluke used but a lot of kick, hi hats and bass lines. Sadly they never used any modular or eurorack that I am aware of. A live show of them:

Now to reproduce these synths in modular is very expensive. Looks like a lot of Roland vintage synths and drum machines.

I tried to replace the X-pan with something useful. I also replaced the 2HP MIDI to the MIDI Thing by Befaco.

Instead of the X-pan I included another envelope generator (FC system-X), and a MI Links utility module for better patch capabilities. For the final stereo output I thout of using the 2HP VCA...

In this setup I also swapped Intellijel Quad VCA to the new Veil

Also keep in mind that the Penrose will quantize ANY incoming voltages, just like any other quantizer. You could just as easily input a fixed offset voltage, controlled by a knob, and you'd be able to "play" the offset, which is useful for setting up drones and being able to then transpose those with the offset knob. But the Penrose's ability to user-define scales means that your knob-twists will ONLY fall into the designated pitched programmed into the quantizer.

This ability to "force tuning" is one thing that makes quantizers...especially scale-definable ones...super-useful for generative work.

Well, we were all sort of dazed and frazzly as this was the "morning" (ie: around noon) after the event, which had run to just before dawn. But I hit breakfast at a Denny's (in Kalamazoo) with him and several other DJs plus one of the promoters. He's a great guy, very low-key, but DEEP into the music. Also, this was a hot minute ago...like, say, 1998-ish. Interesting breakfast conversation that kept drifting from the post-WWII electronic scene to the present day; Surgeon definitely had caught the connection between the two, and the discussion kept getting a tad mind-blowing for some of the DJs (albeit NONE of the Detroit guys...they've known about that for a loooooong time!).

Hey Jingo,

Thank you :-) Yes, the Vector is great, can't live without it any more ;-)

Kind regards, Garfield.

Hey Jingo,

You are back ;-) Great to hear from you again and straight away you come with a fun track. At least to me it sounds like you had a lot of fun with the Sarajevo. Sounds indeed (very) good that BBD module!

Much better, to be honest, than my Doepfer A-188-1 BBD Module (1024 stages). I feel that module is a bit difficult to... to what exactly? To understand? Or to get it under control? I don't know exactly what my issue is with it, I mean I can get it work but getting as nice results as you do, I didn't manage that yet. I think I need to dive into that one just one more time to see if I can get similar results :-)

Great track and thank you very much for sharing this with us. Kind regards, Garfield.

Hi Shanewave,

Wow, your first video, and your first track here as well? What a fantastic starter you got here for us! :-)

Amazing sound, especially in the beginning it sounds almost like a church organ!

Yeah... Marbles is still on my wish list too. I am glad you enjoy it. Thank you very much for sharing this and keep up to good work. I hope to seeing and especially hearing from you soon, kind regards, Garfield.

Hi Mowse,

Oh wow, this is great! Lovely done jam. It's amazing that without a plan or something you are able to come up with something fantastic like this :-)

I have that with Italian cities, I leave the hotel without any plan, any preparation, other than after the stroll "I want to end up in a restaurant". Just wander about and let myself surprise by the atmosphere the city breaths out and by a kind of built-in radar I then find the most fantastic Italian restaurants and enjoy my food :-)

A bit in that way, your modular synth way, you are ending up with a great jam ;-) Thanks a lot for let us join this great experience and kind regards, Garfield.

Qu-bit surface is similar too. WMD crucible is also a kind of physical modelling but for more cymbal-like sounds.

Yes I guess that would be fine, but maybe with the X-pan, I would spare some vcas? I have to start with the upper row, and I only have the new veil in that row (if I follow your suggestion, which I probably will). Additionally I do not have a proper output module on the upper row to begin with, and I planned on using the X-pan as a stereo output module to start with, and use the vcas available to control the volume... I'd rather avoid buying an output module twice.

I'll think about it for a bit... and post a revised plan for the upper row only in the thread