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As for a good source of loopable ADs in a smaller space, have a look at the Intellijel Quadra. Four envelopes, linear or exponential curve, either AD, AR or looping. And as far as VCAs in a tight space go, see what Happy Nerding has with their 3x VCA...it's quite a nifty thing, with three DC-coupled VCAs with some switch-configurable mixing abilities. And with that at 6 hp and 12 for the Quadra, you've still got 2 hp to jam something else in, so...bonus!
Thanks for the advice. I thought between The Mod1, Maths and the Pittsburgh Envelope I probably had envelope modulation covered. Any AD-Type envelopes and linear VCA's you could recommend that might fit my 20hp of the Cmp1? Also I was not aware that Braids was discontinued as I had just ordered one that was in stock but i see that on the Mutable site it is listed as discontinued. I love the sounds that it produces and was specific interested in its FM, Pluck and Bell type sounds, some of my favorites. The patchable Blofeld is kinda the vibe i was going for (I have one btw). So far i'm not real impressed with the 2HP stuff as the delay and comb filter get kinda noisy when turning the pots (not in a good way).
Well, take note of the fact that you've overrun by 1 hp, but since that's with the Clouds and the Clouds is discontinued, that gives some more room. Now, if you also tossed the Erica module, that would open up a few more hp, enough to drop a Morphagene in...which is sort of Clouds-ish, but way more hands-on, control-wise. But then, there's another problem in that the 104 Moog case doesn't have the line-out that the Mother32 case itself does, so you're going to have to add an output module...which kills the Morphagene, space-wise. Hmmmmmm...
Ah! The SDS Reflex. 16 hp, all of the bells and whistles of the Clouds and more besides, and THAT will give you 4 hp for an output module, in stereo even. Maybe look at Happy Nerding's Isolator...transformer-isolated and balanced stereo outs with a ganged stereo level control. Nice...and a good combo with the Reflex. Should work just fine!
Yeah, losing the CMP-1 isn't that big a deal, I shouldn't think. That's one of those functions which, unless you're building a cab for drum modules, just doesn't click in all that well. May as well lose the Braids, since it's out of production and having two NW1s is going to be pretty killer, source-wise. As for additions, maybe consider one or two oscillators that can do double duty as LFOs for some extra modulation sources...always useful with wavetable souces. A couple more AD-type envelopes that can also loop would be useful too, I think, and maybe a couple more linear VCAs for modulation CV control...but that's not all that much, change-wise. This is going to sound quite cool, indeed...the architecture is not too dissimilar to a Blofeld, but in mono mode!
It's an admirable idea...there's a lot of interesting DIY out there, and these are pretty good choices. However, there's a couple of key bits missing here. First up, you're missing a multiple. Now, with something this small, you could just as well get away with stackable 3.5mms or inline mults...but the other thing missing is an output stage, and that could be problematic unless you've got something that can step the voltage level down from modular to line. My suggestion: toss out the 4-step sequencer and use something inexpensive and outboard for that task (like an SQ-1) that gets you more functionality while still keeping the cost down. That would give you ample room for something like an Elby ASM-306...and that not only gives you balanced stereo outs, it also has an onboard headphone amp, plus it, too, is DIY. Olitronik's PRO Out wouldn't be a bad choice, either...it also gives you some stereo metering for your output levels.
Other than that, I'd suggest changing the order of the modules to make the signal flow a bit more intuitive. Something such as:
...which gives you a clear left-to-right flow with a minimum of 'backward' patching. If you go with a multiple, also, that would be best to the far-left end of the case so you can branch out CVs to the oscillators.
Yeah, now...that new iteration is making a lot more sense...at this point, the only two things I'd do would be to add some more modulation sources, preferably something that can do double-duty as an envelope or an LFO, like a looping AD. I'd also consider adding some simple DC-coupled linear VCAs so that you'll have those for manipulating modulation signals. EMW's Triple VCA is about the right sort of thing for that, and as for the looping envelopes, either Intellijel's Quadra or Qu-bit's Contour would be a decent fit, and you've got the space for both. It's turning out pretty decent!
As a former owner of this panel i can say it's a great configuration coupled together with an Animal/oo.
Still lack the ResEQ & VCFS which are great on their own but for a 2 panels configuration it's an amazing combo.
Hi there, I'm looking to build a small sound design row. Have purchased the moog 104hp case and just waiting on the power unit to arrive but from what i've seen this seems like a good way to have something versatile and not to excessive..
BTW, doing this with real hardware modules too, even when they are not ment for flipping. In my two row system I like to keep the jacks in the center as much as possible. It clears some of the cable spahetti.
with the somewhat recent "panel selector" feature, i'm finding quite a few modules have dozens of redundant images. Can there be a mechanism to help clean these up? (ie a remove a duplicate image)
The top row is actually in Waldorf KB37 , the bottom row in a 104hp 3U skiff. I already had an NW1 and picked up on a deal for the loaded (NW1,Mod1,Vca1,vfc1) KB37 as a package. The compressor may go as I don't really need this so its just a space holder for now. Thoughts, ideas, criticisms ?
I thought it works everywhere, but I was wrong:
Rating on the mobile detail page was disabled for mobile phones.
I can not remember why, so I have enabled it again, should work now.
After doing some research, I have decided to build my first modular rack and modules from scratch. I am planning on building all of these modules based on the schematics provided by Noise Reap. I have plenty of experience soldering, analyzing and troubleshooting circuits, so no need to worry about that. I'm currently studying electrical engineering and have plenty of desktop/hardware synths (LXR Drumsynth, Roland Juno-106, ...) and am excited about getting into modular synthesis. I understand the two different schools of thought (east and west), and I think I could start out with the east-coast subtractive style. I started out with a couple modules, or at least the ones I thought covered the basics. Let me know if this rack works or if you have other suggestions, thanks!
I would like to know if the behaviour of my Sara VCF is normal: you see, in LP mode, it won't open fully. By ear, I'd say it opens up to 8KHz but no more.
I've tried calibrating it, but while making it open a bit more, it still wasn't enough, and moreover it then made the filter not close fully.
This affects both cores, so I suspect it is normal, but I'd like to be sure. Could anyone here owning one confirm that please ?
Thanks a lot for your feedbacks ! So I first put the mixer out of the case. I'll use the Hot Glue that I already have and use the integrated compression with the send of the Rosie that I also already have. The Hot Glue will go into Rosie In1 et Veils into Rosie in 2 so I have a 8 channels mixer with compression and out line level.
I added Waveshaping, filter bank and move out all the percussive part that is not that much important at the moment. I also move out the Erica Synth VCO. I take your point about basic VCO's but actually I really like those I already have and like their versatility. I'm not sure about the Quadra. Envelopes will be use as modulation in combination with Quadra LFO of the Ornament and Crime. Maybe you were not thinking about that when you talked about a miss of CVs modulation ?
I also tried to reorganize the rack a bit. What do you think now ? Much better or worse ?
New rack is here :
Edit : You need to click on it for the real current state
Yet again, it's another crazed month (right after NAMM...go figure) for new Eurorack toys. So let's dive in and have a look at some of the new entries here in Modulargrid that I find particularly jazzy and cool. Shall we...?
1) Antimatter Audio Crossfold. OK, this thing is just...well, if you're into timbral wavefolding, this thing just knocks it out of the park. It's amazingly capable, taking two audio signals and applying what Antimatter called 'crossfolding' to combine and distort their respective waveforms. It also has a limiter onboard for nice, nasty clipping. Go have a look at this thing; they say that this gives you West Coast-type complex oscillator behavior from any two VCOs, but the audio clips hint at this being even more nuts than that!
2) CaviSynth Bufflide. Simple and smart: put a buffered 1-3 mult on the same 4 hp panel as a basic slew limiter. It's cheap, it's convenient...so simple that you kinda wonder why you don't see more utility-type modules like this. Did I say cheap? Yeah... A one-stop for CV prep for multiple VCOs.
3) TAKAAB's at it again! I mentioned their LFO module last time, and now they've got some new and CHEAP basic things to tempt us with, such as a dual 1-3 buffered mult for $34, a THAT2180 VCA with dual inputs and dual attenuated Cvs for $62, and a basic 3 channel DC-coupled mixer for yet another $34. This is very cool, even though none of these are very 'sexy', because you still need plenty of basic devices like this and Siam Modular (that's who's behind these) is making 'em affordable enough to have in piles. And no, I didn't stutter...'Siam'...as in Chiang Mai, Thailand, which is where they're located. It's an interesting development; I'd always thought that if/when module design and manufacture made it to SE Asia, we'd start to see some meteoric price drops, and this does appear to be the case. I really wonder what they're going to drop next?!
4) Audiospektri HG-30. From Thailand to Finland now...no, it's not cheap, but given what they've managed to jam into 32 hp, you shouldn't expect it to be! Howsabout a 30-band additive spectrum generator that can double as a vocoder? And more besides? This thing is massively capable...go and see the material they have on their website at http://www.audiospektri.com and you'll agree that it's all that and a bag o' chips for about a grand.
5) Super Synthesis 2OPFM. OK, that last one was spendy...but this isn't, and it's neat. A 2-op digital FM voice with analog controls for $99? Huh...you can cram a DX7's worth of FM generators into your Eurorack for $297, you say? Why, yes, son...and just as cool and digital is...
6) DSP Synthesizers CZ1. Also $99 (assembled, I presume...the kit on their wordpress page is $75). It's what you think, a Casio CZ-type VCO using the wonderful phase-distortion synthesis method from the CZ-101 and others of that Casio line, but in this case it's here under analog control. In a very real sense, this thing can function as a self-contained voice jammed into a measly 3 hp.
7) Seismic Industries spink0. No price on this yet, but Ableton Live users are going to plotz over this. It's a 6 hp device that works with Ableton Live Link so that you can lock up clocks between your DAW and your modular, all based on Raspberry Pi so that tweaks to its firmware over time and further development are doable. Hopefully we'll see this module in a broader release before long...?
8) Malekko Drum. A 4-channel drum sequencer, this also links with their Varigate-based architecture, allowing data saves to that module as well as lockup and control functions. This is pretty smart; I like the ideas behind the Varigate and Voltage Block, and this just adds another blade to that Swiss Army Knife. Supposed to drop in April.
9) Golt! Red Light District. Ohhhh, yeah...now this is a piece of kit! A straightforward CV/gate sequencer, but with loads of clock mutability, plenty of hands-on performance control, MIDI and DINsync capabilities. Not cheap, but very much worth the $895. Capabilities are way too complex for this short blurb here...you need to check this out for yourself!
10) Erica Black Mute Mixer. Now, this is another of those 'why aren't there more of these'-type modules. It's a basic AC-coupled three-channel mixer...but Erica's gone a little further and added some nice convenience touches that make it more than just your average audio mixer. How about mutes on each channel? Or a three-out buffered mult at the output stage? And diode protection against reverse voltage oopses? It's got 'em. Simple, not sexy, but damned smart.
11) Ladik A-570. No price here yet (I tried, couldn't find one on Ladik's site) but it's worth keeping an eye on for when that comes up, because Ladik stuff is a great value for simple, useful tools. In this case, it's a little more than just that, though...it's an output module, but with some amazing twists, such as programmable metering, a separate 3.5mm out that can either be jumpered for line level or synth level voltages, and a balanced 1/4” TRS line out for pro-grade audio connection. Most output modules tend to fit in 4 or 6 hp, and while this is only a single channel in 4 hp, this is going to be an important piece of circuitry for synthesists using multichannel rigs for making sure your four (or more) channels are all symmetrically balanced. Buy 'em by the sackful!
So that's it for this month's installment. What...you say it's a day early? Well, sometimes good things are worth NOT waiting for!
3 go in, 1 goes out. A mixer!
It has even the crazy sum Σ sign on the panel. To remix Whitney Houston there are better options available, though. Like SSL or Neve consoles.
-- solitud
3 go in, 1 goes out. A mixer!
It has even the crazy sum Σ sign on the panel. To remix Whitney Houston there are better options available, though. Like SSL or Neve consoles.
The sum output in the bottom is the justification for that I suppose.
Sure it's not a mixer but it's got that feature nonetheless.
Not that I'm the one who will be deciding if it's gonna be listed as a mixer or not...
I press 'c' flip to the other browser tab, press 'p' - nothing. What's the secret?
-- OurMod
The secret is to hover with your mouse over the target rack before pressing v.
The reason: there has to be some kind of focus, else people would paste a module when entering "VCA" in the search field which is on the same page. That is a bit confusing and not ideal and I will think about a better solution.
Not really a question of too many voices, I don't think...but too many different audio sources. Consider why many modulars tend to have several of the same VCO; it's not a matter of being 'simple', but a matter of having something on which you have a level of programming ease that allows you to get back to sounds that have worked in the past. When you have a hodge-podge of sources, as in this rack, it becomes more difficult to program each different element in its different way to go back to a desired result. That's why I feel it's a better move to have several basic VCOs, a few different ones besides those, and then rely on waveshaping after mixing/crossmodulating these sources to get a result. Also, having all of these disparate sources carries a problem in that you can't exactly 'gang' them...so to get each signal path to perform properly, you have to have loads of envelopes, VCAs for both audio and CVs (the latter is apparently missing from this rack), and loads of filters, and this gets into a huge amount of panel space being overrun by the needs of all of these signal chains. I would suggest finding a way to simplify this, possibly losing a lot of the 'sexy' modules in deference to a number of more compact 'boring' ones...because once you start interconnecting them, they stop being so 'boring'.
Couple of other things: first off, too many final mixers. Both the Hot Glue and the A-138 set take up a good bit of space and, at the same time, they're pretty redundant. If the important factor with the MHG is the waveshaping, chuck it and get a waveshaper plus a little submixer for its input. But the A-138 also has some problems here, in that there's not any way to use that stereo compressor after the A-138o. That module does your final gain control, auxes, and final step-down to line level, and the MSCL will want to still see things at synth levels, ergo it won't work well at the very end of your signal path...and there's no way to insert it into the final stereo bus of the A-138 since that's bussed behind the panel and has no patchpoints.
Secondly, this is a real scrambly layout...and as a rule, it becomes harder to work with intuitively and less satisfying as an instrument. I'd suggest taking everything out of your build except the P/S inlets, then making a simple paper map of what functions go where in the open space (generators, modulators, modifiers, controllers) and then sticking to that map when laying it out again. It's a lot trickier, but the disciplined effort is worth it, especially when there's a huge chunk of change involved. Take some time to look at other builders' efforts that follow that method (a lot do) as well as some of the 'classic' prebuilt modulars and then rethink.
Would love to get your opinions on this build. I'm doing techno live with a mix of pre-prepared sequences and improvised one. I already have most of the modules of this rack.
I like live tweaking + few modulations. What do you think is missing ? Too much voices ?
Actually, it could control them just fine...IF there was a quantizer. Otherwise, getting discrete scalar steps is a total pain. There's a much bigger issue with that sequencer, though: it's an Analogue Systems device. AS (not to be confused with Analogue SOLUTIONS) decided early on in the creation of the Eurorack format to adopt a weird rack spacing that results in their modules being 1 1/2 hp off of everything else that exists in Eurorack. Now, if one uses sliding nuts to rack up modules, this isn't a problem, except maybe at the row ends. But if you have tapped rails...ohmygawd...
Anyway, size-wise, I would say the rack is just fine. However, the critique about what's in it by the above poster stands. There's lots missing: VCAs, multiples, mixers, i/o, pretty much anything utility-wise that makes a modular function. Oh, and that Pittsburgh phase shifter is also discontinued, along with the other non-gettables.
My suggestion: start over, same size. Don't concentrate on the 'sexy' modules; instead, pay more attention to the boring bits, then fill in with the sexy stuff once you've got a good supporting architecture. And keep your module sizes down as much as possible, because 3 x 120 isn't as big as you might think. Also, the above poster's note that you might be trying to cram too many different functionalities into this build is pretty spot-on. Not saying it's not doable, mind you, but it'll take a considerable amount of care to get a full-on all-in-1 box into that sort of space. It's also distracting to try and build something like that without a great deal of experience...you may be better figuring out just a handful of things you want this to do, and sticking with those. Also, a good way to proceed is to partition out the empty rack, allocating specific areas for major functions and then trying to stick to that partition plan as best as possible. This way, you're thinking about the actual function blocks in terms of available space, and then you'll be more likely to go with smaller modules...and therefore, more potential in a smaller space.
One thing that you definitely need, is a mixer, for all your signals to go through, so you can collect your signals and listen to them.
A couple LFOs, VCAs, Attenuators, Envelope generators and (maybe) another filter, is a must for your set-up, and try to put in more ways to shape your sound, rather than more sound sources, but again this might be on purpose.
It looks like you're trying to make your modular a "jack of all trades" but I think you might be kinda disappointed in how limited (in the uniqueness of your sound), you are in possiblities in this set-up, but again, I'm not a modular master, And I have a quite limited experience in the modular world. This set-up might also be a bit too ambitious, for a start. I would personally start smaller.
Hope this helps, modular can be quite difficult to wrap your head around.
P.s I don't think that sequencer can control the pitch of your oscillators.
p.p.s Braids and Clouds is discontinued, so you have to find them used.
There's always stuff to learn in electronic music, and there's always going to be stuff to learn. I'm fond of telling people that the minute you're sure you know everything, then call an undertaker...because you're probably dead. But seriously, a DJ colleague of mine once pointed out that since music is now so dependent on technology, music has become harnessed to Moore's Law just like everything else technological. And I have no reason whatsoever to dispute that. Consider for a moment how much synth you get for, say, $1000. For that much, you can get a Waldorf Blofeld keyboard. Now, consider that that instrument is based, way back in its ancestry, on the PPG Wave 2.3, which was PPG's final iteration of their digital/analog hybrids. Oh, and throw in the PPG Waveterm B as well, because you'll need that to do any decent programming of wavetable data, etc.
Now, I distinctly recall that the Wave 2.3 itself, back in the mid-1980s, was somewhere between $4 or 5 thousand. Waveterm B, that was actually about the same. So, to get the whole basic PPG setup circa 1984, you'd have to drop $9k-ish, perhaps a bit more. And for that, you got a synth with a single digital wavetable engine, analog VCF/VCA signal chain, and analog modulation (EGs, LFOs) over both, a huge thing with a green-screen and 5 1/4" floppy drives that had serious cooling issues to get at the insides of the synth, and the whole mess weighed about as much as two boxes of hernias! Believe me, I know that last factoid first hand!
Waldorf Blofeld: TWO of the same sort of digital wavetable engines, similar (albeit modelled, and very well) modulation and signal chain, NO ginormous rackmounted computer (you use your own PC or Mac, the synth has USB), and I can easily tuck the keyboard under one arm and carry it around like...well, not much more than my old-skool Kawai K1. And that's all due to Moore's Law and its creep into music tech. Same goes for modular synths. I've programmed full-scale Moogs, most notably a 55 with the sequencer expansion, and with those, you're talking about a wall of control panel, and it's not...well, 'user-friendly' doesn't exactly describe a Moog modular. I found it very funny that Arturia's Modular V (their Moog replication) is just as much of a pain to work with as the actual article. But who gives a rat's about a monster-size Moog when you can slap the requisite modules in a Eurorack case...and yes, some of them being shrunk-down copies of the original Moog circuits...and carry it all around like a piece of luggage? I know what I would go for, for convenience's sake! Thanks, Gordon Moore!
Anyway, back on track...yeah, always make serious considerations about how pieces of equipment can work together when shopping for electronic music gear. You sometimes hear talk about the 'studio as instrument' concept; I prefer to think of my studio as AN instrument, not a collection of them, and that seems to be a great way to proceed. I recall visiting Syracuse U. about 25 years back, where I saw their original studio, which was designed for them by Bob Moog. And I noted with great consideration that Bob had set the whole thing up so that there were NO preconfigured signal paths. None. Instead, everything routed to a few rackmounted patchbays, and everything could interconnect in any desired configuration from those. Soooo...these days, I can look to my right, several feet away, and see a 17U jackfield where this entire room can be reconfigured on the fly, depending on what I might want to do. Everything patchable to everything. So, yeah...the studio here IS an instrument, not an imitation of one. And that's not a bad way to make considerations when equipping ones' self with electronic music gear. Certainly, you want to know what something does, but as important a question is "how does this work with everything else?" And always consider a factor I call 'abuse potential'; case in point: I have a string synth that has a CV input so that an external CV can be fed to the master oscillator (it's a divide-down polysynth) to transpose the overall pitch. You're not really supposed to feed an envelope into that patchpoint...but if you DO...suddenly you get pulsing, polyphonic acid-type twitters. The manufacturer never intended that usage, but if it can be done and it works musically, what the hell? Gimme a patchcord...
Like comparators, also. Now, that's a circuit with abuse potential. Everything we do in electronic music with those qualifies as 'abuse', actually...because these were originally cooked up for scientific instrumentation, not music. Their original use was to derive a logic pulse or gate when a metered signal crossed a certain voltage threshold, and you see loads of Nuclear Instrumentation Modules from the 1950s and 60s that are the same basic thing as our synth comparator modules, save for some differences in the voltages involved. But because there's some crossover between early electronic instrument builders and various scientific disciplines (with the most notable example being Don Buchla), a lot of circuit ideas crept from that end of the usage spectrum and into this one. In fact, I seem to recall that the first primitive voltage sequencers were originally developed at Los Alamos as an arming and firing device for the first atomic bomb test. We just use them...well, differently.
But as far as comparators go, there's two types. One is the basic comparator, where the module emits a digital '1' of some sort when a metered voltage either exceeds or drops below a set voltage threshold. And the other, which we're just starting to see in Eurorack (Joranalogue released one) is the 'window comparator'. These are neat as hell! How they work is that you have two threshold levels, and between them is the 'window'. So from one of these, you can actually get THREE '1' signals...above the upper threshold, below the lower one, and when the voltage is between the thresholds. To say the least, they're a kickass way to derive all sorts of trigger and gate pulses from all sorts of continuously variable voltage curves. Feed an audio waveform in, and the output becomes a variable pulse wave. Feed it velocity CVs, and it'll fire when your keyboard velocity is above or below the threshold, caused by harder or softer velocity attacks. And you can port that digital signal to anything else that can be fired by one...clock start/stops, envelope triggers, sample & hold clocking, the list goes on...
That's just ONE example. You can also do things like using an LFO to modulate another LFO, which then modulates a third LFO, and the result becomes a more or less nonrepeating CV waveform outputted by the third LFO. Put that thru a DC-coupled linear VCA, and use an envelope to control it, and you can increase and decrease that nonrepeating CV value every time the envelope gets triggered by...well, most anything that sends a gate and/or trigger. So, why not send that to something else...maybe a filter cutoff, so you get this strange, nonlinear tremolo that gets wider and narrower as you play.
So, yeah...it's much more than 'throw stuff in box, attach patchcables'. Modular gives you the ability to literally design an instrument...or several instruments at once, if the system's big enough to support several signal paths. And as I noted, you don't have to stop that designing process at the edge of the box; coloring outside the lines is how you come up with interesting results!
But yeah...if generative's your thing, listen to a lot of it, and keep looking closely at what you see on MG to try and sort out how what you hear works...or might work...or could be done better, what the hell? Same goes for pretty much any sort of music, to be honest. Also, explore the treasure trove of racks built on here by experienced synthesists, and see how they're doing what THEY do. MG is amazing like that; it's a virtual Alladin's Cave of electronic music ideas, concepts, and methods for those willing to take the plunge deep into it.
As for some of my generative stuff, see https://daccrowell.bandcamp.com/album/beneath-puget . Now, what's going on in there is a very complex patch between my Digisound and an ARP 2600, plus a little back-and-forth flow with an MS-20 and a shortwave radio fed into the modular system via audio and two 1/10th-octave passbands into envelope followers to derive CVs based on signal amplitude. It's not a set-n-forget sort of piece, as I'm 'guiding' the modular patch with eight attenuverters on the Digisound. But each time I change one of those settings, it takes the synth (processed through a sizable processor cascade) quite some time to come back to a new state of voltage equilibrium and settle into a new activity. The only 'normal' controller use occurs before and after three theremin solos, when I drop the modular's general pitch-class way down to nearly subsonic range and then bring it back upward after the solo's done. But much of what's there is that complex, non-repeating CV-controlled patch doing whatever it wants in between attenuverter 'nudges'. Kinda nifty! I actually concocted this piece as a test-run of a 'sublayer' for a longer piece intended for live performance, so what you hear there is a 'live' take, also, because I needed a replicable and performable result for the performance version. Make sure you have an hour or so to kill to hear the whole thing, btw...it ain't short!
Lastly, have a look at this: Now, what that is is a generative concept sketch I was playing around with some time back. Note that there's only four audio sources in there, the four Weather Drones. The entire top row and the rest of the second are ALL modulation, and the third row is the output chain which eventually ends in quadrophonic output. Someone was asking me about what I'd do for a sound installation piece, and I toyed around with that design for a hot minute. But this illustrates what I was talking about nicely: not much in the way of complex sound, but the sources for that sound as well as the filtering and processing are operating with a LOT of CV modulation of varying frequencies ranging from low audio down to periods of a couple of hours. It's not a bad example-piece for something you can set in motion for, say, maybe a month or two at low ambient levels.
I feel like I could read this comments for a few years and still find things to soak in.. I liked your example with 'Music for Airports. I love that album but I've never even considered how it was made, I'm excited to go and listen to it again now.
Sal Martirano sounds like he was a revolutionary guy and that Sal-Mar instrument looks nuts, the interface looks so clean it looks like something from 2018 not the early 70's..
Jeez this is a lot to take in.. I will try to learn by listening. That makes sense. I feel like I might need a better grasp of concepts before this would even be really possible though.
Comparator's sound interesting (and confusing). So they take in some sort of source, and when that source reaches a certain level set by the comparator it outputs a trigger or gate.. So you might send the Comparator a sound source with a frequency modulated by say a vco/vca, and when that frequency hits a certain point it would trigger the Comparator..? So in that way you could get like randomized infrequent sequences based off of a predetermined sequence....? Is that at all close to being on the right track?
I didn't really think about how my current gear could fit into all of this. That's interesting.. I will keep my Volca FM anyway, and then just slowly ease my way into Euro.
I did go and buy a rack a few hours ago off of craigslist and I have the O_C on the way. Talk about impulsive.. I will just keep it simple for now. Maybe an OSC, some LFO's and VCA's and just do simple droney things until I have a better grasp on basics.
That's crazy you've been learning about this stuff for 40 years.. Does it still feel like there's more to learn? I guess theirs probably an infinite amount to learn almost.. Out of curiousity I wonder if you wouldn't mind sharing something you have recorded? I would love to have a listen, especially with some kind of description of the process. This is asking a lot though, feel free to tell me to bugger off.
If you have a line on a built O&C, then yes, get one. Moreso than the Pamela's, that will allow for more in the way of generative work. Pamela's, ultimately, is more of a timing source-type of device, and while it can do some of that, the access to those functions thru the UI on it is a little clunky. A lot of the point of modular is to have the controls...ALL the controls...right there to grab, hence the ginormous control panel on these things. Modular synths are literally a gigantic control surface, so the better you can control the process you've patched, the more expressive and complex and such you can be with them. If you've worked with VCV, you get a bit of this idea, but VCV without a touchscreen (which I have) doesn't exactly get the point across fully.
Generative music, basically, is a subset of a compositional school of thought known as 'process music'. The idea is to create a structure that approximates a certain algorithm, and let that run, sometimes while making adjustments. I've actually worked with the earliest algorithmic electronic instrument created, the Sal-Mar Construction, which was a built-from-scratch device created by one of my composition teachers, Sal Martirano, back in the early-mid 1970s. In the case of that device, Sal used analog computing hardware to control the behavior and interactivity of the control surface and the synthesizer subsystems, and that analog computer had to be hardwire-patched. So what happens when patching a generative algorithm is that the synth patches in a modular synthesizer are behaving much like an analog computer, generating and reacting to various voltage curve functions. But the synth(s) of the Sal-Mar are actually pretty simplistic sound generators; the real 'meat' in the instrument is the control surface interaction, manipulating the algorithmic structure as time in a performance passes.
So, ultimately, doing generative music requires an effective layer of modulation control sets, in which the 'control' layer is being manipulated by a 'modulation' layer, which in turn gets manipulated by a 'sub-modulation' layer, and so on, with the idea being that the generative process is non-repeating and controls a fairly restricted set of sound generation as the listenable 'foreground'.
Perhaps the best example of this is Brian Eno's "Music for Airports"; while this work doesn't use synths that play as part of the work's audible layer, the audible elements are on tape loops. These loops are 'modulated' by the decisions Eno made in terms of loop length, cutting them so that they have a great deal of mathematical difference with respect to the loop duration, so that once started, the loops will never 'line up' again. Then the 'submodulation' comes from random factors involved with the playback machines themselves, since very few tape machines are 100% precisely the same, a factor Eno also took into account. And while this sounds like it has the potential to be very chaotic, it's actually anything but that, because Eno's choices of material which was recorded on the loops was highly restrictive. Any one layer will always correspond to any other layer's tonality, degree of activity, and so forth.
Now, with a modular synthesizer set up for generative work, one way to do this is to have several very simple sequencers which are running at speeds that also avoid 'lining up', with the clocks for each of these also having some degree of nonrepetitive behavior, and another layer that modulates that slightly and/or reacts to control signals coming in from the layer 'above' it. However, once having devised this time scheme, then you have to be careful that the sound sources being controlled by this system are simple enough that a sizable coincident layer's sounds 'mesh', either melodically, harmonically, or texturally. Otherwise, it tends to sound like meandering crap.
That's the tricky part, one which takes loads of experimentation and experience with generating and manipulating generative systems to get results which sound really, really spot-on.
Now, what I would suggest is to listen to a lot of generative music first-off. Take careful note of what seems to be going on, and then try and analyze how that might be done with a system of control signals. Think about how the time in these works passes and how the composer arranged the generative system to cause the events, across time, to occur. Not easy once you start diving into it, but over time you start getting the idea of what the generative process behind these works might be.
Once you start getting a feel for that, you're going to notice that modulation sources are the key...not so much sound sources. So that, actually, is where you want to start. Look at CV modulation sources, how you can make them interact, interfere, and so on. Then, how do you get the actual sound controls out of that continually-shifting process? Lots of ways: multipling out control voltage curves, using comparators to trigger events, altering timing signals feeding sequencers, etc. Be inventive. And study for some time how to extract control signals from the generative function layer...there's loads of ways that the can be done. THEN worry about the sounds. And you're likely to find that the simpler you can make the sounds, the more effective a composition generated in this way can be, because they won't get in the way of each other and will interweave nicely. To see if it's right, let the result play for a long time...as in, all day, possibly. Hell, some of La Monte Young's pieces ran for many YEARS, as in his 'Dream House' drone installations.
Also note: never consider electronic instruments as being separate devices. If there's some conceivable way to connect them, then what you actually have is somewhat 'modular' already. For example, consider setting up a couple of MATHS in a way that you get non-repetition. Off of this, use a few comparators (devices that send a trigger or gate pulse when a set voltage threshold gets crossed) to 'read' some of the process's voltage curves. Then send triggers from those to...oh, let's say, the Volca clocks, all separately. Now you'll have non-coincident timing signals syncing each Volca, and if they're pitched in such a way that it all sounds 'right'...well, there's another way to do it, and proof that an 'instrument' in electronic or electroacoustic media is only bound by the limitations of your own imagination, not by which things are in what cases.
So...four days in, well, maybe you'll want to study the idea more closely. And longer. And don't just do that on MG, but actually take some real time to STUDY the idea by listening, looking into various algorithmic processes, examining how related concepts like analog computing and how chaotic mathematical processes govern 'organic' processes. I've been tinkering with these concepts for about...ah, 40 years?...so there's a lot of possibilities to mess with here, and the only limit is really imagination and how broad you can make that imagination. Definitely not solely a matter of what equipment to use.
Hey thanks for your in depth response, appreciate it.
1) ya I thought some envelopes could be helpful, I was planning on using the Pamela’s for this for the first while and mainly just experimenting with drones, but I can see your point about using Pamela’s for this as defeating the purpose of modular so maybe I'll rethink this.
2)this is included for cheap with the case I’m looking at so I figured why not.
3) I thought this would be a good first piece because of its many capabilities.. I figured it could wear many hats, Euclidian sequencer, Lfo, EG, many more things I don’t fully understand yet, it looks like it could be pretty essential in a small generative setup like this no? I have considered the Tempi as an alternative, which looks like it's a lot more immediate but a trade off for much less capabilities..
4) thanks for the heads up on the oC, maybe I am actually messaging a guy about getting one right now so we’ll see.
5) I wasn’t actually too sure of clouds function, I just saw it in a lot of people’s rigs whose music I like so I stuck in in there, was going to research more before getting though, but maybe I won't now :P
The morphogene I thought would be Fun for mainly processing external stuff (I have some Synths I will keep, Guitar, fm radio module etc)
I hear where you’re coming from though.. I definitely am rushing into this. It's a habit of mine to do this. I just can't contain my excitement.
It’s just I have found with my synths now my goal is more sonic exploration than building tracks, and it seems even from just my bit of playing with vcvrack that modular suits this purpose better for me, it feels like with modular just the process of creating can be so fun and rewarding, whereas with my setup now it just feels so oriented towards results.. I’m also not much of a keys player (not really my goal) so I always find myself just programming sequences, It feels like I'll dial in a few sequences, tweak some parameters, and then I've hit a dead end. This is what makes self generating modular patches look so appealing to me, there's just so many more options it seems.. Making these big evolving and changing patches where little tweaks can effect the whole structure and sound just seems so cool!
Thank you for your concern and input, but frankly I'm pretty set on learning, and I figure why not just dive in instead of watching youtube videos of it all day..
Oooooookay...further iterations of expanding the new Minibrutes. To the above, add four VCOs, four LFOs, two Steiner state-variables, four EGs, two sequencers...basically, all the stuff in the Arturias. I wouldn't consider the racks here to be 'complete' synths, so remember these are designed to tandem with the Minibrute 2 and 2s. Jettisoned the Moog subrack for the time being, also.
Have to say, this is looking more and more appealing as I tinker with it. Cost-wise, it's killer: about $8k with the Arturia gear + modules, and easily crosspatchable with my Digisound to push the rig out even further. Definitely cheaper in the long run than the 'in-one-box' ideas I've worked with for some time, and potentially more capable since the Arturias add way more to the combination for cheap than trying to replicate their functions in discrete module form. Pretty damn close to a final budgeting decision, I should think...definitely worth the long work toward a suitable goal.
Hm...well, first up, I'd discard the Erbe-verb in favor of using something outboard for reverb effects. This is a pretty small build, so keeping things as mission-critical as you can is a good idea. Chuck the scope and blind panel also. As for the Clouds, keep in mind that Mutable discontinued that module.
Next...and this would be a MAJOR sort of 'Oh, s**t!' moment if you did this as a physical build...how do you plan to get external audio in without an audio input module? You have to have that; line-level audio won't cut it, since all voltages (audio and CV) within most any synth environment are a lot hotter than either consumer or pro-level audio signals, and have to be preamped to get them to the proper level. Similarly, how do you intend on getting your audio back out? Yes, I see a output module...but no mixer. This is fine if you intend on cascading modules in series as an audio chain, but otherwise you'll have a problem separating the different processed signals without a lot of unnecessary knobtwisting. Your audio chain, to work well, needs to look like this:
[INPUT] -> [MULTIPLE (dividing audio to processing)] -> [PROCESSORS (in parallel)] -> [MIXER (summing paralleled audio)] -> [OUTPUT]
...and keep in mind that some of your devices are stereo and some aren't, so a mixer that has both stereo-ins and mono-ins with panning is a good idea.
Otherwise, yeah, this is a good idea...a lot of people don't think about using modular synthesizers as a sound processor, but the fact is that they've been useable like this since the start. In fact, one of the very first rock recording Moog usages was on The Doors' "Strange Days", on which Jim Morrison's vocal is being processed through Beaver and Krause's system which was used on those sessions. You maybe, possibly, might wanna consider a larger cab, though...
Hm...there's a lot of problems here. Let's dive in...
1) Envelopes. There's zero envelope generators in this build. And you really need those, since they create amplitude contours (via VCAs), timbral contours (applying envelopes to VCF cutoff, resonance), asymmetrical modulation (applying envelopes to VCO FM inputs), etc etc. This is going to be a serious stumbling block. Yes, you can apply LFO signals as a simple substitute for some of this, but you don't have the ability (as a rule) to specify the parameters of the modulation curve with them.
2) Buffered mult. You don't actually need that; a passive mult will do fine if there's only two oscillators in this. Buffered multiples are used to exactly replicate an inputted signal, often to avoid 'voltage droop' when controlling numerous devices with a single CV. There's not enough here to really justify it, so save some money.
3) Pamela's. Again, this doesn't seem necessary. The module is an eight-channel CV source under a single clock, with one of its main uses being to lock up behavior of/around a sequencer, and there's no sequencer here. Yes, it can output a lot of other things, but using it in that way means that you still won't have proper hands-on control over the parameters that it's outputting, and a big key in using a synth effectively is to have the actual controls at hand to manipulate, not hidden behind some sort of menu structure. If the idea is to use this for envelopes, etc...I wouldn't do that. It simply brings you back to the awful 1980s world of programming through a single data control (think DX7 here), and defeats the whole rationale for working with a modular.
4) Putting an O&C build on 'low priority'. Not a good idea. If you really want one of these, you have to act quickly when they pop up, because the people building these do so on pretty short build runs. The kit versions are not too difficult to come by, but an Ornament and Crime isn't a 'starter kit' build, so if you're not experienced with some complex electronics work, the kit option probably won't work out nicely.
5) Clouds. Doesn't exist anymore, so you'd have to either source a used module or find a third-party build. If the latter, refer to #4 above. Also, what Clouds does is somewhat similar to what the Morphagene does; are two devices of this sort necessary?
The best advice I can give is STOP. Sit back, take a few deep breaths, get the heady aroma of modular out of your head a bit. Modular synths are just as capable as the synths you mention in your post of being eventually uninspiring. Just because there's all these...THINGS...doesn't mean that that factor changes any, it just makes the fiscal outcome of being 'uninspired' way more expensive.
Now, first of all, I can tell you...from experience...that if you're getting bored by your synths, you're probably not spending enough time exploring their capabilities. Granted, Volcas are a bit limited, which is why they're mission-specific, but they still have a lot of abuse potential. Have you looked into any of the hardware hacks for them? Tried 'misapplying' what they do (which was key in the discovery of what the TB-303 could really do, c. 1987)? Also, those are relatively simple synths you're listing; have you considered a hardware synth that allows you to get further 'under the hood' first, something like a Waldorf Blofeld where you basically have a redone version of the PPG wavetable architecture, or something additive such as a Kawai K5000s? Neither are that expensive on the used market, certainly nowhere near the expense of a Eurorack system. Explore more. It's not a good idea at all to take a leap from a Toyota Corolla to a Koenigsegg for going from a first car to a second, and it's not a good idea to go from something very simple like a Minilogue to something that's totally complicated like a modular of any format. Best way you can see this point is if you have some way to access a modular synth for a little while, without assistance...which I recommend to anyone considering taking a flying leap into modular synthesis from an early point in working with electronic music in general. Modular synthesizers are A way of getting toward something new/different, but not THE way. Versteh'?
