Do I need maths?

That’s it…feeling pretty good about my rack…I only own the DFam and PNW so I’m planing my next purchase. Figured another voice…Plaits…then a quantizer and Bloom…but in this setup…do I need maths?

nobody NEEDS maths - at least not the module, but it is pretty handy to have around - in that it does a lot of things - please refer to the 'maths illustrated supplement' for more details - defintely get this module or a similar one (DUSG/falistri/rampage) if you are interested in synthesis as opposed to making sounds with a synthesizer (it helps massively with that too)

I'd want more utilities - but then I always do - mixers, vcas, switches, inverters etc etc - these are the dull inexpensive modules that keep the expensive shiny ones shiny!

of all the modules to remove from the case the obvious one to me is the dfam - it has it's own case and putting it in a eurorack costs extra money to house it & the hp could be used for modules that actually need rack space

not convinced on the need for the quantizer - bloom has a quantizer built in as does pams as does dfam iirc (which may need a converter too - if so there is one in disting)

black hole dsp takes up a lot of space - fx aid (xl) is much smaller and similar in function - whilst being more versatile

Thanks for the detailed response. I keep gong back and forth between maths and some version like rampage. Starting new I really like the idea of a dedicated module to do a specific task but that gets expensive and take up a lot of space. I figure I’m gonna take out dfam once I fill up the case but right now it look better then an empty hole. I get what you are saying about utilities. This rack will sure change as I add little by little. Loving how much more I can do with the dfam with just PNW. I’m using the quantizer on PNW now but was not loving using a cv input for it. But that premature cause I don’t have many modules yet. I did not know about dfam iirc…I’ll do some research.
And as for Fx aid…that looks amazing…already threw that in my modulargrid case.
Thanks again! The modular community has been super awesome and very helpful.

Actually, one of the more interesting modulation pairings I've been tossing into builds as of late is the Maths with the Quadrax/Qx from Intellijel. The Quadrax is a 2 or 3-stage EG that can loop and have CV over rise and fall, and with the Qx it also outputs "end of X" pulses. Now, since the Maths can use those "end ofs", and also since the Qx can be used to "cascade" the Quadrax with as many EGs in the cascade as you prefer, that gives you some elaborate AND CVable modulation that pairs very nicely with how the Maths deals with its own rise/falls. Crosspatching those two is definitely a "the sum is more than its parts" situation! Then add to that something like Tiptop's MISO or Frap's 321 and a couple of linear, DC-coupled VCAs, and you'll then have a modulation monster!

And yeah, the DFAM doesn't belong in there. Even if you have open space in the cab after removing it, I'd go ahead and do that, as you don't want to be in the habit of having the DFAM in there and using it in there as well. It's a rather expensive mistake, actually...if you want to see how expensive, take the cost of the cab, divide that by the amount of hp it can hold, and then you'll have your cost-per-hp. Multiply this x60, and that's the hidden "extra" cost of cabbing the DFAM in here. Seriously...put it back in its case, and use the Eurorack cab for things with NO power and NO case.

Oh man…so much to think about. I dropped those modules in. I really like the Frap 321. I have to wrap my head around all of it. With the few modules I have…I go through the phase of just plugging things in and seeing what happens…to figuring out why that’s happening and then applying that knowledge to doing something planed out. I’m gonna have to take everyone’s advice and take out the DFAM. This has been super helpful. Gets me exploring other modules. Thanks!!!!

If you are really new to this and as you say "go through the phase of just plugging things in and see what happens" I'd suggest you may benefit from an oscilloscope.

It's one of those modules that you may think unnecessary, but time and again I've seen even seasoned modular fanatics benefit from being able to visually see what their CV is doing.

Wrapping your head around the actual working functions of things will help you better approach your build as well, IMO, YMMV.

You could get something small, like the Intellijel oscilloscope, or the Mordax DATA if you want to have the absolute best, and could always sell it down the line when you feel more confident in anticipating what each module will do when you patch it.

As to MATHS, it's giant, but it does afford a lot of opportunities, as long as you are willing to sit with it. Just off the top of my head, combined with DFAM, you would be able to achieve a great many rhythmic modulations with just that module, paired with Pam's you will be surprised at the variety, and as someone mentioned, paired with another function generator as well you'd have a never-ending way of creating modulating patterns and timbres.

Get more VCA's than you think you need as well.

Cool! I was trying to fit the Intellijel oscilloscope in the beginning and was worried that I'd get stuck needing to visualize everything instead of just hearing it. But as I play with PNW I do fall into the trap of just turning a knob and hoping it does something I like. Because of that approach I may be just passing that sweet spot because I miss hearing what happens. An oscilloscope would help.
As much as I want to fill up this case, it has been nice to just have the DFAM and PNW. Play around and then reset.

Think I am gonna get Maths. I just keep hearing how it never really gets used and people don't dive deep into it, but that's not the fault of the module.
Thanks for all the advice!

maths being 'underused' is due to the user not the module

to prevent this:

rtfm

and rtf 'maths illustrated supplement'

and especially work your way through the 'maths illustrated supplement' a good few times - possibly each. time you get a new module

BUT this does raise a philosophical question - if you have a module and you don't use everything it can do, but use it constantly for what you do use it for, are you under using the module? personally I think no - & it's more important to know what the module can do and be able to access any relevant information easily (pdf on phone or laptop is easy enough) for the times when you do want to use it for something else rather than know every single thing the module can do inside and out

and rtf 'maths illustrated supplement'

and especially work your way through the 'maths illustrated supplement' a good few times - possibly each. time you get a new module

-- JimHowell1970

+1 on the maths illustrated supplement...i have been going through at least one of the lessons each day since I got Maths to try to understand all that it can do...and in some cases had to go back over one or two of them to really grasp on to what was happening...more so because I'm very new to modular in general.

Not really. I use Quadrax and Batumi for modulation and have plenty of function generator features in these two modules.

I am planing and hope to learn each of these modules well. I have a Digitakt (which got me into modular) I love it but find myself nitpicking over samples and then searching for new samples too much and wanted to start making those sounds myself. The wonderful thing right now is having a limited amount of modules is I really have to figure out what I can actually do and what each module is good at. (Where with the Digitakt...if I want to throw in a lfo...its a button and I move on) I'm sure I'll go throw some modules figuring out what works best for me. Will keep researching and decide on the right module...whether it be Maths or some version of it. Thanks everyone.

Not really. I use Quadrax and Batumi for modulation and have plenty of function generator features in these two modules.
-- sacguy71

How does Batumi or Quadrax deal with slew limiting? Attenuverting? Mixing? Etc? Yes... there is a little overlap comparing those two to Maths. But it's not enough to say you can use those two to cover the functionality of Maths.

Hello!
So my rack has evolved since this initial post.
Where I am at…
I have a DFAM, PNW and expander, a Mult and sound out.
I have 1500 to spend on some modules.
PLAN:
Maths
Drone Grone or Vampire( wish I saw some more vids on the vampire cause on paper it looks amazing and I’m worried I’m pulled towards the Grone drone course of clouds)
Mother 32
Some kind of quantizer
Echophon
Bloom
Can’t get them all but this was the order I was thinking.
Really loving my DFAM and PNW…I have a digitakt which I’m using for kick, snare and high hat ( love an real high hat and wish I could just have a drummer hitting hats while I mess around)
I know everyone has a different workflow and I’ve been learning about mine…. Love modular but don’t love needing 5 modules to make something musical. Which was why I ventured down the complex oscillator path. Happy the DFAM was my first module but feel like I might have gotten spoiled and think…what that’s just an oscillator with no filter?
Sorry…this turned more into a train of though then post but I guess I just wanted to give some background on my workflow thinking.
Thanks!

hmm - seems you are confusing complex oscillator with semi modular - DFAM is a semi modular - or are you talking about the drone grone?

what;s the use case for the quantizer? it would appear superfluous to me - don't the sequencers in mom, dfam and bloom have quantizers built in already? maybe not the dfam?

I've said it before and I'll say it again - more utilities!!!!

but if you don't like patching modules together maybe modular is not for you - 5 modules is a tiny patch! which is fine - but there's a reason that vcos come without filters - so you get to choose which filter (or not) is used with which vco, how many vcos are mixed before hitting a vcf, how those vcos are mixed and filtered - do you want to use an lpg instead of a vca? etc etc

Sorry my post was a bit all over the place.

Utilities: gonna start with maths…learn how I like to patch and buy more utilities.

I figure with PMW and maths will get me pretty far for now.

Also I’m slowly filling in my 1u rack. These are no brainers …mixer and mults. ( should have mentioned that)

The complex oscillator rabbit hole I went down led me to vampire and grone drone. The price point was a big factor. Looking for something to fill in the atmosphere.

Since I only own a few modules I’m still figuring out sound wise what I like. Only have YouTube for that. Filters are not high up on my list yet but if I can get a great oscillator with a filter for a good price I’m figuring why not.

Quantizer would be redundant if I grab one of the other modules.

Thanks!

well I wouldn't class Maths as utilities - although it is in a way a collection of utilities - it's often better seen as more of a complex modulation source / swiss army knife module and fantastic learning tool for modular patching and thinking in general - see the "maths illustratated supplement" for ideas

the mixer and mults and vcas(?) though definitely are indispensable utilities - as I am sure you will find the attenuversion and offsets in Maths so useful that you will want them as separate modules (shades, 3*mia etc) very soon - so that you can use Maths for more interesting things

I'd seriously consider adding a quad cascading vca such as veils or the equivalent from intellijel or happy nerding these are near fundamental to synthesis - for processing both audio and modulation signals

I’m sold! Will add some vca! Hope I didn’t offend anyone calling maths a utility:) thanks again for your responses and sharing your knowledge. Something I love about the modular community.
Will update in a bit!

I dig the Happy Nerding VCAs, actually...they're linear, making them ideal for modulation control. Plus, they can be used as a "breakable" mixer, and the ability to get three VCAs, etc into just 6 hp makes them a go-to. The topology sort of makes them less than optimal for audio, but if you're down toward the "DC Zone", these fill the bill...and then some!

I haven't used a MATHS yet, but two of the first modules I got were a 4MS PEG and a Befaco Rampage, which are similar. They were both cool, but I ended up keeping the 4MS PEG and selling the Rampage. I'm not entirely sure it was the right call, but it was slightly more fun to use than the Rampage. In any case, it has been incredibly useful. I also don't see it mentioned as much when these types of complex EGs come up, so I like to throw it a mention/recommendation, bc it has been very good to me and has been a keeper from day one, where a lot of other modules have already come/gone. It has some interesting features and it's one of those tools that I use every single time I patch, almost no exceptions. And after five months or so with it there are still a couple aspects of it I need to dive a little deeper on to get the most out of (I haven't probed the possibilities of the async and qnt jacks much, or gotten all that creative with the ways its dual egs can be switched between or used to self-manipulate).

That being said, it usually actually runs a little more expensive than Maths or Rampage, and those have a few tricks that are unique to them as well. I'd love to be able to try all 3 and compare and select the one I liked the best, but for me the PEG has been way too useful to even think about trading off anytime soon. My only complaint is it can be rather "clicky" when trying to manipulate audio directly (this also seemed just as true of the Rampage, if not more so). But I mainly use the PEG to manipulate CV signals going other places, so it's usually not a big issue for me. It also may be more my own inexperience than anything particular to the module itself. ( When I first got the PEG I was approaching it more like a traditional AD(sr) which I don't think is really how its intended to be utilized.)

As for saving space with the DFAM, I recently racked my DFAM, and while it is certainly a space hog, I like it better racked and use it more when it's racked. And while it could certainly be my imagination, I feel like the audio is a little bit better too. I wondered if this had something to do with being on the same power source as everything else, but I'm not sure if that could possibly even matter, so it's probably my imagination. Nevertheless, it'll stay racked until I absolutely need the space again. I wish I could rack my Moog Werkstatt too!

EDITED Aug 23rd 2021, 04:54