User Posts

some of the doepfer filter modules do this in 8hp - wasp, sem etc

Happy New Year!!!!!

Poor argumentation.

Let's take an unoffical poll: how many of us saw what ever module B had released and immediately upon seeing it thought, "Hang on?! That looks like...", then wondered here to have a closer look and get confirmation?

yeah that's what happens to me...

Of course there are very few new concepts, mostly just merging differnt combos of current building blocks, with specific UX/UI. But the fact that they haven't even tried to do anything different, layout, labels...It feels at the least provocative, if not an outright middle finger.
-- FATSO

the clones of in production modules aren't just a middle finger... they're outright corporate bullying - b-company knows they won't be sued by Arturia or Make Noise or Intellijel or Xaoc - as any such action will end up bankrupting them & probably before it gets to court...

This is repulsive just blatant theft of Intellijel intellectual property. If I saw this module in an artist's rack I'd never buy another album from that artist. Art means nothing without ethics.

-- Sedalus

Art has nothing to do with money or politics.

-- AEROCATONE

in a perfect world... we can but dream!

What else do you think pairs well with the Pluck?

anything that can be patched after any other sound source - filters, vcas, delays, reverbs, other resonators etc etc

Ah, Jim, I'm not surprised you showed up here. You are, after all, one of the most vocal and prominent users in the various threads where Behringer is discussed.

Maybe I am, I don't know - I don't pay that much attention, at least to statistics... but what I'm usually saying is this - it's up to you - but really do you want to give your money to known bigots? do you actually want to put your money towards innovation or towards corporate greed? do you want to buy a product that if it fails will be repaired or just replaced and the failed module end up in landfill?

remember: the misdeeds of the owners of music tech companies are not reported in the mass media - unlike, say, those of movie or rock stars... the masses don't know about them - chances are quite high that a newbie doesn't know anything about the b-company or Synthrotek - or a few other companies in the past... they just see them as another eurorack manufacturer, albeit on the cheaper end of the scale & which they may see as a good or a bad thing...

and will some people "judge you" for your choices relating to these questions? - yes of course they will - as you are for my pointing out of these facts in order to inform people so that they can make informed choices for themselves - as you will be to some extent for everything, from your car, to the clothes you wear, to how your hair is cut, to your accent etc - but how much you care about that and how you deal with it is your issue

see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil - begets evil, does it not!

I've been around long enough to know that often buying the cheapest option means buying again and again, whilst buying a more expensive (and robust) item can mean that the item is repaired and therefore lasts longer... and ends up cheaper in the long run...

And, more importantly, at least to me is that people have the right to choose where their money goes... I, personally, want as little of my money as possible going into the hands of bigots (amongst others that I won't go into here - as it strays towards both politics and religion)

if the b-company stuck to original designs, cloning out of production synths (with a little extra thought put in - v triggers ffs!!) and modules, improved their quality slightly (nuts on jacks for instance) and minded what Uli says publicly etc - then I wouldn't have a problem with them at all, in fact I'd be singing their praises... as it is though they are effectively bullies & I've never liked those...

I see you cherry-picked the low hanging fruit and chose to focus on the exaggeration part of my comment;

then don't leave low hanging fruit or exaggerate - I try my best not to...

I will admit that it is possible or even probable that there are certain relative newcomers to the world of music gear who have not yet stumbled upon any of the countless discussions about Behringer.

It's an absolute certainty - I have seen it many, many times!

My apologies, I understand that in this context, I should be more careful of my semantics and avoid any such tools as exaggeration, extrapolation or hyperbole as that will quickly be used in an attempt to invalidate the rest of my points.

Indeed - it's a shame you didn't follow your own advice for the rest of your post... especially the following paragraph!!

Clearly, some people believe that it's so important to make certain that all potential users or purchasers are "informed" that they continue to beat the dead Behringer hate horse at every opportunity - nay, not just beating, grinding said horse to powder in which they revel like bathing chinchillas. Meanwhile, the occlusion of cognitive dissonance continues.

hyperbole... and showing off your vocabulary... Keep it simple, stupid - this is an international forum and not everyone will understand what you are saying!! again - the b-company are effectively bullying smaller companies by copying their products - the small companies can't afford to defend themselves in court - the b-company would bankrupt them without a thought... so the only way to stand up to them is to point people in other directions - and for good reason - and sometimes it'll be succesful and other times it won't...

as for "the occlusion of cognitive dissonance" - this is endemic and we are all to a certain extent guilty of it, including you (& me) - because all that really means is that we choose to see and believe what we want to see and believe because it's convenient - not necessarily because we are right - remember: no one thinks they are evil - but at least some of us are!

Take, for example, a comment in the thread about Four Play: "If I saw this module in an artist's rack I'd never buy another album from that artist. Art means nothing without ethics." Does this person hold these values across the board? Do users who make such comments also refuse to own any other product (music related or otherwise) made by companies who operate in the exact same way? If a painter uses cheap acrylic paint and pre-stretched canvases marketed under store brand in mega-corporate chain craft store known for importing mediocre quality products manufactured under dubious work conditions, shall we refuse to cast our gaze upon their works and shun them as lesser artists because they should be using expensive products crafted by small, local artisans?

well... that's definitely not a quote from me... and as such, I can't speak for that person... but there are issues here...

1 the provenance of the canvas/paint is much less obvious than that of the "offending" module - even if the artist posted their workspace in a similar way to the musician - the tubes of paint and canvases are less likely to be branded or be as distinctive... and therefore not so blatantly obvious

2 there's a big difference between passive and active consumption - the act of viewing a painting is more akin to listening to a piece of music on the radio or in a bar than it is to actually buying an album, whether it is digital or physical

3 most consumers of art (in whatever medium) are not aware of or interested in the tools/processes/time etc that are used to create the art... they only experience it as a delivered artwork - those of us that are aware have a right to be more discerning, if we choose to be... the only people who will take any stock of this are those who also practice in the same art form and often not then unless they are particularly interested in how a particular piece was made...

4 a lot of people would equate great artist with professional with making money above and beyond the absolute minimum needed to survive - at which point they can afford the nicer tools (and often write them off as business expenses) - I do think this is spurious though - I don't equate popular with good, necessarily, or conversely unpopular with bad - and of course there's no accounting for tastte (mine included) - I may be able to tell that it's well executed - Adele, for example - a reasonably proficient singer - but dreary, formulaic pap for the masses with absolutely no progression and no artistry- just good marketing... sell the same thing again and again - or photo-realistic painters - great draughtsmen, but again nothing to do with actual art...

I think the original point of this thread stands. Most of us aren't here because we want to be inundated with repetitive commentary about why this company or that is evil and should be avoided. Most of us are here because we want practical and accurate information about the functionality of modules we own or are considering. Rather than focus on the debate over how many people are aware vs unaware of the Behringer controversies, why not actually discuss the more relevant points here?

No the original point does not stand at all - it is tantamount to wanting censorship and the subjugation of freedom of speeach... and even worse - the maintaining of your 'freedom of speech' over mine (& others!)... it's like turning a blind eye to poverty, whilst sipping champagne

It's cherry picking what you want others to hear/not hear based upon your world view....

or a review site that only allows positive reviews... despite the fact that some of the things being reviewed are utter crap or have incredibly poor customer service and deserve to be called out as a warning to others...

you can't have your freedom of speech, or expect to have someone defend it, without extending the same courtesy to everyone else, and defending that right - no matter whether you agree with them or not... it's the basic underlying principle of freedom (of speech) - it's a double edged sword - in order for you to have yours, I must have mine too...

otherwise you end up with Farenheit 451 or The Handmaid's Tale being a reality - oh wait a minute we already have to a lesser extent

now in this case there are places where you can have exactly what you want - Modwiggler is an excellent forum for modular synthesis (despite, in my opinion their censorious sidelining of all criticism of the b-company into a singular thread - which I intenesly dislike, but understand due to Uli having threatened to sue gearspace & it's members) - or the b-company forum (where all criticism is deleted) - it's your choice

Another example comes from the Abacus thread: "If you care about the euro community avoid this." Why?

because some of us (hopefully a majority - or at least a substantial minority) would like small companies that are more likely to innovate survive long enough to do so... the chances of the b-company coming up with anything musically (or not, for that matter) innovative are near 0

Maybe some of us could give a rat's tail about the stuck up elitism of the so-called "community" which, while incredibly helpful users are plentiful, seems to be dominated largely by jerks who would snub new users who are dipping their toes into the modular waters with low-investment, low-risk modules that make it easy to get started without spending years researching what modules they need and saving up thousands of dollars.

I've never snubbed new users & I'm definitely not elitist - far from it - but I do really advise at least some research - including the owners of the companies they are buying from & I definitely have pointed new users in other directions - used doepfer modules for instance are not that much more expensive than b-company products and are much easier to resell, I would imagine - therefore being lower risk than even b-company

I also don't recommend the nifty bundle - too small a case, with poorly implemented features and modules that haven't got a particularly good reputation, which may be outgrown almost immediately and difficult to resell - possibly even difficult to give away...

nor do I recommend intellijel cases - unless the buyer has done enough research and some forward thinking and doesn't mind being tied into buying specific modules, which may or may not be suitable 6 months down the line or be completely unnecessary - midi and output modules in particular... although these days there are other manufacturers making alternatives

nor do I recommend Synthrotek modules or DIY kits - reportedly poor customer service & poor quality modules & an owner who made rape jokes on a public forum... and is unapologetic about it...

nor do I recommend a lot of (modules from) other brands - often due to them being overly expensive for what they are

mostly I recommend Doepfer (& full size mutable clones, now mutable is gone) or used modules and having a decent roster of utiltiies and learning to patch so that you don't need to buy, for example, a panner module or a crossfader - because for the 10% of the time you'll use it - you could have just patched it up yourself & then use the modules for something else when you don't need that functionality and I do recommend tiptop mantis cases - because they're the best bang for buck - taking into account manufacturer reputation/decent power supplu/ cost/ size... and befaco power excalibus power supplies - because they are quiet and inexpensive and DIYable...

but all these are, are my opinions, suggestions and recommendations... people can take heed or not, as they choose... I'm not forcing anyone to follow them at all! nor am I judging people for their choices... nor am I forcing anyone to read them or intending to offend anyone... remember: in the English language one cannot give offence, only take it!

way before the b-company entered the eurorack & semi-modular market - there were (& still are) many budget/inexpensive options - DIY, doepfer, ladik, takaab etc but they are tiny companies (doepfer is 4 people!!!) and they have miniscule marketing budgets, so do not have adverts in the wider synthesizer or music tech press & are not run by bigots (or at least not by ones who have publicly shown themselves to be so)... they are run by enthusiasts, who care deeply about what they are doing and understand not only the market but also the actual users of their modules - as they are themselves users of their (& others) products.... ie people in the industry who deserve to be supported by us - the community - buying their modules or kits or pcb/panel sets

and yes a lot of these modules are derivations of publically available circuits, but often with some embellishments & of course there are all the clones of mutable instruments modules, sometimes with useful embelishments, often not - made from publically available open-source circuit diagrams and code - an unintended side-effect of open sourcing... but they're not overtly obvious copies of in-production modules...

as for me: a good 1/2 of my modules (& racks & power supplies for that matter) are DIY and a sizeable proportion of the rest are doepfer - a relatively inexpensive and low risk way of getting what I want...

learning to solder will take you a couple of hours... and give the builder and user of these modules much more lasting satisfaction than buying similarly priced (usually inexpensive) modules

The guitar market has plenty of high end boutique instruments, amps and effects, but they wouldn't sell very well if there was no market because we shunned anybody who bought a low cost entry level guitar and amp made by a large predatory company with Chinese labor to learn on.

there's a huge difference in market size between, for example, guitars and modular synthesizers & there always has been & quite possibly always will be... the comparison is disingenious.... and that does at least to some extent need to be taken into account - the companies (mostly Fender and Gibson and Rickenbacker) who had their instruments copied, were by the time the copying took place, big enough to actually defend their copyrights/patents (& not always successfully - hence the proliferation of strat and les paul alikes) and the companies that were making the copies were comparatively small - this is not the case with modular synthesizer manufacturers, it's the exact opposite - especially against relatively big corporations in a legal climate where often the more expensive lawyer / more money to defend their POV wins... none of the eurorack companies have the money to get into this fight with the b-company - so just have to take it on the chin and hope that enough of us actually buy their products as opposed to the knock offs so that they can continue to make a living

guitars are in a lot of ways the mass produced fast moving consumer goods of musical instruments and have been for years - the companies who make these instruments managed to get big enough before the cloning started that they could (just about) survive - both Gibson and Fender have almost gone bankrupt at least a few times... and in some part stop the smaller companies

with modular & specifically the b-company in regards to the currently in-production modules they are cloning - this is the opposite - it's a large rich corporation - potentially making higher returns on investment, due to economies of scale and actually having the ability to make their own components, and reduced labour costs and probably reduced costs of doing business, taking the work of a small company and profiteering from it - and those small companies are definintely not making huge profits (the owners may be "comfortable", but they're not rich) - and if you don't believe me go and find on youtube Tom Erbe's video on the costs of developing and manufacturing modules and then find Tony Rolando's (Make Noise founder) correction - believe me, it's "bad enough" when you just take into consideration Tom's view point, before Tony wades in with "and you forgot this, and this, and this"...

I think Replicant phrased it neatly, "Do you own a socket set? If it wasn't made by Snap-On, it's a knockoff....but I certainly can't fault the average person for buying a cheaper one.
How many of us have Ikea furniture instead of buying handmade from small designers?"

-m
-- mrcoffee883

almost everything is a knock off if you go back far enough or stretch the point far enough... the house you live in, the car you drive, the clothes you wear, the computer you surf the internet with, the tv you watch, the radio you listen to etc etc - but these things are so ubiquitous and necessary to a greater or lesser extent - so again totally different category, both, sort of, fast moving consumer goods - or at least not niche - with much much bigger markets & are much more 'generic'* - remember: all musical instruments are niche products - and much different markets - specifically with ikea: everyone needs furniture to some extent and you buy what you like within a subset of what you can afford - a bed or table is not a niche product within a niche within a niche

in the case of snap-on - like the guitar companies - it's large companies products being copied by small companies and the probability of the concept of a socket set being ruled so generic that the copyright/patent can't practically be enforced (see fender stratocaster, above) - and the originator has to rely on good customer service, reputation and marketing to charge a premium for their product - or more likely, me having just read the wikipedia articles for both snap-on and socket set, snap-on don't actually appear to have invented the socket set or patented the idea - and so the "if it wasn't made by snap-on it's a knock off" may just be an urban myth - almost definitely started and proliferated by snap-on as a marketing ruse! (this might not be the case - wikipedia is not the absolute last word - but it's usually good enough!)

& no I don't own a socket set... yes I do own some things from ikea - bookshelves, picture frames, a solid wooden table, a solid wooden stool - and definitely not an uncomfortable, poorly built sofa that is built to fall apart in a couple of years...

nor do I buy 'fast fashion' - I generally want my purchases to last and be repairable etc.. not just end up in landfill

if I had my choice in the matter - I'd much rather live in a world without money, where everyone is free to do as they like (as long as they didn't hurt others) and have whatever they wish for (can you tell I was raised on Star Trek?) and innovation happens for it's own sake and not the pursuit of money or power - unfortunately, that's not the case, at least not at the moment

Anybody who's been on the internet at all for more than five minutes knows exactly how some people feel about Behringer, and why.

that's quite an assumption & based on the evidence on this and other forums it is blatently incorrect...

many people have no idea of the history and practices of the b-company or the behaviour/views of the 'owners'... especially if they are coming to eurorack (or semi-modular) synths without other experience in the music tech world... same goes for Synthrotek...

it's easy to forget that the knowledge that you have is not actually common knowledge, even if a large number of the people that you interact with on the internet are also party to this knowledge

the only really stupid thing is making uninformed decisions... and those who are uninformed have a right and a need to be informed - at least here, it is, to some extent, humourous and not swept under the carpet or summarily deleted, as it is on some other forums...

it's almost impossible to completely avoid the b-company - another music tribe brand manufactures (and is the sole manufacturer of) a lot of electircal components commonly used in music tech (including by quite a few higher end brands)... some of their products are the only choice if you want some specific synthesizers or modules...

I don't understand all the screaming and bashing of Behringer products.

then you haven't been buying music tech for a long time and/or haven't done a minimum level of due diligence

there's a big thread on modwiggler re the ethics of the company... I suggest you read at least some of it! it's not a new thing - they've been doing it since they started, at least 20 years ago and not just with synthesizers... cheap and shoddy knock offs of whatever music tech they think they can sell... and not treating customers or competitors or critics with any respect whatsoever...

let me correct this for you:

If you want to combine quality with design, buy Intellijel or Doepfer or others, if you want to buy inexpensively, buy

Doepfer or Ladik

Doepfer Quad-VCA is only slightly more expensive...

indeed - on a per vca price - so are veils clones or the intellijel for that matter - we're not talking about cwejman clones!

So people, make music or noise, but let each buyer make their own decision!
-- ricochet-75

but let's make sure that it's an informed decision and not based purely on price:

do you want to buy from (corporate) arseholes who only poorly copy other peoples designs or do you want to spend a few extra quid and give your money to small companies that actually design things (ok so those designs may be based on other things - but at least they put some effort in and may actually innovate from time to time)

given the amount of time I do spend on this and the other things I also have to do on xmas eve - no...

-- JimHowell1970

i would never ask for that time, again thanks for time and efforts you all, much appreciated, I don't want to bother you longer


happy xmas

-- Dan_ogq

actually I did just google "edge threshold synth module" - if you'd used "edges" plural & not "edge" I'd have worked out it was a mutable clone - as I would if you'd posted your rack when asked....

happy xmas

honestly? i am not sharing my rack because i don't want to waste time discussing every single choice I have made so far.

PS no idea what you mean by "edge/threshold" - unless you mean a comapator or envelope follower!

-- JimHowell1970

you didn't even have the time to check on google what an edge/threshold module is, i can imagine how deeply a whole rack would be analysed.

given the amount of time I do spend on this and the other things I also have to do on xmas eve - no...

and you're wrong and obviously didn't understand or chose to ignore the rest of the post - as I said it's not about the individual modules it' sabout the balance... I really don't care what modules you have or don't have - but I do see that given that we've continually said post your rack - you don't take advice well - not our problem - it's yours!

my honest advice - get another row and fill it with a variety of simple utilities... and that's all I can really do without seeing your rack

happy xmas

Across the industry I have experienced a +30% failure rate of Eurorack modules. This is unacceptable. These companies should be held responsible for their horrible, low quality production practices.
-- Humdrum

30% failure rate?!? I've not had a single module fail. Is the power in your rack suitable? Seems there might be something else going on.

-- farkas

I wouldn't go so far as not having had a single module fail - I've had 1 or 2 go - but that's out of a hundred over 7-8 years...

either the OP is incredibly unlucky or there is something causing the problems... quite possibly power as @farkas suggests!

as one of those responsible for championing utilities without going into a lot of detail as to why or how they are so useful there is method behind this "madness": promoting independant research - it's much more productive in the long term than spoonfeeding...

as for a definition of "utility" - simple modules that provide simple functions for multiplying, merging, derivation and modifying electical signals - not envelope/function generators or LFOs - they're modulation sources nor effects modules (sound modifiers) - envelope followers are utilities, waveshapers are imo borderline between being sound modifiers and utilities - I'd also class interfaces of any kind as utilities

in the formula in my signature lots of modules are in multiple categories - Maths is both a modulation source and an utility depending on how it's used/patched... personally I'd err towards modulation source - as that's how I generally use it - or don't really fit - sequencers are a good example... but might fit in as modulation sources or sound sources, depending on how fast they are clocked

I tend to categorise by primary intent

May I make a suggestion?

If you don't want people to see your rack as it is, make a copy of it, edit out the things you want to be private then make this copy Public so we can all see.

Whilst I can't see what the hell anyone would actually want to hide in terms of the modules that are in their rack - I do kind of agree with this...

Here are my racks (not 100% up to date - but close enough)

a balanced modular tends towards this:

sound sources < sound modifiers < modulation sources < utilities
-- JimHowell1970

depending how you count these, I would say my planned rack is not too far from your proportion, depending on how you would count a PAM or a O&C or a Threshold/Edge or many other modules with multiple functions, maybe i should browse the utilities section again and see if i find inspiration there.

It's quite a fluid formula - and open to interpretation - is tides a sound source or a modulation siurce? is a self-oscillating resonant filter a sound source or a sound modifier? I'd usually group things by primary intent within the confines of the rack...

Not all modules are meant to fit in - it's not a comprehensive theory of everything, it's a suggestion of a way to think in order to get the most versatility in patching in a modular for the least expense (& it scales incredibly well - from the smallest rack to Vince Clark proportions) and particularly to steer people away from just buying sound sources and modifiers - there are newbies who don't want to buy mixers as they think they are a waste of money, until of course they work out that they need one or more to get the most out of the expensive shiny modules that don't interact without them...

Pams and O&C & distings - and similar modules don't really fit - at least until in some cases the user has settled on a primary intent for the module - say using O&C as a quad

I'm not a big fan of multi-function modules... I only really have one - a disting mk4 (ok 2, I have a pams as well) - and I only really use it for one thing - tape delay (although if I desperately needed something else that it can do I would use it for that) - I prefer, especially with utiltiies - single function modules or small collections of functions that are all available at once - kinks, samara etc

I really think the best use for modules such as disting and O&C is to determine which modules you really need - so if you always use the O&C as a quad quantizer, buy a quad quantizer and use O&C for something else, and repeat...

If this is a planned rack (as opposed to a physically owned rack), as you state above, SERIOUSLY, the best thing you can do is share it... it will massively help us help you... don't be embarrased that it might be a pile of unusable crap or that you are spending thousands on a monosynth or that it's too big/small or whatever... the single worst thing you can do is not to share it...
there are people here (myself included) who have years & years of experience helping newbies design workable modular synthesizers - taking into account many many factors and many different styles of music - and we do it for free!!!

A picture paints a thousand words, as they say!!! - and the url of your public rack paints a thousand pictures

maybe some crazy utility module at 4/6 hp with a reasonable amount of no-nonsense trig ins, cv outs and vcas, or potentially even bigger if it also brings a 2 channel audio mixer might do the trick of adding more potential automations

-- Dan_ogq

this really sounds like too much in too small a space to be ergonomically pleasing - ie playable, ie no fun...

PS no idea what you mean by "edge/threshold" - unless you mean a comapator or envelope follower!

i don't think knowing I have that particular module would be relevant to the question, signals are signals no matter where they come from.

it's not about particular modules - it's about balance

for all we know you may have mostly sound sources and sound modifiers and hardly any modulation sources or utilities, you may or you may have adequate modulation sources and not enough utilities... seeing your rack really helps in that regard - I've seen and helped hundreds of people with their racks, over years - but I kind of need to get an overview of what's in the rack in order to give advice... it's a massive aid to thought...

a balanced modular tends towards this:

sound sources < sound modifiers < modulation sources < utilities

& most people at least in the early stages of their modular (the first few years) tend to have very few utilities

the solution for you rack may be remove a couple of vcos and an effect and add more utilties - or add a row and fill it with utilities... but it's impossible to tell without actually seeing it - imo any advice you get without us seeing your rack will be spurious at best

the reasoning is quite straightforward, patch cables go from input to output hence an optimised system should ideally have the same number of these, no matter which modules are included.
I have checked my system and there are 90ish inputs and 60ish outputs, and as because the audio signals already converge into one stereo/mono output (more or less), what's left out is just unused cv inputs (plus maybe one or two triggers).

not all modules need to be used in any given patch and not all inputs and outputs need to be utilized...

i think this is a situation many people can relate to, but I would like to explore solutions other than just stacking and duplicating modulations... for instance rectifiers seems quite a cheap and interesting solution

most utiltities are (comparatively) inexpensive, especially if you go fo doepfer or ladik or similar manufacturers and not instruo!
attenuverters, offsets, switches and matrix mixers are more...

you may be putting undue pressure on yourself to use everything all the time - I have 4 guitars, a bass, 20+ effects pedals, 4 amplifiers, about 1500hp of modules (both audio and video), a few keyboards, some outboard etc etc and amazingly I don't use all of it all of the time - in fact I use very little of it at any one time, at least in some part because it's physically impossible - I just use what I need when I need it...

a note about the ochd: i love the idea behind this module, but i would rather have 4 only lfos but with a reset input and knobs to tweak the frequencies...
-- Dan_ogq

at last something we can agree on! at least to some extent - unsynced modulation sources are great for adding a little bit of movement to synced modulation - matrrix mixers are your friend in this...

and what goes in racks?? ah yes, modules - what you already have WILL influence recommendations!

it's entirely possible that you have at least one, or more, module that couold be temporarily sidelined in order to fit something bigger in... but unless you share your rack we won't know...

my recommendation would be for a matrix mixer, preferably doepfer, for ergonomics reasons... and some stack cables...

another possibility might be a sequential switch...

but as far as I know you already have these...

do yourself a favour - make your rack public and copy and paste the url into the thread!!!

there's no need to use every input or output...

it might be a good idea to share the url of your public rack so we can see what you have - it usually helps steer the recommendations a bit...

OK

Plaits is a different story... Mutable Instruments stopped, right? Who will repair if I buy second hand?

there are plenty iof people who can repair mutable modules - all but beads are completely open source, both hardware and software... a lot of the other clone manufacturers - After Later Audio etc I suspect will repair their modules if they need it - b-company on the otherhand will probably just bin it and give you a new one - not very environmentally friendly!

it might be an idea to share the url of your public rack - so we can see what you intend to buy... and what your budget is - both initial and ongoing - plus the case you intend to use...

usually people mock up their racks and paste the url when posting questions - it really helps and then list the extra stuff they have... this might be an idea for you?

I wouldn't want the microcosm as end of chain processing - I think things like that tend to work better when processing singke voices as opposed to many - although reverb is always good on full mixes...

sounds like you want a mixer... possibly an external one - I used a yamaha mg10 for quite a while - reasonably inexpensive

hmmmm.... I think you'd be much better off with a bigger case and something like a keystep pro... because you wiull need the expansion space almost immediately with this setup... I'd really suggest a great deal more research before parting with cash....

there are fundamental things missing...

your description of the intellijel adsr's compactness made me chuckle... as did the "you can never have too many lfos" when there's only 1 in there - the "you can never have too many.." meme is usually used for vcas...

speaking of which, there are no vcas to plug the envelope generator into... ok there's one on the tonestar, but that already has an adsr built in...

buchla is often linked with lpgs (not filters) which are also none existant... these are a cross between vcas and low pass filters...

whilst the tonestar is a voice - the tiptop/buchla module is a dual vco - you will see on the tonestar that the vco is a small part of the voice... they have no

reverb and delay are both incredibly useful...

take a look at my signature and think long & hard about how you might apply this to a rack that you might want...

seriously consider a minimum viable synth (at least to start):

a sound source (possibly rthe tiptop buchla one), a sound modifier (possibly 1 of the filters), a modulation source (you'll want more than 1 channel - a quad is a good idea, batumi - or possibly maths - particularly if you are into west coast serge/buchlaesque concepts), a way to listen (a quad cascading vca will work wonders as a basic mono output - a veils clone) and a way to play (maybe a keystep pro - or a pams - which could also double as a modulation source and a random pitch source) and a basic utility module for attenuation/inversion/offset (happy nerding 3 * mia)

another good idea is to work out what modules you want (based around how many voices you want) what modules each voice will need, what supporting modules they will need when combined and then work out how much rack space you need - leaving a good 25% of any rack you buy free for expansion - you will need it... instead of deciding on a case because it appears to be convenient...

if you want to fit the 4 voices that the nifty keys is designed for you, into it, you need to go much more compact with every module...

the besst thing to do in many ways is to start with very little - ie a minimum viable synth... a sound source, a modulation source, a sound modifier, a way to play and a way to listen... plus maybe a basic utility...

so:

sound source - literally any will do - plaits clones are popular - as they have a lot of variety

modulation source - pams or maths are both great - although both complex (in different ways) - 1 is programmable with a simple menu system - the other is programmable with patch cables (this is a very powerful method and will transfer to all patching - see the 'maths illustrated supplement for further details - but really requires a lot of deep thought about what, when and how to get the most out of it)

a sound modifier - a low pass filter is a good start - doepfer make some inexpensive classics - moog, wasp, sem etc... and a multifx is another useful choice if you want to push the boat out a bit further - I'd go fx aid pro (screen exponentially improves the user experience)

a way to play - if the modulation source is Pams - then that can be a good start - it can do quantized stepped random pitch - otherwise it really depends on you...

a way to listen - a quad cascading vca such as a veils clone is a great starting point, although probably mono - which isn't really that big a deal - it will do the job and always be useful!

an utility - a module that can do attenuation/inversion/offset/mixing is also a good investment - possibly the best is the happy nerding 3 * mia - but there are others...

learn these modules inside and out and once you have done that (probably weeks, if not months) start adding slowly, 1 or 2 modules at a time, and repeating... try to keep a note of what you are missing as you go...

hope this helps...

Wow, what a thoughtful reply! I was just making notes to self for future idea.

I got this case as I wanted the spectraphon and did not have any room for this giant in my two cases. Once I have a house, I'll allow myself to buy a large eurorack case and have my "studio" somehwere other than the hall.

-- k0s0

sounds like a plan - sometimes it's hard to tell if people are newbies or not...

good luck wiht the house!!!

...Maybe I want the Nautilus delay with MI Veils or equivalent.
-- k0s0

I'd almost definitely want a quad cascading vca... veils or a clone is a good choice...

and probably a delay and a reverb...

don't think I'd want the nifty bundle pedals though... they don't have good reputations & are hard to resell...

tbh with the spectraphon - I'd want a bigger case... not enough room for support modules in a nifty case...

take a look at my signature - think it over for a while... then think about the modules you want and need to support it and then pick a case to house them, preferably leaving some space to expand (20% or so at least)

hexmix seems like overkill...

only 1 very large sound source?

only 1 very large effect?

possibly too much modulation...

not enough utilities besides the huge mixer...

rosie is discontinued (I think) & do you really need an output module? maybe not

black maths is kinda unobtanium unless you buy a shared system...

I'd suggest taking a look at my signature and spending some time thinking about it and how it relates bith to your rack and mission statement...

oh look and here's the actual link:

I'm not going to have that much of a go at the b-company modules - it's a matter of (your) conscience and ethics if you buy them or not - but supporting small manufacturers (ie everyone but the b-company) - who are more likely to inovate - is definitely a better way to go imo & I'd replace all of those if it was me...

other modules that could be removed:

scales... midi to cv and pitch cv from Ableton etc should be quantized and Pams can be used as a quantizer (& random pitch source) amongst other things... so why scales?????

link... can you not just use 1/8" -> 1/4" cables???

magneto - it's very large in such a small system - there are many other delays out there...

btw the befaco instrument interface is great!

do you really need so many inputs???? not enough mixing capability to take advantage of them in such a small rack with so little processing???

which leads to not enough utilities to support the modules... (including mixing)

I'd suggest taking a look at my signature and spending some time thinking about it and how it relates bith to your rack and mission statement...

EDITED Dec 6th 2023, 20:31

I'm planning on buiding a eurorack to connect to a keyboard for dugeon synth and dark ambient style music. Capable of soft, vintage and retro sound scapes. I'd like to keep everything minimal. Not too many modules with a small case build (65hp). Modules im looking for would be an fm oscillator, a filter, envelope controls (adsr), some vintage or lofi effects. And some delay reverb modules at the end.
-- Meenthgrea

with only 65hp you have run out of space before you fulfill your list of wanted modules - at least in any way that takes basic ergonomics, ie playability, into account... it is not unusual for newbies to

this does not include any space for the modules that you have left out that are needed to support the modules you think you want - specifically modulation and utilities... or for any expansion at a later date

further note - an fm oscillator is often paired with another vco in order to facilitate audio rate fm (

NB - the tex-mix master section requires at least 1 of the 4 * (stereo/mono) channel modules to work

I strongly suggest starting with a substantially larger case - tiptop mantis is an excellent starter case & still portable (unless you are a small child) - or significantly rethinking what will go in the case - for example a lot of the effects could be handled by effects pedals (don't forget some pedal interfaces for matching volume/impedence)

take a look at my signature & spend a significant amount of time considering the contents and how they would appky to any modular synth you might want to construct & then revisit the 'dream rack' applying these thoughts...

I'd also strongly recommend starting with a minimum viable synth - a sound source, a sound modifier, a modulation source, a way to play and a way to listen... plus an attenuverter/offset module (happy nerding 3 * mia for example) and a quad cascading vca - some of these functions may be overlap on modules - a Pams can do modulation & envelopes and quantized stepped random for instance & a quad cascading vca can also be used as a mono output

hint: start with the modules that are both wanted and needed and NOT the case

hope this helps...

EDITED Dec 3rd 2023, 19:17

can't agree more with what @HGSynth is saying above...

I'm not convinced more modulation is needed, in fact I'd probably go with less - and add more utilities to leverage the modulation that's there to produce more (& more interesting) modulation...

so more mixers (& usually I'd say more vcas - but I think you have more than enough) especially and End Of Chain Mixer (or more sub mixers) & at least 1 matrix mixer (predominantly for modulation purposes) would be useful...

more things like switches, attenuverters, clock dividers etc & even some mults... & yes I know pams can do a lot of clock division - but an external one is also useful... for example send an audio signal into a clock divider - /2 = -1ve, /4 = -2ve squarewave outputs (bassline)

also some control modules would be a good idea - so you can make big overall changes easily - but at that point an extra case might be useful - so you can have one vertical and one horizontal... this would also make room for a decent sequencer (I like the erica black) & EOC mixer...

one of those analogies @HGSynth mentioned above is my signature... take a look at it and spend some time thinking about it and how it applies to your rack... especially the formula!

hope this helps...

as i said i am completely inexperienced, what would be a setup that would help me get into generative music well. thanks. can you give me some concrete suggestions so i can research further?

-- wrna1

there are a load of hints above to further your research... and get you started...

I'd also at least try to answer the questions posed above!!!

if you can go to an actual store thaty sells modules - this can be difficult depending where you live

as a start:

get a case - I recommend a mantis as a good starter...

get a sound source, a modulation source, a sound modifier, a way to play and a way to listen...

this will give you a minimum viable synth - with quantized random looping a melody, modulation and an effect and you will learn the basics of modular - once you have learnt these modules quite well you can think about adding more modules - another sound source (if you started with digital go analog - or vice versa) - filter(s) - more modulation - more utilities - a different way to sequence etc etc - I'd suggest only 1 or 2 at a time so you can learn the new module(s) & how they interact with the old modules before before

a Pam's (new or pro - read the manuals and compare functionality/prices/availability) will cover modulation and a way to play

for a sound source almost any vco will do - you can sort by popular - either a digital or analog one will do... if you are going for mutable clones then After Later Audio make full size ones as do a couple of other manufacturers - I'd avoid micro modules (hard to tune) - but make sure you google and read aas many opinions as possible - there's at least 1 that gets both good and very bad reports - especially for customer service

for a sound modifier - the FX Aid pro - is easy to use and has modulation/ a scope* built in etc and includes delays/reverbs/filters/loads of other stuff for you to explore and help work out what you actually need - you will probably want at least one filter per voice - but for starters the fx aid pro has filters... otherwise doepfer have some inexpensive classics - the wasp is popular as is the SEM, with good reason

for a way to listen - a good quad cascading vca - such as a veils clone - is a good investment - vcas are for modulation/cv as much as for audio... and will act perfectly well as a mono output to start with... stereo can come later if you want/need it...

add in a happy nerding 3 * mia - mix/invert/attenuate/offset

so 5 modules to start - a vco, a Pam's (pro/new), an FX Aid Pro, a Veils clone and a happy nerding 3 * mia

buy some stackcables and some regular patch cables

you will need blind panels (cardboard will work perfectly) - to stop you dropping cables onto tthe busboard and shorting out the electrics

I'd also recommend going to the modwiggler 1u & 3u subforum and reading the 'newbies start here' and 'all you need to know about power' threads - at least the first couple of pages...

if you have questions, ask... no such thing as a stupid question etc...

• I'm not overly convinced by scopes - yes they can help visualise what a modulation source is doing - but we're working with audio - so use your ears - plug a modulation source into a vco's pitch input and you will hear what it is doing by the change in pitch

EDITED Dec 2nd 2023, 11:54

I'm actually pretty jazzed by this feedback. In retrospect, I eschewed a lot of audio manipulation modules until I was confident that I had an otherwise solidly working instrument and understood how to use a lot of the more "functional" modules

good

(I tried to take @JimHowell1970's tagline seriously).

as should everyone!!!!

Matrix mixers being a good example - it took quite a while until I actually understood just how flexible and useful one could be in a patch, so now I'm excited for number two (and a stereo one, at that!). Perhaps that A-119 should get a closer look as well, for the same reason.

they are extremely versatile, aren't they...

So it's good to know that my planned rack is in a place where I can explore these sound sculpting modules more comfortably while also saving hp for the future. It's a little overwhelming trying to choose between the vast number of high-quality modules out there while worrying if the amazing demo videos that I rely upon represent a module's actual capabilities or rather the patching talents (and complementary background modules) of the musician filming. Particularly since it seems like a new game changer is coming out every few months. I just finished watching hours on the Spectraphon, for example. To that end, I'll definitely consider the Nautilus, as I see it covers ground I'm otherwise missing and seems fun to play (an issue of key importance to me nowawadays, and one that should have been from the very beginning).

I very rarely watch new module demos... I might scan a modwiggler thread... but very rarely do I find something I want to add...

The Sinfonion as well, which I had not previously looked too closely at since I didn't realize my rack was large enough to support it, but might be a step in a very interesting direction, particularly with how many voices I plan to have available.

it's a great module - like almost all modules it's slightly flawed though... it really could have done with a built in sequencer to string song parts into songs... it's pretty simple to do, but needs a separate step sequencer...

Regarding utilities, I'm a true believer now, so I'm all ears for suggestions. Figuring out mid-patch that I'm lacking the right number of attenuators or inverters or whatevers to accomplish my musical goal is an annoying tradition I'm not looking to continue. Aside from the aforementioned matrix mixers, I'd love to hear what other utilty modules you would consider integral to your systems.

swirthes, trigger delays, sample & hold, track & hold, clock dividers - pretty much everything...

I'm sure I'll be back in 6 months with an updated version of this question, but that's probably how it should be (we're all learning here, afterall). Thanks again!

highly likely! have fun

always difficult to comment on racks of this size... looks reasonably comprehensive... I like and approve of the dual matrix mixers - I also have 2 and may add more in the future!

things I would add - but only in so much as they make life easier for me - a sinfonion (all the quantization etc needs in 1 place & chord progressions) & a fx aid pro (much easier to work with than the smaller ones)

I'd probably want more utilities too - I can never have too many....

Hello i am new and want to get into the eurorack world, what i am interested in is generative music. would this be a suitable starter setup, i could also imagine integrating my digitakt or my DAW.

what do i have to consider?

the ethics of buying from the b-company.... cheap(ly made), dreary and morally repugnant... but that's up to you... and your conscience

I'd go slower (ie start with fewer modules) and buy the real ones where possible - or clones from smaller companies, where possible (ie totally doable for not that much more cash)

I'd definitely bypass the fx module... find the cash and get an fx aid pro!!! way more fx, modulation inputs (one of the most important things in modular & a basic built in scope!

& the victor - search for it on modwiggler! - basically lacking modulation inputs - one of the most important things in modular and especially in 'generative' music

I'd get a tiptop mantis instead of the caixa - and get the utilities that you actually need - not what nano think you do... it's your custom synth, not theirs! this will also leave you with space to add more modules - which you will inevitably want to do sooner or later

why the marbles clone and the pico sequencer and pams and the midi->cv? all can do quantized pitch & gate - & when all of these include quantization - why scales??? ie too much sequencing - not enough of everything else!!!! I found the pico sequencer frustrating - especially the reset! - I would drop at least 1 & scales & if you want

why pam's new workout and not pams pro workout?

why a dedicated euclidean trigger sequencer when Pams can do euclidean?

not enough modulation... not enough utilities...

& no filters??? again a cornerstone of most modular synthesis...

take a look at my signature and take some time to seriously understand it - especially the formula - which is a rough guide to getting the most versatility (in patching) for the least expense...

here's the link:

So If I dont change the PSU of the Palette case i have no choice but powering via +12 & -12v , right?
I dont get whats actually the benefit from powering over the +5v rail, which I have not yet used at all

-- antimidas

correct you'll need to power the hermod+ with the +/-12v rails

the advantage of being able to use the 5v rail is that, if you are short on 12v and have a lot of 5v available, then you can use that instead...

try to get a full size exact clone - there are a few these days - after later audio etc...

proper knobs are better for tuning than trimmers

Hi, not to steal your thread but I've been looking into using an outboard mixer in the future to have functionality to record individual outputs directly into Ableton...

From looking around thinking along the lines of:
Presonus StudioLive AR12 or 16c, Signature 12 MTK, Tascam Model 12 Analog Mixer with Digital Recorder...

Anyone have any experience of doing this AND/OR recommendations of product above or other?

-- Traxam

no, but - make sure whatever you do get has proper multitracking and attenuators (possibly called pads) on the way in...

Hi Jim. Planning on synching it (somehow) to my Microfreak.

that will work - clock out ofd microfreak into whatever you are syncing to - just make sure you set both clocks appropriately... see the manuals

While 32 hp is very limited, it's fun to see how much I can coax out of these for live gigs.

well good luck with that...

The VCMC by Befaco can be my solution, it is expansive !

there's also it's little brother CVThing, which is cheaper... also both are available as kits...

what are you going to sync to anyway?

thank you so so much for the reply!! super useful.

No problem, good!

oh i wish i had a mom32, i have a midi keyboard komplete kontrol m32 :) i'd trade anytime hehe

ah I misread (or mis-assumed) - I only really know modulars, guitars, effect pedals and some older synth stuff

hehe touchè the original plan was to get plaits, but then a quite cheap rings came about and i couldn't let it go :) but get your point i'll definitely keep it in mind.

often happens like that...

sweet, i'll swap things out later and evenirally get the bigger AID

I'd really prioritise the pro - I had the xl for at least a year before the pro came out & like a lot of these multi-function modules it got stuck on a single algorithm... until I bought the pro... plus the pro has a basic scope built in which beginners often find useful - although patching whatever signal into a simple vco (some of the plaits modes will work) and listening is just as good if not better (use your ears not your eyes!!!)

the MIDI i guess would be to play it piano style, but yes surely not my top priority.

yeah but remember not polyphonic...

do you have any suggestion for the mixer?

just to recap
Pam -> (plaits & rings ) -> maths -> mixer -> veils -> fx aid pro

tbh you could use veils as a mixer

do you know if i could trigger randomic/generative sequences with these modules alone or then i would need to buy beads (clones) or something similar ?do you have any suggestions?

Pams will do all that - read the manual... if you don't understand anything - just ask (no stupid questions etc)

& I think you mean marbles not beads, marbles is a (quantized) random cv and gate generaor, beads is a granular/delay/reverb and the only mutable module not open sourced (may be in the future, only Emilie knows) so could be expensive

Hey, thanks

I think you are right, Plonk is not needed here as Squid is a sound source on it's own.
The massive filter seemed a good idea as it is actually 2 filters with drive and fm so it can handle 2 sound sources.

there are smaller filters that will do this... also 2 individual filters is often a good idea - they sound different...

I will have a look at zadar and batumi expander as I am not aware of them

read the manuals thoroughly and make sure you understand them before you buy the modules = less surprises - if you have questions, ask...

I was thinkin about doing the mixing on the iPad but if space alows it maybe submixing would be usefull

sub mixing is for adding sound sources oir individual waveforms before processing with for example a filter...

It is something I do in VCV with S&H + VCA + polyphonic quantizer and logic. The idea is to make melodic progressions by grabing a note from the melody and randomly routing it back to the root note input of the quantizer. I also try to change rythms and add silence in the same way. I use logic to space events out or add randomness. But I am not very experienced so maybe there are better ways to do that.

Pams can do this on it's own...

Squid could also be used as a way of building a library off sounds created with the modular. These sound can then be triggered or sequenced and give me 8 more sound sources.

imo that is a lot of sound sources in such a small case - where often each sound source will want processing...

it might be an idea to diagram your patch... so we can work out where your 'intermittent +ve voltage' is coming from

you could just use the envelope for the kick and inverrt it for ducking vcas... no need to envelope follow the kick...

there are plenty of things you could do with mom32 - just send sync or a sequence or modulation - or a combination of all 3 - remember mom's pitch is offset though...

1 of everything? but 2 sound sources - see my signature to see how to get the most versatility from your patching for least expense... have a good long think about how this (especially the formula) applies to your rack

I'd not buy a fx aid - I'd buy the pro version though - why? ergonomics, modulation and most importantly being able to tell which algo you are using without a cheat sheet - if you decide you need a second fx aid at some point you can use the pro as an inrack cheat sheet - just sync the 1st 32 algos - so a regular or an xl would be fine

no idea about the alm cases - I'd suggest a tiptop mantis - best bang for buck case (hp/cost/decent quiet power/manufacturer reputation)

nothing screams wrong
why would you want midi?
I think you'll want a bigger mixer than the field kit

I'd add a matrix mixer next... really useful for getting more interesting (& attenuated/attenuverted) modulation out of what you have there

tbh I'd buy pams, maths, a matrix mixer and a quad vca (I'd go for a veils clone for this though) to start... and then an fx aid pro

hope this helps

Since I can't do without the 914 I plan to combine it with the 995 and 903A and a ADDAC104 in a second 48 HP case. What do you think?

Yeah, when you have tasted blood once ...
-- Jockl

just get a proper sized case so you don't keep buying them - a tip top mantis for example

take a look at my signature and think about it for a while and how it may relate to your rack...

& the link (cos jpgs suck)

& onto remarks:

too many sound sources for this size rack... 1 per row is a good rule of thumb... that way you end up with enough space for the support modules that they need to get the most out of them

sequencer and quantizer? quantixer not really necessary as sequencer includes quantizer...and Pams can alsoo act aas a quantizer if needed

how are you intending to use the sampler??? percussion? if so do you really need the plonk?

only 1 massive filter? I'd go for something smaller... so there's more space for something else...

no expanders for zadar/batumi? they are useful...

no submixing? I'd go for a happy nerding 3 * vca - it'll add a vc mixer in...

take a look at my signature and think about how it relates to your rack - the formula especially gives more versatility in 0patching for least expense...

not convinced of the need for a logic module - pams has logic built in...

I'd want a matrix mixer for combining modulation sources to make more interesting ones

the rack is a weird size usually 84hp or 104hp is standard - not 86hp - I'd go for 104hp, this way you will have space to expand and add functions you've missed... or as you start buying modules those you decide you want instead - no plan survives contact with the enemy (in this case the enemy is you)

having mixing and effects in the rack are actually great ideas - it's modular you can connect them however you feel like - delay before a filter... reverb before a vca... mixing sound sources before filtering or whatever - experimentation is key

EDITED Nov 26th 2023, 02:41

yes via a computer - there is no mid ir cv on the plotter

the fh-2 is not the right module - it is "midi to cv" you need "cv to midi cc" - befaco and addac make them - if you can find something to convert that to svg - looks like it can cope with more than that - jpgs etc too

take a look at processing - it can definitely handle midi inputs - and you can tell them what to do - I'm sure there's a graphic output library for it - if it's not svg then there are prograams that can convert whatever to whatever... how you interpret the midi cc messages would be up to you... it's very simple java programming and there are lots of examples

that rebel technology module looks very similar to the befaco and as they sit next to each other and collaborate I suspect it's the same module... but I might be wrong

it looks like it's more suited to working with a computer (ie no MIDI or CV inputs) - I'd look to see if any of the supported software on whatever computer can accept midi input... if so then you'd need a cv to midi module - probably one that outputs MIDI CC not notes...

there may also be ways to generate jpgs from audio - you might want to look at processing3 or similar - again you'll probably need a cv -> midi cc module

good luck... & let us know how it turns out & show some pics if you manage to get it to work!

Suggestion: add 'Inverter' to the list of available options for module functions.
-- MPCman

it's already there, although not as 'Inverter' - Polarizer - means the same thing