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Hi GunnarWaage,

I have spent a fair amount of time studying peoples opinions on polyphony in eurorack and definitely understand where you are coming from. It seems as though many people possibly even the majority believe that eurorack shines as a monophonic format. That being said what I am think is significantly more complex than just chords and is much closer to fully contrapuntal lines with a drone or ostinato in the background. To me eurorack appears especially well suited for this because having separate voices that have significantly different textures can be achieved by running each voice through different filters, envelopes, effects, etc. Think like an orchestra with a string section, a brass section, and a woodwind section. This simply cannot be easily achieved simultaneously on most polyphonic synthesizers (or at least not with the level of control I wish to have).

All of that being said, I realize that having a variety of different oscillators, more filters, and many other modules would be needed to fully realized this goal, but the layout I posted is my rough idea for a starting point that I can expand on as I learn the format better and have time to save up money for additional modules.

Beyond all of that, many of the artists that I have been listening to who primarily or prominently use eurorack seem to have polyphonic setups (or at least that is what I hear but can’t see if they are 100% in the rack or not from Spotify). Artists that come to mind are AnnAnnie, Lightbath, and Ben Jordan. I am thinking more classically than these artists at the moment but may try to grow into their styles more later on. More importantly however, I think it is noteworthy that these artists have reached a relative amount of success and acclaim with eurorack, so I’m not sure if any form of polyphony should be disregarded or even discouraged, although it is fair to warn of a significant increase in monetary investment in what is already a very expensive format.

I do understand where you are coming from and agree that eurorack can be an awesome format for monophony, but also believe that it’s polyphonic capabilities have yet to be fully explored. Thanks again for your opinions and input, it has definitely been good for thought, and I’ll be checking out some of the modules and equipment you suggested for sure!

Hey Ian,

Sorry, I meant to say floppy drive, not floppy disk.

Enjoy the planning phase of modular and look forward to hearing from you once you got your first modules and your first impression :-) Kind regards, Garfield.

Hi Illlumen,

Yes, take it easy, while saving money, you can play around with your rack and those modules and after a while you will see you get a more clear view on what you like and prefer, from there you can then see how you can "fill up" the HP-gap :-)

Have fun with your modular system and kind regards, Garfield.

Okay... bye then!

Enjoy MW and good luck...

Please do tell us how you get on - I for one like to get to the end of the story :)
-- Kel_

Like a whodunit with the last page torn out :-)

Well, to be 100% honest, when I wrote that my Neutron had arrived and I was going to give up.

I'm now considering options. Why? See:

https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=232344

Why not here? Because I use a Chrome extension called Read & Write which, for some reason doesn't work on this site:-(

Hey Garfield

Thanks for taking al ook.

However, I've done without the into for donkeys so I guess it would be no big deal if it went to the grave with me :-)

The SY77 is the only hardware synth I have left so no others to back up.

Very useful to know, though, if anyone needs to use floppies.

Hey Garfield Modular,

thanks for your advice. At the moment I already have installed every module in the rack (Mantis) you can see in the picture. So I really know how limited my space is right now. I have tested the Harmonic Oscillator and the Complex Oscillator and I decided to keep the HO. So I still want one more oscillator for drones and textures. I strongly lean towards the E352, soundwise.
But it will take some more time until I got the money together, so I should have enough time to think it through.

Hi Ian,

For a few bucks you can buy a cheap USB floppy drive ;-) Then you are at least able to transfer your old stuff to your computer.

Hmm, they are not as cheap as I hoped for but one looks quite reasonable (amazon.co.uk).

Kind regards, Garfield.

Edit: Removed typo

EDITED May 24th 2020, 22:32

Please do tell us how you get on - I for one like to get to the end of the story :)

I know what I'm going to do now.

Thank you :-)

Yes I let you know If I can do something listenable.
I've contacted Paul Schraber.

EDITED May 24th 2020, 14:59

I ended up deciding on the ladder filter. Less sound sculpting options, but it sounds so freakin' good. Thanks for the input.

Yes, they are pretty much unobtanium at the moment, no idea if any more will be made, Scott is currently releasing a lot of MKIII modules so it could be that this will never be made again, but I don't know that!

Scott can be very slow to reply, but he usually does eventually.

I would not place an order expecting anything to arrive any time soon.

There are lots of alternatives, although none that I know of that will match this particular expression!

Frap Tools Falistri, Endorphin.es Grand Terminal, Make Noise Maths, etc.

If you are looking for the Harvestman flavour, you could perhaps try the original Double Andore, there are a few of those around, but again, they are not the same, although some folk would argue the original is the better of the two if you like super snappy envelopes.

What was it about the Double Andore MK][ you were specifically interested in? I might be able to help!

Go for it :)

Sorry I couldn't help more...!

Good luck!

...and please do report back with your progress, I am interested to se/hear what you do here :)

You are correct. There is no doubt that many of these things can be achieved for a fraction of the cost and effort in software! For chords you are almost certainly better off with a computer and a synth that can respond to polyphonic midi.

My personal take on it is that I find software less immediate and I usually work all day on a computer so for me it is worth paying the price of entry into modular to get away from it to make music.

Obviously this is a personal decision that only you can make :)

I would say 2k is a good starter system, either off the shelf or build yourself (I don't mean DIY).

If you are interested in modular, I think rather than trying to go for this specific musical idea, you are probably better off choosing a system (Erica, Make Noise, ALM, Endorphin.es - depending on your musical style preference) for your 2k, knowing you are getting a complete very well thought out system that will give years of enjoyment and exploration, give that a go for a while, learn what the strengths of modular are and then see what else you would like to do.

Whatever you decide I wish you good luck!!

Thank you for your continued efforts :))

I would recommend a transactional email service like Mandrill, but I understand this is additional expense!!

Hey,
sorry there is still an issue with the email server. It seems the hoster kind of throttles MG emails returning SMTP errors.
We cache outgoing emails so important stuff should not be lost but there can be a serious delay (days) in the transport.
I am on trying to improve the situation.

...and speaking of recent hardware developments, you might want to have a peek at https://floppyusbemulator.com/product/n-drive-extreme-emulator-for-yamaha-sy77-sy99 No need to chuck that synth out because the FD is shot, and this sort of upgrade allows for MASSIVE storage of data that the FD could never pull off. My aim here is to eventually replace all floppy drives in my synths, samplers, etc with these; on something like my S6000, the ability to store multiple gigabytes of sample data on a thumb drive easily supercedes even the internal HD in speed and capacity.
-- Lugia

That's interesting. Also available in the UK from Amazon (if anyone's interested). However, it costs more than my SY77 is probably worth :-) Also, I don't use it and want rid of it. However, I do have some material on floppies which I'd like to save if poss. Interestingly, I no longer have a computer with a floppy drive!

Hi,

I have equipment for recording.
Zoom H5, LOM Priezor, Mikro Usi and Elektrosluch Mini City.
And I thought about using Soundforge of course, but I hope a software exists for this.
I'll ask Paul Schreiber one day.

Thanks.

Garfield, I think we agree on this pretty much, I think you are right in that LilP should start more basic, if he wants a chord machine later on there are a few good ones. Study filters and when you find a filter you like, chances are Doepher is selling a clone of it for 80 euros. What I like about his rack is Plaits, I think he could have fun with that one. He seems to be going more west coast so additive may be his thing. Hysteria from Dreadbox is actually a very good oscillator, goes for a 100, has a quantizer, is additive in part, perfect for sync and stays in tune.

And so back to the polyphonic question and on a budget, Dreadbox has a very nice line which is not expensive https://www.dreadbox-fx.com/chromatic-modules/

Hi GunnarWaage,

Ah okay, understand what you are saying, fair enough indeed.

Ha, ha, I might be one of those few people, stupid enough (that's rather a remark to myself than to other people) to try to do some polyphonic stuff with their modular (indeed I am using the Sinfonion for that as well) but of course you are right to say that most of it will be indeed monophonic.

Thanks a lot for your point of view and kind regards, Garfield.

Hi GunnarWaage,

I am not sure if I can follow you, perhaps you can define polyphonic so we talk about the same thing? :-)

I always thought that modular can be either monophonic or polyphonic, totally up to the user?

Thank you very much in advance and kind regards, Garfield Modular.
-- GarfieldModular

It can of course, you can do what ever you like, however a modular synth is of little use if you are only going to try and emulate a polyphonic synth with it. So for new guys who are met with this polyphonic discussion they tend to get sidetracked.

Doepher is marketing quad vco's, quad envelopes (although fun when chained, rather than used as 4 envelopes), and polyphonic controllers which I think are of limited use for modular artists. I'm not going to explain Polyphony for you since you seem like a guy who doesn't need the explanation. However in the context of Eurorack I just think there is a polyphonic snob going on.

I have the ACL Sinfonion which is a quantizer and controller for oscillators, a chord machine. However using it on many identical oscillators or a module with many, is something I would probably not do. Those are simply my own views on the matter, I use a Novation Peak and a Roland hybrid synth for my polyphonic stuff and I think I can safely say that's what most people do.

EDITED May 24th 2020, 02:00

Hi GunnarWaage,

I am not sure if I can follow you, perhaps you can define polyphonic so we talk about the same thing? :-)

I always thought that modular can be either monophonic or polyphonic, totally up to the user?

Thank you very much in advance and kind regards, Garfield Modular.

I think they're actually talking about data sonification here, not working with EM audio. The OP probably should contact Paul Schreiber @ Synthesis Technology directly to get this answered, frankly.

Nice works, Wishbonebrewery!

I'll see if I can pre-order one... :-)

Must confess most of my music stuff has been in software for the last umpteen years. I'm thinking it would be nice to twiddle a few knobs as software is so hands off. So not up to speed with recent hardware developments.

M last remaining synth is a SY77 - if anyone's interested in buying it (needs new drive belt which I haven't got around to fixing.

...and speaking of recent hardware developments, you might want to have a peek at https://floppyusbemulator.com/product/n-drive-extreme-emulator-for-yamaha-sy77-sy99 No need to chuck that synth out because the FD is shot, and this sort of upgrade allows for MASSIVE storage of data that the FD could never pull off. My aim here is to eventually replace all floppy drives in my synths, samplers, etc with these; on something like my S6000, the ability to store multiple gigabytes of sample data on a thumb drive easily supercedes even the internal HD in speed and capacity.

i dunno they had a boatload of success from monotron up to the period you are talking about

-- euPothrou

Exactly my point. It doesn't matter if they kept hitting things out of the park with the Volcas, the Monotrons, the Mini and Monologues, the reissues of the MS-20 and Odyssey...all it takes is a string of really moronic moves, and gains even on THOSE levels can be negated. And the KARP 2600 FS is, as far as I'm concerned, one seriously rotten cherry on Korg's cake.

It's hard to believe that you could see a synth go from "most desired" to "most uncool" just by a massive marketing f**kup, but Korg managed it here. And I know of at least three retailers who, if they could wrap their fingers around the necks of whoever at Korg thought releasing only 500 units worldwide was a great idea, they'd squeeze until the "problem" got "dealt with", so to speak. Easily the greatest disappointment in synths since the Micor Coupland, and pretty much an invitation to Uli to come in and eat Korg's lunch.

It's not like you or 99% of the rest of the people waiting for a KARP 2600 were going to get one anyway. Without a doubt, the "reissue" of that synth is probably Korg's moment of ultimate, crowning stupidity amongst a series of gaffes, starting with the release of the NONsyncable KR-mini and KR-55 Pro drum machines. These could've been stock-in-trade machines for the electro and retro-disco crowd IF they'd had that...but someone at Korg seems to have lost their mind, and then continued losing it. There's the inherent defects with the Prologues, reissuing the FS MS-20 in ugly-ass colors for $1400 (the original wasn't even close to that!) when the market is already saturated with electronically-identical MS-20 minis, and so on. For me, the last "safe" Korg was probably the Minilogue; I won't drop good money on their new stuff now until I see some judicious and overdue firings in their marketing and artist relations departments (for starters!).

At this pace, those a-holes will probably next reissue the MS-50...in a limited run of 12 for $5,000 because...well, why break a moronic trend, right?
-- Lugia

i dunno they had a boatload of success from monotron up to the period you are talking about

I'll see if I can pre-order one... :-)

Must confess most of my music stuff has been in software for the last umpteen years. I'm thinking it would be nice to twiddle a few knobs as software is so hands off. So not up to speed with recent hardware developments.

M last remaining synth is a SY77 - if anyone's interested in buying it (needs new drive belt which I haven't got around to fixing.

I think my re-interest in hardware is partly driven by nostalgia. Now I can actually afford most of the stuff I couldn't when I was younger - but really struggle to justify it :-(

Yes, the 2600 is disappointing

Another way would be with Monome Teletype - it would involve creating a look up table for your chords and some programming to determine the probabilities, but probably a few ways to achieve this.

The Teletype will have more fine grain control and precision, the Harvestman will be more 'tweaky' and more fun to play :)

-- Kel_

Yes, that is a module all right! :-)

I've read the stuff on the site and watched some YT vids altho not read any of the manuals. Looks amazing. Not gone into it enough to decide if it can do what I'm after but I tend to think if I go down this route I may as well keep the whole thing in software.

Not least of all I can see it would be easy to drop £2K+ before I get off the starting block :-)

I may have to reconsider my musical ambitions :-)

Anyone know where this can be bought? I've contacted local dealers by email, on Twitter and I've sent an inquiry through the Industrial Music Electronics contact form on their website, but haven't seen any response (Not saying there hasn't been any, it could easily be I've just missed it). Everywhere in my Country it's listed as out of stock or unavailable without any reason. I think it wasn't in stock even in other countries too. I'm worried if it was discontinued that I could place an order and be waiting forever for a module that'll never come, while I could be looking for an alternative. Does anyone know if it was discontinued, or if it's in fact still available? Thanks for any information.

Hey... not many people are on this forum from what I can gather! I didn't see this until now :)

What would you use to record the electromagnetic fields?

The most obvious thing that comes to mind is this:

https://somasynths.com/ether/

Then I guess you could use any audio wave editing software? Audacity perhaps?

Yay, glad you got it :))

Yeah, not sire off the top of my head how you could do the decisions like that exactly, but I bet there is a way in the Monome Teletype! Maybe ask over on Lines.

https://llllllll.co

It's not like you or 99% of the rest of the people waiting for a KARP 2600 were going to get one anyway. Without a doubt, the "reissue" of that synth is probably Korg's moment of ultimate, crowning stupidity amongst a series of gaffes, starting with the release of the NONsyncable KR-mini and KR-55 Pro drum machines. These could've been stock-in-trade machines for the electro and retro-disco crowd IF they'd had that...but someone at Korg seems to have lost their mind, and then continued losing it. There's the inherent defects with the Prologues, reissuing the FS MS-20 in ugly-ass colors for $1400 (the original wasn't even close to that!) when the market is already saturated with electronically-identical MS-20 minis, and so on. For me, the last "safe" Korg was probably the Minilogue; I won't drop good money on their new stuff now until I see some judicious and overdue firings in their marketing and artist relations departments (for starters!).

At this pace, those a-holes will probably next reissue the MS-50...in a limited run of 12 for $5,000 because...well, why break a moronic trend, right?

EDITED May 23rd 2020, 16:47

Sorry missed this, but yes - totally doable, but will cost a bit!!

One way with Harvestman / Industrial Music Electronics Stillson Hammer and Argos Bleak.

Set the chords up on Argos Bleak

Set 4 steps, one each to the correct voltage to trigger the chord in Argos Bleak, then set to play on random on Stillson hammer MK][ for 25% probability. To increase the probability distribute the voltages across the number of steps in your sequence - think about what having two steps on the same voltage in a 5 step sequence on random would do to the probability.

-- Kel_

I've had a look at this - at last! :-) - and as best my befuddled brain can gather, this gives each chord a certain probability of sounding. In other words, each chord has its own probability which is in no way influenced by any other chord, particularly the chord that's currently playing.

Is that right?

If not, ignore the rest of this post :-)

What I'd like to try is for the current chord to affect the probability of the next one. Eg, if the current chord is C, then Am might have a 20% chance of playing and G a 60% chance. If the current chord was Dm, Am might have a 50% chance of playing, etc.

Really, no one?

Ah...!

Harvestman is the name of the COMPANY that made the modules. I thought it was the name of a module. Doh!

Sorry.

Alles ist klar
:-)

Not heard of the MS-20ic. Interesting.

The desire for a MS-20 (or clone) is def a throwback for me :-) I lusted after one of these back in the day.

I had an original Roland 100M system but sold it when MIDI arrived - I saw the writing on the wall for analogue! :-) I don't regret it as I wanted polyphonic stuff. And not tempted even by Behringer's 100m-a-like.

I'm in the UK and most MS-20 mini sellers (ebay) want MORE than you can buy a new one for. Crazy. I wish my customers were as ignorant :-)

And I DO like the form factor as you say. The diff between a Behringer and the real thing over here is only about £180. The interest in the behringer was more a space issue and potential Eurorack connectivity.

At the time I also lusted after an ARP 2600. Really interested in Korg's re-issue - until I saw the price :-)

Oddly, I watched 3 demos on YT by Korg's Luke (I think), all basically the ame and done for different shops. Just scratched the surface but ultimately disappointing and cured me of my luisting :-) I just hope I don't see any really good demos... :-)

I'll vouch for the Mantis. I have two of them joined together with the optional mounting brackets.
-- farkas

Good to hear coz the Mantis is looking increasingly liley :-)

Also like the fact that you can join two. And good VFM.

The Putts look great but I'd struggle to put them in the VFM category :-) But I guess that is subjective.Or maybe more to do with the fact that it costs an arm and a leg to get into this before you actually start spending arms and legs... :-)

If I was clever, I'd be tempted to make a case, too. Why do you need a router?
-- iantrader

To cut out wooden shapes for the case sides that are to my own designs. :)

-- wishbonebrewery

Ah... Most people who do DIY cases tend just to use rectangles :-)

They do look boxy but then so do most cases, esp Doepfer.

If you have a local Maker group, someone there will probably have one.

You'd also want a router to set up ventilation cuts in your cab's back, sort of like how 2Egress does with some of their huge Eurorack designs. And it's easy enough to put some fabric or foam covering on the inside there to keep random objects out of the cuts.

Cool circuits are HAPPY circuits, after all!

Take a look a HydraSynth...

Or not. I had a really icky and unpleasant experience with one of Ashun's N.Am reps, put me right off that synth. I went with a Modal Argon8 instead...rather similar, with an extra oscillator per voice, plus the company is a LOT easier to work and communicate with. And the Argon8 is cheaper. You do lose that polyaftertouch + ribbon controller...but given that I've got a CS-80, I ain't hurtin' for a workout with those.

There ARE Eurorack modules that can standard-shift from Korg's standard to Euro and vice-versa, though.

Fact is, this is a bit of a throwback to the "bad ol' days" where there WERE a lot of different interfacing standards. Korg and Yamaha both used the Hz/V and negative trigger/gate standard, EML had their 1/12V steps, Moog had the awful, rotten, ROT-TEN S-trigger system, and things like the Buchla 100 were off in wackyland, with no real scaling and two different signal paths for audio and control signals. When MIDI came along, some of this was still going on...and remained as an annoying "latency" for those using the older gear. That we have to deal with these NOW is due to either exact replication (Korg's redux of the MS-20, or EMW's rework of the EML 200/300) or outright copying with no foresight to correcting these shortcomings (Behringer's you-name-it).

Do yourself a favor though, and grab an MS-20 mini on the used market (where there's plenty). Be careful to NOT buy an MS-20ic, though, as those were just gimmicky controllers for a software analog emulation system Korg kicked out many years back, and some unscrupulous/ignorant sellers try and foist these off as MS-20 minis. Look for the BLACK nut around the phones jack; the ic has a silver one. Anyway, even with the voltage standard issues, the MS-20 (of any sort) is a real face-ripper! It's hard to say what's the most fun about it, too...the VCF pair? The input section (drum machine + that = instant Aphex Twin!)? The fubar patching routings? Really, it's a fun little box, not to be idly dismissed. But do get the real thing; a lot of the point of that synth DOES depend on its form factor, which still works at 81% size.

Hehe - sure!!

That's a variant of an old Russian Oscillator - not sure what the relevance is here?

-- Kel_

They were the modules you said you used:
One way with Harvestman / Industrial Music Electronics Stillson Hammer and Argos Bleak.

I'm checking them out and trying to work out how they fit together to do what you do.

Some interesting IME stuff there :-)

If I was clever, I'd be tempted to make a case, too. Why do you need a router?
-- iantrader

To cut out wooden shapes for the case sides that are to my own designs. :)

Started getting notifications again... thanks whoever fixed this

...or if it was just random - thank you random power in the universe?

I'll vouch for the Mantis. I have two of them joined together with the optional mounting brackets. They have plenty of power for my needs, enough connections for my needs, and are deep enough for my needs. I believe they state that the bottom row is 60mm or so deep, but with cables and everything installed it seems a little shallower than that. I would be hesitant to try to install any of the super deep Doepfer modules. Most modules fit perfectly though, just be mindful of module dimensions listed here on Modular Grid. I also like that I am not eating up hp with power modules.
It might not be cool to say, but the Mantis looks pretty good too. My wife calls it "the spaceship". I don't think I would feel comfortable taking it to a live gig, but it performs (and looks) great in the studio. I picked up a few Make Noise skiffs in case I need something more mobile.
If I hadn't decided on the Mantis, I would have definitely chosen one of the Pittsburgh Modular offerings. They are an excellent value.

Oh dear. Sorry to hear that. Do you think it's a general problem with the RackBrute or did you have a faulty unit? Arturia stuff usually seems pretty reliable.

Not used Bax. They have a great deal on the RackBrute which makes it tempting. Not tempting at its usual price :-)

If I was clever, I'd be tempted to make a case, too. Why do you need a router?

I'm also still confused about power supplies which is why I'd prefer one ready-installed.

uZeus seems to be one of the most popular but someone in another forum said they had problems with it.

SynthRacks recommends the TipTop Zeus Studio Bus. The dost for a 9U case is more than the case itself!!

The Mantis is probably currently top of the list although I'm still looking :-)

These are pretty advanced modules not the easiest to use, but they definitely reward time and patience and then become seriously good fun - definitely amongst my favourites!!

Hehe - sure!!

That's a variant of an old Russian Oscillator - not sure what the relevance is here?

Argos Bleak:

https://www.modulargrid.net/e/industrial-music-electronics-argos-bleak

Stillson Hammer:

https://www.modulargrid.net/e/industrial-music-electronics-stillson-hammer-mkii